[ home / overboard / sfw / alt / cytube] [ leftypol / b / WRK / hobby / tech / edu / ga / ent / music / 777 / posad / i / a / lgbt / R9K / dead ] [ meta ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Email
Subject
Comment
Captcha
Tor Only

Flag
File
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)

Matrix   IRC Chat   Mumble


File: 1620014239406.png ( 631.69 KB , 1121x969 , 906fbd527163e7a0500c40409a….png )

 No.210868[Last 50 Posts]

READING
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/
For a complete reading list, see: https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2020/05/01/two-reading-lists/

Cockshott's Patreon
https://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/

Cockshott's youtube channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ

Cockshott's Blogs
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/
http://paulcockshott.co.uk/

Cockshott's videos torrent archive
Here's the torrent with all of Paul Cockshott's YouTube channel videos up to 27/10/2020 (i.e. Eliminating inequality):
Magnet link:
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:d5e5cc7a91228fef2ea213f816b27cfea8185961&dn=Paul%5FCockshott%5F%28October%5F27th%5F2020%29&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.opentrackr.org%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.to%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.me%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.internetwarriors.net%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.leechers-paradise.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.cyberia.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fexodus.desync.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fexplodie.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fp4p.arenabg.ch%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Ftracker1.itzmx.com%3A8080%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker3.itzmx.com%3A6961%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.zerobytes.xyz%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.tiny-vps.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ds.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.stealth.si%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.si%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.torrent.eu.org%3A451%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fretracker.lanta-net.ru%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fopen.acgnxtracker.com%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.moeking.me%3A6969%2Fannounce
Torrent file:
https://anonymousfiles.io/RileL0Sn/

This thread is for the discussion of cybersocialism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and of course the great immortal scientist himself, WILLIAM PAUL COCKSHOTT.

Archives of previous thread
https://archive.is/uNCEY
https://web.archive.org/web/20201218152831/https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/997358.html
>>

 No.210896

File: 1620014622207.png ( 208.79 KB , 558x458 , image007.png )

Rare Cockshott
>>

 No.215434

Previous thread has been found, and as it was at bump limit moved to the archive
>>>/leftypol_archive/10737
>>

 No.215442

File: 1620025268339.jpg ( 28.89 KB , 188x338 , Sickle_and_Hammer.jpg )

>>

 No.215448

>>215434
Is there some way I can access the archives various threads or is it hidden?
>>

 No.216002

>>215448
currently all the threads archived are at >>>/leftypol_archive/
are you not able to see that board?
>>

 No.216140

>>216002
No I wasn't able to see it. Thanks anyway
>>

 No.216217

We were this close to greatness fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
>>

 No.216220

basado thread thanks for the recreation
>>

 No.217491

File: 1620066128838.png ( 154.64 KB , 1312x600 , masterbation problem.png )

Pauls career is OVER
>>

 No.217503

>>217491
Noooo Paul!!!!!
>>

 No.217601

>>217503
It’s finished it’s over it’s time to expect wage slavery know
>>

 No.217619

How's Cockshott been doing? I remember once an anon from 8chan's /leftypol/ tried to have him come for an AMA in the cybersoc thread at the time but he got mad because the anon called him a n*ggerfaggot or something like that.
>>

 No.217638

>>217619
>he got mad because the anon called him a n*ggerfaggot
Wow, he got mad over this? What a snowflake
>>

 No.217642

>>217619
He’s doing alright he channel is growing slowly but steadily
>>

 No.217645

>>217638
That was the discussion at the time, I remember thinking the anon was a fucking dumbass for wasting the chance like that.
>>

 No.217647

>>217642
Why does Cockshott get no support from Breadtube?
>>

 No.217653

>>217647
He is dangerously based. Also he doesn't subscribe to modern queer theory.
>>

 No.217655

>>217647
Because he is not an intersectional market “socialist” that spends all his time advocating for trans rights
>>

 No.217656

>>217647
Too far left, too much complicated theory. Kind of represents how much of the population feels about politics, really.
>>

 No.217742

>>217647
He's a communist they're a bunch of libs simple as.
>>

 No.217778

Hey guys, here's some interesting stuff I thought could be added to the reading list, since these guys have influenced Cockshott:
Leonid Kantorovich - The Best Use of Economic Resources
Wassily Leontief - Input-Output Economics
Oskar Lange - Introduction to Economic Cybernetics
>>

 No.217863

how do we advance towards the new socialism?
we need political ideas, strategies, propaganda. i'm so fucking tired of socialism being stuck in time.
some ideas:
>political party based on direct democracy
>simulating a nation's economy and doing a video about it
>shilling cockshott everywhere
>translating material into other languages
>>

 No.217875

>>217778

based anon thanks
>>

 No.217881

>>217655
>>217653
>>217647
>>217656
Cockshott's takes on social issues are too unpopular and boomer, plus most breadtubers are just social democrats and liberals who shill worker coops as the height of left wing thought and disdain actual communism or anything that would lead to it
>>

 No.217915

>>217647
what >>217881 says. it's better to shill dickblast on beardtube rather than breadtube. hakim has been doing this lately. we should get dankey, luna and that irish commie on board too
>>

 No.217922

>>217863
Find a Chinese village that could benefit heavily from Cockshott's work
>>

 No.218080

>>217778
Nice finds anon
>>

 No.218280

>>217915
>we should get dankey
the guy has no reach and doesn't make vids anymore
>>

 No.218388

>>217863
as i said countless times, the only country on the planet that would entertain the idea of a more digital planned economy is north korea, but they would first need:

• an abundant supply of electricity and reliable electric power infrastructure in every city, town and village
• telecommunications infrastructure in every city, town and village
• every single store, restaurant, hotel, train station, etc. in the country having POS systems and connected to the network

then you can start talking about digital labor voucher cards and more ambitious stuff. north korea doesn't meet any of these requirements, not even pyongyang
>>

 No.218427

Can someone explain cockshott’s grading system for labor hours? I understand that he wants to equalize pay to some extent across professions, but to grade the amount of labor productivity within it as a, b, or c.

Can someone also explain to me the idea of certain jobs demanding rent?
>>

 No.218493

>>218388
to be honest it's not unreasonable to look to doing this
>>

 No.218968

>>218388
Actually existing socialism has historically been faced with three possibilities: First, maintaining a stagnant status quo. Second, abandoning socialism. And third, the Chinese path.

The country is currently pursuing the first option. Some limited market reforms have been made, but the the economy is generally being run as it was prior to the collapse.

The country managed to avoid the second possibility during the general dissolution of actually existing socialism, managing to ward off external threats through military deterrence and internal threats by maintaining high ideological fervor coupled with severe state repression. They were uniquely suited to this task because of their initial extreme level of militarization on one hand, and their entrenched personality cult and developed security apparatus on the other. These attributes can largely be attributed to them essentially bordering the US military, a circumstance that forces high military spending, the development of some sort of "societal glue" and the maintenance of a competent security apparatus, all of which are necessary to maintain the status quo of a stagnant socialist state. The difference between them and other border states (such as the DDR) being that they are surrounded by water to the east and west and a (generally) friendly power to the north. They also have an extremely favorable terrain when it comes to defense. In contrast, the DDR would have been surrounded by hostile powers on all sides after the collapse of the rest of the Soviet block. This also applies in the Cuban case.

The third possibility is contingent on UN sanctions being lifted. As long as the great powers value their nuclear monopoly over normalization with the DPRK and as long as the DPRK values nuclear deterrence over lifting UN sanctions; socialism with Korean characteristics is not a valid exit plan. The DPRK is entirely unique among the surviving actually existing socialist states in that it has trapped itself in the role of a stagnant status quo, unable to integrate into the world market. Cuba is in a similar situation, unable to fully integrate into the world market because of US sanctions. The main difference being that these sanctions are more or less kept going by sheer inertia on the part of the US, while sanctions against the DPRK is a top priority of the entire planet because of their challenge to nuclear monopoly.

Being shut out of the second and third possibilities forces the country to maintain their stagnant status quo. Not having any other options, they are left only with the task of rationalizing their current economic system. In other words, they can either make their planning more efficient or replace it with market forces. So far, they have more or less focused on the latter. However, they are also left in a position that is uniquely favorable to the development of contemporary cybernetic planning. The same bureaucratic tendencies that opposed these sorts of initiatives in the Soviet Union currently exist in the DPRK, but they also have 30 additional years of technological growth.

In conclusion, they probably represent the best shot we are ever going to get at this, for better or worse.
>>

 No.219683

>>218280
he's actually started making videos again. the boomers in the PCUSA wanted to vet every one of his videos. this obviously makes streaming impossible. he eventually got fed up with their bs and left the party
>>

 No.219789

lotsa math ITT: >>203975
STEMfag input/crit is welcoomed
>>

 No.219829

>>219789
I ain't reading all that shit. what specifically do you want input on?
>>

 No.219943

>>217863
You need to start small. Start by building a network of think tanks and/or cultural centers (latter would be better) where you live (to start a think tank you just need a Twitter handle), then when you get somewhat big contact your local communist org.
>>

 No.219948

>>218280
He does but he's got on the Sakai cringe train.
>>

 No.220536

>>218427
>Can someone explain cockshott’s grading system for labor hours?
There's not much to explain here as it isn't fleshed out, it's just a remark that we shouldn't totally equalize remuneration and that remuneration sums within groups should be capped. How many grades there are and how much highest and lowest grade differ in pay and even who is doing the grading here is not set in stone.
>Can someone also explain to me the idea of certain jobs demanding rent?
It's impossible to know everything in advance so bottleneck situations will arise where certain skilled workers are in high demand and to get them to work overtime we might have to ramp up their remuneration significantly despite our egalitarian goals.
>>219789
That value-transfer "model" there got torn apart already in that thread.
>>

 No.220576

>>220536
Cockshott's grading system was not about passing judgement on workers. It was about adapting the system to the actually existing people and he probably build that in as a check on a managerial strata that tries to make people conform to an idealism.
>>

 No.220625

>>220576
>Cockshott's grading system was not about passing judgement on workers.
It does that.
>>

 No.221498

can someone post the pdf where cockshott talks about his work in relation to that indian philsopher?

furthermore can we come up with a torrent of all his pdfs that hes ever written similar to that we have of the videos?
>>

 No.223094

>>221498
>furthermore can we come up with a torrent of all his pdfs that hes ever written
even the one on the gay question?
>>

 No.223276

>>223094
Oh no, not the hekin gay question, think of the gays!
>>

 No.223455

>>223094
for completeness sake, yes. Just like the collected works of marx and engels contain that one letter where he talks about lasalle
>>

 No.223464

>>223094
Fuck off
>>

 No.223483

>>217863
I like all four of those ideas. I always wished there was a political avenue for advancing direct democracy. It's a really popular idea when you explain it to someone, but there seems no to be political organizations behind it.
>>

 No.223549

>>223094
especially that one
>>

 No.225395

>>223483
There used to be some direct democracy parties, but they all failed to gain popular support… most of these were some kind of "pirate party" or internet weird thing totally disconnected from the proletariat though.
I would like to hear more about how could we advance such a party.
>>

 No.230377

>>218493
>>218968
What do you think about the recent (political) developments in the DPRK? I think that after shifting the focus from nuclearization/military build up, the WPK will now set its sights on developing the economy. What do you as cybersocs think? Is there more room for cybernetic socialism in the DPRK if they manage to build, for example a reliable powergrid? See:
>>213965
>>226853
>>226944
>>

 No.230542

>>230377
It's a possibility, but from my interpretation of the historical context of DPRK it is also similarly likely, if not moreso, that they will go the rightist route (as have been speculated before). So far it has not happened to the degree of let's say the doi-moi reforms, and they've kind of stagnated instead, as you've already pointed out.
For me, in terms of looking for communist movements and contexts where cybersoc would be more likely to be met with appeal I keep a close eye on the MLM movements, namely CPP, CPI(M) and PCP, due to the integration of the Mass Line as a concept and robust anti-revisionism, which lends itself to the contributions of Cockshott imo. But in your favor is the point that the DPRK is the most likely DotP already existing to have a chance of implementing it, I completely agree with that, so it's definitely complicated and an interesting topic. If you find more about cybernetics / IT deployed by the DPRK in contrast to other ML states then do share so we'll get a better understanding of how this may develop.
>>

 No.231247

>>230377
sounds like a promising development
the nork internet seems a bit weird what with it not using DNS from what I hear
is there any data on what resources, capital stocks etc are available in the DPRK?
>>

 No.231275

>>230377
>>230542
>>231247
the DPRK is likely too paranoid to use import computer hardware for critical nodes in a cybernetic socialist system. What are the chances that they get enough trusted IT equipment ?

They can use backdoored import hardware if they only run them with encrypted binaries and data, and direct the system from trusted hardware. So that the bulk of processing horsepower can be done with insecure commercial chips, while they can get away with relatively weak but secure control node computers, they could potentially make them self.
>>

 No.231306

>>231275
riscv and FOSSi can potentially help with the trust issue. does the DPRK have any silicon foundries?

most of the computations required for computerized planning is linear algebra. not too much to go wrong there, and you can double-check the results on trusted hardware

using data diodes can also help
>>

 No.231317

>>231306
>riscv and FOSSi can potentially help
what does the i stand for in FOSSi ?
>does the DPRK have any silicon foundries?
Yes i think so, but it's likely 5 guys in a lab tweaking a soviet era lithography machine, that can do chips with a few megahertz clockspeed and a few kilobytes of memory.
>using data diodes can also help
Yes unidirectional security gateways should be very hard to hack, but there have been hardware based hacks, they will have to do continuous improvements to stay ahead.
>>

 No.231360

>>231317
>what does the i stand for in FOSSi ?
Si, the chemical name for silicon. it's a pun, you see. https://www.fossi-foundation.org/
the gist of the project is that they provide a way to compile Verilog to silicon via a process design kit (PDK)

>Yes i think so, but it's likely 5 guys in a lab tweaking a soviet era lithography machine, that can do chips with a few megahertz clockspeed and a few kilobytes of memory.

FOSSi has the goal of being compatible with any PDK. FOSSi is currently highly involved in the Google Skywater PDK, which is a 130nm process (https://github.com/google/skywater-pdk). one way forward would be to define a PDK for the foundries in the DPRK. skywater's tapeouts are done in china
>>

 No.231369

>>231317
>Yes i think so, but it's likely 5 guys in a lab tweaking a soviet era lithography machine, that can do chips with a few megahertz clockspeed and a few kilobytes of memory.
That's enough to build a full featured microcoded RISCV bitslice machine innit?
>>

 No.231395

>>231317
>>231360 (me)
judging by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants they can make 3 µm feature sizes, meaning mid-80's consumer tech. this is perfectly fine for a lot of analog stuff, but to get computing grunt out of it you'd have to get creative

>>231369
more than enough

I went and had a bit of a look at other 3 µm chips. the 8086 is 29000 transistors in 33 mm². this means a 200 mm wafer should fit 27 million transistors. certainly enough to do something interesting. low speed tho.
>>

 No.231455

>>231395
The dprk economy is small so their io-matrixes for the economy would be too. But they also have fewer people that can work on optimization. Building a planning computer out of 80s tech is tough. China has to have some outdated fab tech from the mid nineties to the early 2000s they could give the Dprk as a hand me down. The Dprk doesn't have too many spare power-plants, you have to keep it in a reasonably small power envelope.
>>

 No.231465

>>230377
These developments in formalities you link to are completely irrelevant to the question you ask.

As for the other answers to that post: Computing power is not an issue. 80s tech is amazing from the point of view of 70s Chile. If you want a nation to have a super-computer from the point of view of 80s America, just go there as a tourist and leave your smartphone there lol. All opposition to deep cybernetic integration is political.
>>

 No.231468

>>231455
judging by the existence of red star os they do have decent-ish machines. doing I/O analysis for one million industries is perfectly reasonable even on ten year old machines. you can double-check the results on trusted machines. solving linear programs is trickier

I presume what the DPRK don't want leaked is the metadata around this. so what you do is arrange the system of equations to solve on trusted machines, then hand those equations over to untrusted machines

>>231369
I just remembered, there's an open bit-serial RISCV implementation
https://github.com/olofk/serv
>>

 No.231554

I don't really see the DPRK implementing something like this. Them and Cuba seem to be getting closer to opening up the market instead.
>>

 No.231559

>>231468
>>231554
yeah if they can buy mercades they can buy a few servers from china if they want
>>

 No.231586

Hello friends, I'm trying to into computational science. I can do some Python and C (I even know a bit of MPI and OpenMP). How can I into some practical examples without spending countless hours reading books? I really like reading, but I don't have the free time I used to, and I'd rather see some practical examples. Cheers.
>>

 No.231588

>>231559
maybe they don't trust the CCP? come to think of it, what's the deal with the CCP and the WPK not having merged? feels like they should.
>>

 No.231592

File: 1620487240635.jpg ( 84.35 KB , 960x760 , 1614059727561.jpg )

seeing that primitivism is likely the future what sort of tech will last in a civilizational collapse?
>>

 No.231602

>>231586
use codeacademy or something it has examples
>>

 No.231734

>>231592
primitivism can't address the climate situation. it is entirely reactionary
there's always going to be some tech. if the industrial base happens to be heavily damaged then I suppose repair will become much more prevalent than today
>>

 No.231739

>>231734
>primitivism can't address the climate situation
primitivism is the only thing that can address the climate situation

>it is entirely reactionary

reactionary is anything I don't like
>>

 No.231743

>>231739
>primitivism is the only thing that can address the climate situation
how?
>>

 No.231744

>>231739
>reactionary is anything I don't like
Look up the meaning of the word retard
>>

 No.231753

>>231743
because the very things that harm the planet are a result of industrialized society
>>

 No.231755

>>231744
cope /pol/
>>

 No.231759

>>231753
how do you propose we sequester the 400 Gton of surplus CO2 in the atmosphere?

industry currently serves porky's interests. to bring our planet's heat budget into balance requires ww2 amounts of labour. this can be done so long as industry serves proletarian interests
>>

 No.231760

>>231739
Dont be retarded. As Anti-Civ people we should accept that what we believe is inherently reactionary. Even if we reject those ways of viewing things.
>>

 No.231763

File: 1620492715143.png ( 697.79 KB , 1053x439 , Screen_Shot_2017-06-21_at_….png )

>>231759
>how do you propose we sequester the 400 Gton of surplus CO2 in the atmosphere?
I don't

>industry currently serves porky's interests. to bring our planet's heat budget into balance requires ww2 amounts of labour. this can be done so long as industry serves proletarian interests


even when industry is controlled by the proletariat the climate suffers pic related
>>

 No.231764

>>231760
reacting against cavillation is no more reactionary then reacting against capitalism
>>

 No.231768

>>231763
>I don't
thus proving you are reactionary. you don't care that hundreds of millions of people will die, that billions will become climate refugees.

>even when industry is controlled by the proletariat the climate suffers pic related

gee it's almost like the CPSU didn't actually care much about the environment. infantile argument.

cybernetics is all about feedback loops. thermal regulation is an entirely solveable problem.
>>

 No.231771

>>231764
Anti-civ entails being anti-industrial society. Being against industrial society and technological progress is inherently Reactionary.
You have just been conditioned like a particulary simple monkey to react negatively to the word Reactionary despite presumably being against industrial society.
>>

 No.231772

>>231768
>gee it's almost like the CPSU didn't actually care much about the environment. infantile argument.
Check the year of each picture before giving the retard even that comrade
>>

 No.231777

File: 1620493362363.png ( 881.73 KB , 1068x1029 , f645833f82ba1f9319868b40e6….png )

>>231772
good point. porky made the situation even worse.

I can respect >>231771 who at least admits being a primmie is inherently reactionary
>>

 No.231789

>>231768
>thus proving you are reactionary
sorry but the CO2 in the atmosphere has no bearing on what is or is not reactionary

>don't care that hundreds of millions of people will die, that billions will become climate refugees

funny how you only focus on the people harmed by the fallout of industrial civilization but conveniently ignore those harmed in the process of industrialized civilization

>gee it's almost like the CPSU didn't actually care much about the environment. infantile argument

it almost sounds like you're agreeing with: even when industry is controlled by the proletariat the climate suffers

>cybernetics is all about feedback loops. thermal regulation is an entirely solveable problem.

when that happens tell me but until then my point still stands
>>

 No.231794

>>231771
Supporting industrialized society is supporting the continuation of capitalism and is inherently reactionary

sounds like YOU are the reactionary here
>>

 No.231800

>>231789
>sorry but the CO2 in the atmosphere has no bearing on what is or is not reactionary
your inaction will lead to immense suffering simply because of your childish aversion to >muh industrial society

>it almost sounds like you're agreeing with: even when industry is controlled by the proletariat the climate suffers

if you want to have the semblance of a coherent argument at least bring up a modern socialist system, for example CCP's China
>>

 No.231805

>>231800
>your inaction will lead to immense suffering simply because of your childish aversion to >muh industrial society
and your inaction to stop the industrial society will lead to immense suffering simply because of your childish aversion to >muh primitivism society

>if you want to have the semblance of a coherent argument at least bring up a modern socialist system, for example CCP's China

lmao ahh anything that proves you wrong is suddenly an incoherent argument
>>

 No.231816

File: 1620494750222.pdf ( 3.48 MB , 230x300 , Stalins_Environmentalism.pdf )

>>231763
Picture shows the fastest receding of the lake after the restoration of capitalism…
PDF related, the USSR did care about the environment, arguably less so after Stalin. The environmental problems in the former USSR were greatly exacerbated after its dissolution, which your picture shows. While it wasn't perfect, capitalism completely disregards the environment and is obviously less inclined to care for it, because that cuts into its profits.
>>

 No.231822

>>231816
>Picture shows the fastest receding of the lake after the restoration of capitalism…
you understand water drainage takes time right? Just because the USSR collapsed doesn't mean that all the blame is suddenly off of them because they weren't around to administer the final results
>>

 No.231833

>>231794
>Supporting industrialized society is supporting the continuation of capitalism and is inherently reactionary
A. I do not support capitalism or indusrial society.
B. You do not know what reactionary means.
C. You are so retarded i have second half embarrassment.
>>231777
> who at least admits being a primmie is inherently reactionary
The problem is most people in this tendency come from a life-time of the left, so they find it very hard to let go of such things as being called a reactionary. Personally If someone is calling me a reactionary to signify i am against 'progress', then fine, if someone is saying it to signal i am somehow close to nazis and far-right (who are also progressives) i am not fine.
>>

 No.231842

>>231805
and yet you propose no method to sequester surplus greenhouse gases

we know that we can compute the optimal way to deal with the issue, given existing capital and possible capital investments. your solution amounts to "just die lol"

>>231833
literally feelings over facts
>>

 No.231843

>>231833
>A. I do not support capitalism or indusrial society.
that reply wasn't to you
>B. You do not know what reactionary means.
sounds like you're mad I exposed you for being a reactionary
>C. You are so retarded i have second half embarrassment.
cope retard
>>

 No.231847

>>231842
>and yet you propose no method to sequester surplus greenhouse gases
its not an issue I'm too concerned with

>we know that we can compute the optimal way to deal with the issue, given existing capital and possible capital investments. your solution amounts to "just die lol"

except we can't so try again
>>

 No.231854

File: 1620496432227.jpg ( 110.54 KB , 1182x1096 , 5f8e85c7f6e889b5faabbfdfc5….jpg )

>>231847
>its not an issue I'm too concerned with
I know you don't. this is why I say primitivism is childish reactionary nonsense

>except we can't so try again

ok von mises
>>

 No.231856

>>231854
>I know you don't. this is why I say primitivism is childish reactionary nonsense

and like I said before I don't care. The CO2 in the atmosphere has no bearing on what is or isn't reactionary
>>

 No.231934

File: 1620498349336.jpg ( 56.35 KB , 720x720 , IMG_20210416_111138_379.jpg )

>CO2 doesn't care about your feelings
>>

 No.231956

>>231854
>literally feelings over facts
What part, friend?
>>231843
>sounds like you're mad I exposed you for being a reactionary
Anon… I told you I was a reactionary and I am okay with that. Why aren't you is the question?
>cope
Why would I have to COPE that you are braindead? that's not how this works.
>>

 No.231962

>>231934
> Thinks science and religion are incompatible
That's true though
>>

 No.231968

File: 1620498948332.jpeg ( 29.74 KB , 783x391 , images - 2021-05-05T16360….jpeg )

>CO2 is a problem
uygha just plant more trees lmao

OVER MY COLD DEAD HANDS are primmies and other liberals going to take away my ICE cara
>>

 No.231984

>>231968
you have to run your cara on something other than dino squeezins. not an insurmountable problem though. chuck some bio waste into a gasifier, pass the syngas into a fischer-tropsch reactor and distill -> sweet sweet bio petrol
>>

 No.231995

>>231962
I hate that religioncucks latched onto the anti-science movement and I hate that anglos think anti- means "complete opposition to" and not just critique.
>>

 No.232017

>>231962
it 100% is true, but I think there's something people often don't quite get about religion and atheism.

I'm a hardcore atheist. Like, full stop. There is absolutely guaranteed certainly no good, no heaven, no hell, no reincarnation, no life after death, no metaphysical bullshit of any kind. I believe that society is moving away from this bullshit, and that that is unequivocally a good thing.

However, the gravest problem facing atheism as a movement, if you could even call it that, is that fact that it's mostly only ever *overtly* practiced online, in debate bro spaces, which have warped values. Atheists are very interested in seeing religious people renounce their faith and say outright "this is all bullshit". This will never happen. But god is still dying, fast. This is not because people are rejecting religion outright, but because it's meaning is fading in people's minds. Most Christians nowadays don't believe in nearly any of the actual claims of the bible. A lot of them don't even realize you're *supposed* to take it seriously. A lot of Christians don't even believe in god. Christianity is just a habit for them. It's the same for all other religions. They're slowly being secularized, very few of their followers actually believe in them. In a few centuries, it will probably only be a handful of stuffy historians and academics that even remember that ancient theists actually believed in the gods they worshipped.

Religion and science are completely incompatible. But religious people, whether they consciously know it or not, or more loyal to science than religion. Only fringe fundamentalist types still believe in the actual beliefs of religion, and as such reject science. These groups have constantly diminishing power, as a result of the fact that they've shut themselves off from one of the most powerful tools of human development. The only part of the world where they're really still powerful is the middle east, and even there they won't last forever.

Religion is incompatible with science, but religion has received such a fatal blow from secularism over the centuries that few religious people even remember. Most people say they're religious, but religion has already lost, especially in Asia and the west. Someone may claim to be a Christian, and believe the bible was written by god, but ask them if the tower of babel happened, and not only will they say no, they'll say "of course not". Most likely, they won't even know the tower of babel was something people ever believed in the first place. Meanwhile, you can bet your ass they'll accept what historical linguists tell them about the history of language. Science won, religion lost. It wasn't a final, quick, satisfactory victory, where all the cringe christcucks cried and admitted they were wrong on internet forums. They just all, slowly, over centuries, forgot that they ever believed they were right.
>>

 No.232026

>>232017
science and atheism are incompatible
>>

 No.232050

File: 1620500897050.jpg ( 124.79 KB , 1280x720 , 1619904792465.jpg )

>>231984
Yeah biopetrol is viable, so is alcohol

Ideally all normies will have electric cars so us ICE chads can keep puffing away
>>

 No.232060

>>232050
a friendorino of mine is actually fine with something like this. his hobby is his MC, and gas is such a minor cost that he doesn't mind running it on aspen, a very pure more expensive form of gasoline
>>

 No.235365

(vidrel:) It is often claimed by Marxists that workers in the ‘periphery’ countries earn such paltry wages as they do due to an alleged deficiency in ‘productivity’. Critics of the theory of unequal exchange as a mechanism of imperialist value transfer suggest that since the productivity of developing country labour is much lower than that of developed country labour, the backward industries of the global South produce goods and services that are correspondingly less valuable than those of the far more advanced industry of the global North. As such, productivity differentials either reduce or completely negate the inequality inherent in exchange based on divergent wage levels. Indeed, this point has recently been made quite forcefully in the following terms: ‘[Global labour arbitrage] is a shift of work from the hands of those who create more value to those who create less.’ Although it is obvious that it would scarcely be profitable for corporations to shift production to areas where workers are only a fraction as productive as those in their home countries, we are compelled to take such logic seriously. There are several points to make against this view commonly held by socialists in the global North at least, where it functions as tacit justification for prioritising the demands of the world’s richest (‘most exploited’) workers.

First, measuring productivity according to the market value generated by each unit of labour (whether in terms of labour time or of cost) is highly problematic. In denying the elementary truth that international wage differentials typically reflect divergent rates of exploitation Finger, for instance, declares that ‘the value-enhancing ability of an hour of social labor is intrinsically linked to the quantity of social resources sacrificed to attain and preserve those skills’. In other words, metropolitan workers are said to produce more (surplus) value because their costs of reproduction, that is, their wages, are higher. As John Smith has noted, were this true ‘capitalists could increase the quantity of surplus value extracted from a workforce simply by paying them higher wages!’ Similarly, as Jedlicki argues, ‘value-added’ data already incorporates those wage and capital differentials which Western ‘socialists’ justify in the name of superior metropolitan ‘productivity’. In doing so, ‘a demonstration is carried out by using as proof what constitutes, precisely, the object of demonstration’.

Second, one hour of average socially necessary labour time (what Marx called ‘abstract labour’) expended in a capital-intensive industry is the same as one hour expended in a labour-intensive industry. It is not the amount of capital at a worker’s disposal that renders her more or less productive of value, but the amount of abstract labour that she contributes to the capitalist production process as a whole. As Marx writes:

>Productive power has reference, of course, only to labour of some useful concrete form … Useful labour becomes, therefore, a more or less abundant source of products, in proportion to the rise or fall of its productiveness. On the other hand, no change in this productiveness affects the labour represented by value … However then productive power may vary, the same labour [of equal skill and intensity], exercised during equal amounts of time, always yields equal amounts of value. But it will yield, during equal periods of time, different quantities of value in use; more, if the productive power rise, fewer, if it fall. The same change in productive power, which increases the fruitfulness of labour, and, in consequence, the quantity of use-values produced by that labour, will diminish the total value of this increased quantity of use-values, provided such change shorten the total labour time necessary for their production; and vice versa.


Contrary to what some critics of unequal exchange imply, the higher physical productivity of labour, ceteris paribus, tends to reduce, not increase the per capita value of its output. Moreover, as Emmanuel argues, in the absence of political and/or trade union pressure being brought to bear on the labour market, technological progress tends to lower the value of labour-power (wages). As such, productivity increases are not necessarily correlated with wage increases, as can be observed by comparing the ‘relatively small differences in productivity between centre and periphery [with wage differences between the two] and the fact that sometimes Third World workers are even more productive than workers from the centre … ’. Historically, productivity increased rapidly in the earlier years of the industrial revolution in Britain, but wage levels tended not to rise in tandem. The growth of monopoly, however, has afforded increasing wages for a section of the working class having a modicum of social and/or economic capital at its disposal.

Relatedly, surplus value is not the difference between the price of labour-power and the final price of its product as is suggested by socialists who argue that metropolitan workers are the most exploited worldwide. Rather, it is the difference between the labour time required to produce the materials required for the worker’s reproduction compared with the labour time he or she actually expends as a wage-earner. A negative rate of surplus value can and does apply in some regions of the world where workers are able to purchase with their wages more abstract labour than they themselves contribute with their labour-power. We will examine the extent to which this is the case below. For now, it is necessary to understand that (1) a high proportion of the goods consumed by metropolitan workers are the product of highly exploited global South labour, and (2) a high proportion of the capital used in the production of consumer goods industries in the core countries is the accumulated or ‘dead’ labour of these same highly exploited workers. Addressing the first of these issues, Smith writes:

>The Euro-Marxist argument that higher productivity in the North means that higher wages are consistent with higher rates of exploitation has been negated by a simple fact: as we know from the labels, the consumption goods consumed by workers in the North are no longer produced solely or mainly in the North; to an ever-greater extent, they are produced by low-wage labour in the Global South. Their productivity, their wages significantly substantially determine the value of the basket of consumption goods that reproduces labour-power in imperialist countries.


In light of this, it is notable that even the small numbers of writers who are critical of value transfer view it largely or solely as enriching capitalists, but not most workers in the global North. Broadly speaking, they see superprofits but not superwages. The mobility of productive capital, however, ensures that profit rates tend to be equalised internationally, with the consequent transfer of surplus value between countries. This tendency for the rate of profit to be equalised means that workers in the advanced countries benefit from unequal exchange. As Emmanuel writes, ‘super-profits can only be temporary. Super wages, however, become automatically in the long run, the normal level of wages’.

The third point against critics of alleged lower ‘periphery’ productivity is that the export industries of the Third World are not typically based on primitive production techniques, but on technological endowments similar to those of analogous sectors of metropolitan industry. More importantly, capital is mobile internationally and is therefore capable of levelling intra-industry technological differences across countries even if it does not in fact do so. International technology transfer is principally dictated by profitability criteria under circumstances wherein the extremely low price of labour-power has been used as a substitute for capital investment internationally. Thus a massive increase in the employment of cheap labour over the past four decades has coincided with decreasing investments in fixed capital. In sum, technological wherewithal is dependent not on what is necessary for the production of a given quantity of use values, but on what is optimal for the valorisation of capital. The introduction of labour-saving technology to the production process is foremost conditional, then, upon the prospective maximisation of profits.

>It may be technically efficient to use a labour-intensive method of producing things, because although mechanisation saves on labour it involves using more of the other input, namely machines. Setting aside technically inefficient production methods, the real question is which of the possible technically efficient methods will give most profits: the more mechanised or the more labour-intensive one? A simple example shows how this question must be answered. Street cleaners can clean the streets more quickly if they are all equipped with vacuum cleaners. But this will not necessarily be profitable. If the vacuum cleaners are very expensive, it may cost less to use a more labour-intensive method. If the machines are cheap enough, then it pays to become more mechanised.


Fourth, evidence for the alleged productivity gap which opponents of the theory of unequal exchange have traditionally posited as responsible for global wage divergence is highly suspect; in value terms, transfer pricing makes it extremely difficult to measure productivity in the different operations of one enterprise.

>The enterprise’s ability to set arbitrary prices for transfers of semi-finished goods within the same firm means that relative productivity between different branches of the firm will take on an arbitrary value. As in a single plant where, say, production line workers are paid different wages from cleaning workers, productivity (and hence the notion of exploitation) is indivisible.


In Amin’s understanding of the concept, unequal exchange is ‘the exchange of products whose production involves wage differentials greater than those of productivity’. However, where productivity differentials may realistically be said to apply, and bracketing the first two points raised above, these are not necessarily greater than wage differentials and, therefore, trade between low-wage and high-wage countries involves a transfer of additional surplus value from the former to the latter.

Fifth, the less developed countries have neither the government budgets, nor the industrial infrastructure in place to produce technological innovations which might compete with those of the developed countries. Multinational corporations based in the developed countries have a monopoly of advanced technology for which the firms and countries of the less developed world must pay to use, and they thereby obtain a corresponding productivity gain.

Sixth, the final prices of goods produced in the ‘periphery’ using cheap labour and sold in the imperialist countries are inflated by the costs of advertising, marketing, retail, insurance and security. When added to the cost price, these enormous capital outlays make it appear that metropolitan workers employed in these sectors are producing huge quantities of additional value per unit of labour time, that is, that they are exceptionally productive compared to the ‘peripheral’ workers who actually manufacture a product or its vital inputs. In fact, no additional value is added to many products during these later phases of its circulation, but geographical and inter-sectoral price structures allow the redistribution of value created at the point of production. In sum, countries are exploited within the capitalist world economy by means of unequal exchange in the sphere of circulation, that is, in the difference between the selling prices of national producers and those of multinational corporations (monopolies).

Seventh, some critics assume that labour cannot exploit labour. As Finger writes: ‘Although from a formal standpoint, an unequal exchange of hours takes place in the exchange of commodities of equal physiological labour through unequal prices, skilled labour does not exploit unskilled labour.’16 Superficially, this statement is correct; to exploit labour, one would first have to hire labour. Nonetheless, some strata of the working class clearly do benefit from the exploitation of other strata. Leaving aside the extent and spread of shareholding, home ownership, and savings in the form of deposit accounts and pension funds amongst the ‘working class’ – all of which constitute capital from which profits may be drawn – some sections of the same actively pursue political agendas that maintain and extend a parasitic relationship between themselves and oppressed workers. This agency may itself be described as exploitative. That is to say, where some workers seek to retain whatever bourgeois status their occupation, income and conditions of work afford them through alliance with imperialist, racist and/or patriarchal political forces responsible for the low-wage position of oppressed workers, they may justly be said to actively exploit said workers.
>>

 No.235366

>>235365
via (pdf.rel.)
(for sources n' shiet)
>>

 No.235453

>>235365
Do you have some good books by Amin?
>>

 No.235460

>>235453
No. I only have some bad books by him.

Sorry.

DURR
>>

 No.235482

>>235460
Then give those supposed bad books
>>

 No.237315

>>235365 >>235366 >>235453 >>235460 >>235482
This has nothing to do with cybernetics. We have a thread about the labor-aristocracy claim here: >>203975
>>

 No.244754

>>

 No.244926

>>244754
It really looks like Cockshott is an Althusserian
>>

 No.244940

>>244926
But cockshott engages in empirical evidence
>>

 No.244949

>>244940
Well, he is atleast influenced by him
>>

 No.246504

>>244926
He's been critical of him in other videos he seems to have a mixed view on the guy.
>>

 No.246538

>>

 No.247423

>>217778
Are these accessible for non-specialists?
>>

 No.247963

File: 1620935537309.jpg ( 63.67 KB , 828x802 , fl5vntk7max61.jpg )

>>247423
this is a difficult question to answer. you just have to try and read them and judge for yourself. knowing linear algebra should help.
I've read some of kantorovich' stuff, and I've read a bunch of leontief's papers, and they're both quite straightforward to me. but I'm a maths guy.
>>

 No.267004

>>247423
You must be a STEMLORD to enter.
>>

 No.267453

File: 1621504528277.png ( 116.31 KB , 1190x776 , MACHINE LEARNING LENINISM.PNG )

You have probably heard of cybersocialism, now get ready for MACHINE LEARNING LENINISM, or
ML squared if you like it.
>>

 No.267457

>>

 No.268649

>>267453
here I was thinking the same thing the other day, but disregarding the idea because I didn't realize there more examples than the USSR and China to go on. with enough examples you can start doing proper statistics, not dumb shit like "machine learning". dickblast unfortunately has fallen victim to the AI meme.
>>

 No.269353

>>268649
machine learning is just statistics with computers anyway, the only problem with ML is falsely conflating it with AI when in reality its just computer programs doing math
>>

 No.270108

>>269353
we shouldn't be using the term ML at all I think, precisely because it brings out the AI woo. except when applying for funding I suppose, because AI is still in vogue
>>

 No.270176

>>270108
The whole reason ML got brought in as a term was for marketability after the AI hype/ AI winter of the 1980s/early 90s winding down with the cold war. They needed a new hype term so they rebranded
>>

 No.270223

File: 1621595674525.jpg ( 77.99 KB , 1124x628 , Djn4Ri6XoAEeZlF.jpg large.jpg )

seeing that primitivism is likely the future what sort of tech will last in a civilizational collapse?
>>

 No.270227

>>270223
>seeing that primitivism is likely the future what sort of tech will last in a civilizational collapse?
It is a meaingless question because you missunderstand collapse. We are currently living through collapse and yet we have all the technologies we have.
>>

 No.270228

>>270227
>It is a meaingless question because you missunderstand collapse. We are currently living through collapse and yet we have all the technologies we have.
then it hasn't collapsed yet
>>

 No.270251

>>270228
>then it hasn't collapsed yet
Lmao. And so i guess you are the arbiter of collapse? What makes a collapse then, anon?
>>

 No.270304

Was the cybernetic option truly undoable in the USSR?
http://eregime.org/index.php?s=57dd478d5983c1e2adeabdd0f2f3ba7e&showtopic=17380
>>

 No.270305

>>270223
civilizational collapse doesn't equal technological collapse.
>>

 No.270360

>>270223
>seeing that primitivism is likely the future
it's not. technology doesn't move backward. also BÖG means faggot in Swedish

>>270304
they had started building OGAS and ASPR by the time the union was dissolved, so I wouldn't say it was undoable. read up on glushkov
>>

 No.270365

>>270223
<BOG
What did they mean by that?
>>

 No.270368

>>270304
Not undoable. But while the USSR put all cards on electrification and led the West in this metric, the USA focused on telecommunications. In the end the US made the right gamble. I don't doubt that the USSR could also have made an ARPANET if they tried it. Strategic blunder and also political reasons for this
>>

 No.272097

File: 1621689675030.png ( 362.62 KB , 984x523 , Socialist Terry Davis conf….PNG )

Is Cockshott communist Terry Davis? You decide…
>>

 No.273988

Cockbros, it ssems this thread isn't so active. Are you guys happy with the thread speed or should we perhaps discuss topics adjacent to cybersocialism?
>>

 No.274563

>>272097
not schizo enough to attain the heights of saint Terry I'm afraid

>>273988
what do you want to talk about?
>>

 No.274572

>>273988
could do a math study thread or something. maybe better for /edu/
>>

 No.274607

File: 1621767916824.png ( 88.77 KB , 408x338 , key.png )

>>273988
>should we perhaps discuss topics adjacent to cybersocialism?
We could discuss the idealism around identification systems.

Even in materialist circles the idealist premise of id-cards like drivers licenses or passports is rarely questioned. There actually isn't anything like that. Material reality is that ID is just a key that uses biological measurements instead of a cypher to actuate a lock. Yes the police officer that checks your driving license is a lock that compares a biological scan with the photo in your license paper. So called "Bio-metric" locks are a lot worse and a lot more expensive than regular locks that use a cypher. What counts is the ratio of what it takes to build a lock and what it takes to crack a lock, even mechanical pin-tumbler locks which are notoriously easy to pick come out ahead. You can read the security research and they usually can defeat bio-metric systems that took months or years of development in a few hours or days. Cypher locks that are very well implemented can't be quickly by-passed without destroying them, which makes them undefeated.

Surveillance capitalism has invented something similar, instead of a biometric key, they use a tracking-data key. Tracking-data locks have the same vulnerabilities as biometric locks, but in addition they also have their data bases hacked and leaked like twice a year and they have a higher error-rate with false positives. Imagine locks that are like your senile grandparent that thinks you are somebody else, and tells everybody your secrets. The track-metric and bio-metric lock makers are promising that their systems will become better when they add more facets to it. They have the same strategy as the movie drug dealer that has 5 insecure door-locks.

So the materialist way to look at this is to treat the entire state bureaucracy that works with Id cards like a mechanism that has a serious of lock-switches that can only be activated if you have a key to release them. The squishy organic stuff that grows and changes a lot over time doesn't allow for the necessary precision to be a key. Medical treatments that make alterations to genetics are already being tested, so even the ultimate "identity-essence" isn't suitable for an immutable biological key.

With cybernetic socialism in mind where we overhaul the entire system, i want to propose that we ditch id-keys for cypher-keys. The government doesn't give you a id-key it just gives you a cypher-key to access government services. You get a primary key that you store for safe keeping and in daily life you use the secondary key. The primary key can restore a secondary key if you loose it. If you loose your primary key, you become a new citizen. I know this is lacking, there should be more recovery stages before your become a new citizen. Please propose a better recovery scheme.

This lengthy post, isn't just about materialist philosophy. There is the advantage, that the security of the system is entirely contained in the access points. If the security of one key-lock-combination is broken there is no way to escalate and gain access to other things as well. That means less security paranoia of the government directed at people and we can have a politically more palatable inwards looking state security focus. We need only to keep close tabs on people that implement the key system, but not on the people that use it.

I haven't figured out how to make it work with labor vouchers and sortician democracy. If the government doesn't store personal identification about people to make government services work, how do we collect data to find a statistically representative sample of the population ? How do we make sure labor vouchers aren't transferable ? Before you say this can't work, your identity functions like a password-key stamped on your forehead, it's not better, you are just more used to it.
>>

 No.274699

>>274607
So you want to give everyone a social security number?
>>

 No.274745

>>274607
what is the point of this rambling post? yeah people can make fake IDs, and if we use a PKI scheme then they can just borrow eachother's private keys. big whoop. just make it illegal to do so. no ID system will be perfect.

>I haven't figured out how to make it work with labor vouchers and sortician democracy. If the government doesn't store personal identification about people to make government services work, how do we collect data to find a statistically representative sample of the population ?

are you proposing we have anonymous cybersocialism? how would that even work? we can do pseudonymity at most I think, but that falls apart if you can't have more than one pseudonym. it's just a security blanket for schizos. for sortition to work we must ensure that everyone is represented exactly once in a public database. this is the case in Sweden.
>>

 No.274759

>>274699
>So you want to give everyone a social security number?
No, Social Security numbers are based on identity-keys too. I see i have to make this way simpler:

When you interact with a person, they recognize who you are.
When you interact with a locker, it doesn't recognize you.
The person might decide to let you in or keep you out based on who your are.
The locker will let you in or keep you out based on if you have the right key, it doesn't know who you are.

I want to make the state more like a locker. because bureaucracies behave more like machines than real people. It will be cheaper and more reliable (technical details see>>274607) if you interact with the state apparatus like if you were interacting with a machine. It might also be psychologically better because there isn't a cognitive disconnect: The state mimics being a person because it can recognize who you are a little (at least to the extend id systems work as intended), but at the same time states mostly work like indifferent machines that don't recognize you as a person. And i hope, (and the next part might be a bit naive) that political debates would be focused on policy like the features of a machine rather than the anthropomorphized political battles we have now.

>>274745
>what is the point of this
i thought I spelled that out, ID is idealism, that prevents us from using the better and more cost effective system.
>are you proposing we have anonymous cybersocialism?
No not anonymous, more like identity-less, anonymous is hiding like wearing a mask, identity-less is not looking.
>>

 No.274777

>>274607
>>274759
ID implants.
>>

 No.274788

>>270305
this doesn't mean all the technology we have today will remain

>it's not.

sorry but thinking we are going to progress forever is lunacy

>technology doesn't move backward. also BÖG means faggot in Swedish

wrong. it has before look at Roman aqueducts post collapse
>>

 No.274808

>>274759
>ID is idealism
ID is a tool, and yes, it does have problems. you can't just wave the word "idealism" around and think that helps your point
>No not anonymous, more like identity-less, anonymous is hiding like wearing a mask, identity-less is not looking.
so how do you do sortition or non-fungible renumeration in an identity-less system?

>>274788
>wrong. it has before look at Roman aqueducts post collapse
and yet we can build aqueducts now if we want to.
what's likely to happen is that some more advanced technology becomes too expensive to maintain. like modern semiconductor foundries.
we have too much tech and knowledge laying around that what's more likely to happen is some kind of "schizo tech" mashup of low-tech low-carbon stuff with say electronics sprinkled on top. math, chemistry, physics etc has advanced immensely the last 200 years. that shit doesn't run in reverse.
>>

 No.274821

>>274808
>and yet we can build aqueducts now if we want to.
doesn't change the fact that technology moved backward after the collapse of the Roman Empire
thus you're statement
<technology doesn't move backward
is incorrect
>what's likely to happen is that some more advanced technology becomes too expensive to maintain. like modern semiconductor foundries.
whats likely to happen is the finite resources that are required for modern life become scarce and we find it increasingly harder to live in industrial society


>we have too much tech and knowledge laying around that what's more likely to happen is some kind of "schizo tech" mashup of low-tech low-carbon stuff with say electronics sprinkled on top. math, chemistry, physics etc has advanced immensely the last 200 years. that shit doesn't run in reverse.

200 years is profoundly insignificant to the 200,000 years humans lived with virtually no tech
>>

 No.274830

>>274821
I guess we'll just see how things shake out. in the context of cybersoc this is all just a matter of what resources have at our disposal. plug that shit into the equations and the optimal way forward plops out. claiming that "industrial society" will end is nonsense. industry merely changes.
>>

 No.274842

File: 1621784592783.png ( 205.15 KB , 2752x1714 , Annual-World-Population-si….png )

>>274830
>THIS bubble won't pop trust me!
yeah ok bud

>claiming that "industrial society" will end is nonsense

industrial society is dependent on finite resources. we might have alternatives to fuel but we don't have alternatives to oil, rare earth metals etc.
its not about if its about when
>>

 No.274854

>>274842
Industrial society as we know it today will surely come to an end and even today is steadily eating itself as it tries to come up with ever more absurd bullshit to justify its own existence, and simultaneously now requires a pretty huge war to cause enough damage to make itself relevant again while also making war on too destructive to seriously wage.

We already have as a global accumulation far more than the productive capacity than we need for everyone to live well, but it's not being distributed in a format that will ever allow that to happen. The format of distribution must change drastically no matter what.
>>

 No.274863

>>274854
>Industrial society as we know it today will surely come to an end and even today is steadily eating itself as it tries to come up with ever more absurd bullshit to justify its own existence, and simultaneously now requires a pretty huge war to cause enough damage to make itself relevant again while also making war on too destructive to seriously wage
there is nothing to suggest the continuation of industrial society is some how inherent to human existence

>We already have as a global accumulation far more than the productive capacity than we need for everyone to live well

this isn't relevant to the fact that industrial society is built upon finite resources that on a long enough timeline will be reduced to zero
>>

 No.274891

>>274842
>industrial society is dependent on finite resources
no shit. this has been true for all of human history, and will continue to be true due to the shrinking size of the universe. paleolithic industry could only progress to a certain point due to availability of tools, raw materials, knowledge, population size etc.

>we might have alternatives to fuel but we don't have alternatives to oil

yes we do

>rare earth metals etc.

not for rare earth metals themselves, no. but for what they're used for? things like batteries? we have plenty of alternatives to NMC cells for example

>>274854
>Industrial society as we know it today will surely come to an end
this. and this is true at every point in time as well.

>>274863
>there is nothing to suggest the continuation of industrial society is some how inherent to human existence
this is ahistorical nonsense. for hundreds of thousands of years, industry and human existence have been inseparable
>>

 No.274905

>>274891
>no shit. this has been true for all of human history, and will continue to be true due to the shrinking size of the universe. paleolithic industry could only progress to a certain point due to availability of tools, raw materials, knowledge, population size etc.
and the faster we expend finite resources we pushed the end to our modern lifestyle faster then that of paleolithic society

>yes we do

proofs?
again having alternative fuel is not the same as being able to replace everything oil is used for

>not for rare earth metals themselves, no. but for what they're used for? things like batteries? we have plenty of alternatives to NMC cells for example

like I said above, Modern society is dependent on finite resource to which we do not have alternatives that can completely replace everything they are used for NMC cells still require finite resources to produce

>this is ahistorical nonsense this is ahistorical nonsense. for hundreds of thousands of years, industry and human existence have been inseparable

nope, sedentary life has only been around for few thousand years a drop in the bucket to human existence
>>

 No.274928

>>274905
>and the faster we expend finite resources we pushed the end to our modern lifestyle faster then that of paleolithic society
finite resources are nothing but a constraint in the planning equations. and yeah, of course our current way of life will come to an end. that's the fucking point of the socialist project.

>proofs?

>again having alternative fuel is not the same as being able to replace everything oil is used for
we can synthesize oil. if we start from hydrocarbon waste then this process is exothermic. we can also use air and water as feedstocks, if we have enough electricity. such a process powered by PV would use less land than growing plants for biomass. fission is also an option.
of course the way we use petroleum currently will come to an end. obviously. partly because we're running out of the petroleum that is easy to get to.

>like I said above, Modern society is dependent on finite resource to which we do not have alternatives that can completely replace everything they are used for NMC cells still require finite resources to produce

we will *always* be dependent on finite resources. only bourgeois economists believe otherwise.

>nope, sedentary life has only been around for few thousand years a drop in the bucket to human existence

you mean that, heavens above, human industry has changed over the last 200,000 years?
>>

 No.274937

>>274777
>ID implants.
still just a key inserted into a body, it's creepy enough that people will just dig it out again, which will make it more trouble than it's worth.
>ID is a tool, and yes, it does have problems. you can't just wave the word "idealism" around and think that helps your point
It's idealist, a state is not a person it can't recognize you like a person. Identity is an organic system. When a organization does recognition it will work like a biometric lock, which has problems that cypher locks have solved. I'm looking at all those identity leaks on social media and other online stuff, which has to be just the tip of the ice-berg.
The identity locks had the advantage when logistics where done with people looking at paper documents. Mechanical Cipher locks would have been cumbersome in the analog age, but in the digital age, i think this has shifted. ID systems are not reliable enough and now have more overhead, then what we used to have. Computers are more advanced technology, it should make stuff cheaper and more dependable. But it's not, so it means the system is miss-configured and it ignores the strengths and weaknesses of the technology it's based on.
>so how do you do sortition or non-fungible renumeration in an identity-less system?
Well i haven't figured that part out, i was hoping other people would help. Like for example how do scientists do accurate random sampling when they can't order their research to show up for a mandatory census ?
Labor vouchers don't have person to person transactions because it's not a circulating currency and people generally don't give you their banking information or credit card pin codes, this should be easier. We need single use tokens that work in emergencies without functioning networks, that could be achieved by dividing the token between the regular voucher card and a single use token. The voucher card could authenticate the single use token, while also enabling the ability to invalidate the token by physically destroying it when a store can't access the network, so it can't be spend more than once.
>>

 No.274946

>>274928
>finite resources are nothing but a constraint in the planning equations. and yeah, of course our current way of life will come to an end. that's the fucking point of the socialist project.
agreed and will likely result in a collapse of technological society

>we can synthesize oil

can we synthesize oil without the use of oil? no

>we can also use air and water as feedstocks

can we do so without the use of finite resources?

>if we have enough electricity. such a process powered by PV would use less land than growing plants for biomass. fission is also an option.

and how much metals and oil is used in that process?

Like I said we might have alternatives for different needs but we do not have alternatives for finite resources

>of course the way we use petroleum currently will come to an end. obviously. partly because we're running out of the petroleum that is easy to get to.


petroleum for fuel will come to an end but it being used for most other things will not

>we will *always* be dependent on finite resources.

this is what I'm saying
that is until they run out

.
>>

 No.275013

>>274937
>Well i haven't figured that part out, i was hoping other people would help. Like for example how do scientists do accurate random sampling when they can't order their research to show up for a mandatory census ?
perhaps one way is to defer sortition to local bodies. every area picks say a dozen candidates, either by vote or sortition. then sortition is performed on all such candidates. that way you don't have to put in everyone's identity into the system - only those that pass the first "layer" of selection.

as for how to do labour vouchers, perhaps it might be worthwhile to take inspiration from GNU Taler? https://taler.net/
perhaps it is enough to tie vouchers to keys. taler allows purchases to be anonymous. if you were to give someone else your private key then they could take *all* your vouchers. this might be enough of a discouragement.

>>274946
>can we synthesize oil without the use of oil? no
yes we can. we've had the technology to do so since the 1920's, the fischer-tropsch process. you can use sawdust as a feedstock for example. or sewage.

>can we do so without the use of finite resources?

I don't get this obsession with things being finite. everything is finite. the entire cybersocialist notion revolves around things being finite. it's how linear programs work.

>and how much metals and oil is used in that process?

good question. I know that PVs pay themselves back in terms of embodied energy in four years or so. this can all be worked out, since we will collect technical coefficients

>but it being used for most other things will not

yeah and we can synthesize for these things. or use other materials. this can all be worked out.
>>

 No.275023

>>275013
>yes we can. we've had the technology to do so since the 1920's, the fischer-tropsch process. you can use sawdust as a feedstock for example. or sewage.
proofs?

>I don't get this obsession with things being finite

other then by definition there is a limited amount and their continued consumption is required for modern life?

>good question. I know that PVs pay themselves back in terms of embodied energy in four years or so. this can all be worked out, since we will collect technical coefficients

so its not an alternative to finite resources just pushing the can down the road

>yeah and we can synthesize for these things. or use other materials. this can all be worked out.

proof for this then?
>>

 No.275030

>>274863
Complete bullshit, things do not go into a void of nothingness and vanish from existence once they've been used by society
>>

 No.275053

>>275023
>proofs?
dude, you can just read up on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E2%80%93Tropsch_process
there's a bajillion ways of producing ersatz materials for what we currently use petroleum for

>other then by definition there is a limited amount and their continued consumption is required for modern life?

yes what we have right now is not going to last. in this thread we are in the business of working out *what should be done*. as in, in the next decade if we're so lucky that we get our hands on the levers.

>so its not an alternative to finite resources just pushing the can down the road

yeah things take time. when you run the numbers on this stuff it turns out that you first must invest labour and resources into building the necessary capital. this can take 10-20 years. you can look up cockshott's ukgreen project for an example of how climate planning might work.

>proof for this then?

you mean that planning is possible? go read kantorovich, leontief, glushkov and cockshott.
>>

 No.275083

>>275053
so using sawdust as food and fischer-tropsch process doesn't show that we can synthesize oil without the use of oil

>yes what we have right now is not going to last. in this thread we are in the business of working out *what should be done*. as in, in the next decade if we're so lucky that we get our hands on the levers.


doesn't say any about the fact that industrial civilization is dependent of finite resources

.>yeah things take time
deflection

>when you run the numbers on this stuff it turns out that you first must invest labour and resources into building the necessary capital. this can take 10-20 years. you can look up cockshott's ukgreen project for an example of how climate planning might work.

this says nothing about what we were talking about

>you mean that planning is possible? go read kantorovich, leontief, glushkov and cockshott.

no i mean proof for what you said was possible
<we can synthesize for these things. or use other materials. this can all be worked out
>>

 No.275086

>>274937
>people will just dig it out again
Depends on how and where it's implanted.
>>

 No.275116

File: 1621794630261.png ( 5.24 KB , 502x113 , ClipboardImage.png )

>>

 No.275119

>>275086
>Depends on how and where it's implanted.
This is not going to work, people aren't pets you can't chip them.
>>

 No.275120

>>275083
define "finite" you absolute pseud
Because things don't vanish into the aether once they've been used
>>

 No.275123

File: 1621794720352.jpg ( 15.7 KB , 202x204 , helvete.jpg )

>>275083
>so using sawdust as food and fischer-tropsch process doesn't show that we can synthesize oil without the use of oil
are you being deliberately obtuse? the end result of F-T is hydrocarbons. just distill it. the necessary syngas can be had from any number of sources, for example dry distilling sawdust or synthesized out of air and captured CO2. go ask a fucking chemist if you don't believe me

>deflection

do you think reorganizing the entire world's production is done in a day? what brilliant plan do you have? just let 100,000,000+ people die in the coming climate refugee crisis? we have 400 Gton of CO2 to sequester.

>no i mean proof for what you said was possible

are you so dense that you can't imagine that we might replace certain materials with other materials? that there are multiple ways to produce any given use-value?
>>

 No.275151

>>275116
doesn't show that we can synthesize oil without the use of oil


>>275123
>are you being deliberately obtuse? the end result of F-T is hydrocarbons. just distill it. the necessary syngas can be had from any number of sources, for example dry distilling sawdust or synthesized out of air and captured CO2. go ask a fucking chemist if you don't believe me
and the materials used to do so still require oil to produce

>do you think reorganizing the entire world's production is done in a day?

dismissing things as "it takes time" is a deflection

>are you so dense that you can't imagine that we might replace certain materials with other materials?

you have yet to show proof of this
>>

 No.275162

>>275151
do you realize that you can just straight up use algae in large amounts to create the carbon monoxide for this
>>

 No.275166

File: 1621795550386.png ( 69.9 KB , 243x200 , dense.png )

>>275151
>doesn't show that we can synthesize oil without the use of oil
if you bothered to actually fucking read you'd know H2 and CO can both be made in literally an endless number of ways. water electrolysis and reduction of CO2 via a coal bed for example, respectively.

>dismissing things as "it takes time" is a deflection

no, it is literally how reality works you absolute idealist

>you have yet to show proof of this

FFFFFFFFF
>>

 No.275170

At this point this is turning into pretty solid proof that primitivists are flat out anticommunists who do nothing but regurgitate the claim that capitalism is the only way to do things and the "there is no alternative" line of dogma
>>

 No.275171

File: 1621795671168.png ( 22.61 KB , 811x358 , Capture.PNG )


>>275166
>if you bothered to actually fucking read you'd know H2 and CO can both be made in literally an endless number of ways. water electrolysis and reduction of CO2 via a coal bed for example, respectively.
can you show an example of this actually happening?

>no, it is literally how reality works you absolute idealist

deflection'
>>

 No.275178

>>275166
H2 via electrolysis uses up more energy than you could get from it
>>

 No.275181

>>275178
That's not what we'd be using synthetic oil for though
>>

 No.275206

>>275170
yes this fucking cretin I'm trying to get through to provides ample evidence that primitivism is nothing but reactionary garbage, and the people who peddle it will be the first sent to empty the septic tanks, dig out scrap out of the garbage dumps and be made to walk in human hamster wheels for power if it comes to that

>>275178
of course, it's a way to concentrate energy and to make plastics and other useful things
>>

 No.275425

>>275119
Lol you can literally cut off parts of their peepees and they are OK with that because "everybody" is doing it.
>>

 No.279795

PAUL COCKSHOTT CREATED BITCOIN TO CREATE DEMAND FOR AND THUS STIMULATE THE SUPPLY OF HIGH PERFORMANCE COMPUTING
PAUL COCKSHOTT IS SATOSHI NAKAMOTO
BITCOIN IS CYBERCOMMUNIST PRAXIS
>>

 No.280241

>>279795
cockshott would find a better use for blockchain than meme monopoly money
>>

 No.286648

File: 1622301339116.png ( 870.57 KB , 1200x662 , Cockshott Trump.png )

Here to announce that /ourguy/ finally reached 10000 subs.

Here is to him getting more and more mainstream.
>>

 No.286652

File: 1622301609720.jpg ( 15.33 KB , 180x255 , Cockshott strikes Again.jpg )

>>286648
He is inevitable
>>

 No.286828

File: 1622308750861.mp4 ( 716.46 KB , 256x256 , Cockshott_sings.mp4 )

>>

 No.287552

>>286828
basado
>>

 No.288396

>>216217
The same thing that happened to them will happen every single time
>>

 No.290350

I feel like this is the only "ideology" that makes sense to me. It feels so far away though… like a dream that won't ever become reality.
>>

 No.290358

File: 1622509311721.jpg ( 17.82 KB , 300x300 , 36adb8c48d309a2f4cef4a9833….jpg )

>>286648
Cheers
>>

 No.294594

>>

 No.295513

File: 1622806960918.gif ( 2.94 MB , 540x426 , potemkin.gif )

>>290350
>>294594
The struggle!
I'm gonna advice you comrades to rewatch the "Paul Cockshott Lecture 'Limits of market socialism' + Q&A" video on TheFinnishBolshevik's channel to refresh some ideas of where we practically should proceed:
https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=urDzRJ91_jY

In summation of the advice given in that clip an at other points in Cockshott's videos and writings I'd remind you of
1. organizing as a cybernetic fraction within your national communist party (one that historically didn't take a right-wing revisionist line would probably be the best)
2. Agitate within (the) labor union(s) (keep in mind that Cockshottism is partially influenced by De Leonism whose goal was to make the big unions organize on a industrial basis back in the 1890s/early 1900s – a century later many of those unions across the western world already adopted industrial rather than craft unionist organizational models through social democratic movements also agitating for it some years after the time of De Leon, so the only thing left for us would be communist agitation and organizing the most conscious members in the union into the Party)
3. Do mass work like feed the people drives, tenants unions, look at CPP for inspiration on what we could do on the community/cultural aspects with what they've built in terms of United Front groups (everything from general leftist anti-fascist coalitions to proletkult agitprop divisions of artists), including in addition agitation for direct-democratic referendums on current issues (keep in mind that Cockshottism is partially influenced by ML-MZT)

He thinks a DotP is a necessary prerequisite for the implementation of his model of cybernetic restructuring, so before then you should work within the labor movement and in close contact with other communists that keeping a hard line against capitalist roader snakes. Step one: Get a communist party with a real programme into power. For me this opened up an awareness on what we're to do outside of just refining cybernetic communism theoretically within the writing.
>>

 No.295530

>>295513
so what, like make a cybernetics caucus in the DSA?
>>

 No.295617

>>295513
this sounds similar to what I'm already doing. I've been talking to the local section of our communist party, and I have in mind to talk with the syndicalists once the pandemic is over. even my socdem friend is intrigued
>>

 No.295879

File: 1622824636683.png ( 408.58 KB , 894x894 , cybernetic-communism.png )

>>295530
No, silly. Read again.
>>295617
I'm in a very similar boat comrade. Have been thinking a lot on the question of regular vs syndicalist unions; I recently came to the conclusion that it's better to focus on the large union (if it has been established and is not a crafts-union) but that if dual-union membership is allowed it's a good idea to be part of both the mainstream and syndicalist unions. Why I'm saying this is that Lenin's Left-Wing Communism, An Infantile Disorder still holds true in that the most important part here as communists with a political party is to agitate your message to the broadest mass of organized workers, having gained union-consciousness. A big disadvantage with the average syndicalist union is the small, often cliquish size and membership. But considering they're the most based libertarian socialists and already have some points of agreement with De Leonist and Cockshottist positions, it's still worth it to build some bridges for potential collaboration with them in my analysis. By contrast, contact with platformists or especially insurrectionary anarchists would probably be mostly adverse (they have a political elaboration on intention to either outcompete your influence in the labor movement or outright wrecking your org, simply for being Marxist / party-oriented).
>>

 No.295917

>>295879
>A big disadvantage with the average syndicalist union is the small, often cliquish size and membership.
this I've noticed. the syndies in town aren't too cliquish luckily, but they are small
>By contrast, contact with platformists or especially insurrectionary anarchists would probably be mostly adverse (they have a political elaboration on intention to either outcompete your influence in the labor movement or outright wrecking your org, simply for being Marxist / party-oriented).
this I haven't noticed, but I'll try to keep it in mind

what do you think of reaching out to trots? there's a few in town that I tend to have beer with from time to time
>>

 No.295984

>>295879
I want a neat symbol for cybercommunism
It needs the gear, the wheat, the red star, the hammer and sickle, and maybe a glider for representing the cyber part. Or maybe a microchip/circuit board, although theres isnt a standard symbol for those. Or maybe both. Or maybe use the circuit imagery to draw some of the other symbols.

Making a flag is hard man
>>

 No.296012

File: 1622830771817.gif ( 1.05 MB , 500x500 , cyber lenin.gif )

>>295984
I propose this
>>

 No.296016

File: 1622831165002.jpg ( 203.65 KB , 1920x1920 , Cybernetic Communism.jpg )

>>295984
I got you bruh.
>>

 No.296108

>>296016
That omega sign makes me think it's something christian nazbol.
>>

 No.296234

>>296108
>That omega sign makes me think it's something christian nazbol.
;-)
>>

 No.296277

File: 1622836655199.jpg ( 56.7 KB , 1614x1551 , cybernetic communism.jpg )

>>295879
Platformists are about as close to MLs as anarchists can get.
>>295984
>I want a neat symbol for cybercommunism
Here you go.
>>

 No.296297

>>

 No.296305

>>296234
>>296108
I was thinking more of ohms but whatever floats your boat.
>>

 No.296380

>>295984
>maybe a glider for representing the cyber part
I think lambda (λ) is the agreed-upon symbol for cybersoc
>>

 No.296402

>>296277
Jack Jack Rabbit was good game.
>>

 No.296440

>>295513
Link just takes me to a blank page. Does anyone have another link?
>>

 No.296482

>>
Really? Something may be wrong with your browser, because I could access it with my Firefox that has a lot of restrictive addon activated (like NoScript for example)
But here it is in YouTube form:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urDzRJ91_jY
Compare the similarities in the ending of the URL to the previous Invidious proxy link:
https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=urDzRJ91_jY
>>

 No.296484

>>

 No.296488

>>295617
based anon doing the cybergods work
>>

 No.296491

>>296380
its too memed from half life and other sci fi
>>

 No.296694

File: 1622850093683.jpg ( 243.31 KB , 569x540 , 42485d40ad52cde855ab078020….jpg )

>>296491
>implying this is a bad thing
>>

 No.296697

Scifi communism by 2500 bros !
>>

 No.296723

>>296697
put me in a cyrogenic freeze then homie cuz i cant stand capitalism
>>

 No.297393

File: 1622898106586.jpg ( 468.04 KB , 2357x1617 , m1.jpg )


Trots are relative to ansynds a step more approachable I'd say. Don't know too much about their different strains, more familiar with Trotsky himself and his positions. At least they are Marxist with an appreciation of Lenin and his contribution on the theory of imperialism. Cockshott is part of a Scottish republican socialist front group that was the result of a merger of Maoists and Trotskyists so there surely must be some strains of Trotskyism that is more approachable than some of the more sectarian / quasi-reactionary ones. Maybe you could enlighten me on this? Are familiar with how to distinguish Trots between one another?
But the most trustworthy socialists however I do think are anti-revisionist MLs, for example Hoxhaists and especially Maoists (maybe with the exception of the "Gonzalo Thought" / "MLM-principally Maoist" / "MLM-pM" dogmatists and even more so the deviationist cults of Avakian and Unruhe). The MLMs of this international https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Conference_of_Marxist%E2%80%93Leninist_Parties_and_Organizations_(International_Newsletter)
rather than the RIM one are great and would probably be the most accessible parties on the planet for a cybernetic communist fraction to be unified with.
>>

 No.297395

>>

 No.297423

File: 1622900836987.pdf ( 264.6 KB , 212x300 , 21st-century-programme-201….pdf )

>>297393
Speaking of Trots, what does /cybersoc/ think about Brian Green?
https://theplanningmotive.com/
>>

 No.304328

Some people say, that Cockshott has a maoist epistemology. How?
>>

 No.304337

>>304328
have you read on practice or on contradiction by mao?
>>

 No.304374

>>304337
No, I heard that "On Practice" isn't good
>>

 No.304433

File: 1623138966614.jpeg ( 18.42 KB , 400x400 , aSxqXJ7f_400x400.jpeg )

This guy is unbelievably based
>>

 No.304452

>>304433
The Virgin sissy SocDemDoneLeft vs the Chad /hm/ Magariño
>>

 No.304458

>>304433
*Blocks your path*
>>

 No.304466

>>304458
He has that glare certainly. Like his face just says "where do you think you're going bro?"
>>

 No.304473

>>304433
He destroyed this guy called ubersoy in a debate yesterday https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWj-S1-xosE
>>

 No.304485

>>304473
>That fag Bernard Mandaville in the comment section is still trying to claim Victor is wrong, despite him also obsessively posting in the comment section of every single one of Victors videos and him getting summarily btfo by Victor himself who responds to every single one of his points through multiple multi-paragragh replies to him
>Has to mention he's engineer again for no good reason like every other argument he makes
Victor literally lives in this guy's head rent free, this video wasn't even on his channel this time lol.
>>

 No.304489

>>304485
Victor is such a chad. I bet he gets lot of pussy
>>

 No.304499

>>304485
he's a fan in the making
>>

 No.304508

>>304433
>handsome face
>handsome brain
how could any man ever hope to compete?

>>304473
two hours? ehh.. might have it on while doing other stuff. it is fun to hear this guy just destroy libs
>>

 No.304542

>>304473
oooof. I saw a good portion. The ubersoy guy should've just folded and apologized for being a retard.
>I used to be a communist for the aesthetics
typical nazbol/discord retards. The problematic aspect of aesthetic shit of online leftism is not talked about enough. It's fine to have fun and listen to communist music or whatever, but doing it too much is iffy as fuck.
>>

 No.304544

youtubers will go to gulag
>>

 No.304545

>>304542 (me)
sorry, last thing. This guy is very good at responding to questions and common arguments. I recommend anyone to listen to him. He's responding to the "why is aged wine more expensive". I've been asked this before (in an honest curious context) and couldn't answer it properly. This guy answered it masterfully.
>>

 No.304555

>>304545
What was his answer
>>

 No.304571

>>304555
(timestamped)
https://youtu.be/sWj-S1-xosE?t=6175
tl;dr: rare wines are unique commodities/non-reproducible commodities. Rare wines aren't what constitute the vast majority of commodities in an economy.

"Waiting time is not idle" is not true, because waiting time is not idle. Storage, space, work, monitoring, etc is costly.

In general, he also avoids meme questions, such as "what is the marxist opinion of belle delphine's bath water", and normative/utopian questions, such as "do u leik ancapistan?" or some other utopian bs. I realize the irony of posting this in the cybernetic socialism thread.
>>

 No.304576

>>304571
Fuck,
Meant to write:
"Waiting time is not accounted for" is not true.*

I was trying to transcribe while listening to the video, and I can't really walk and chew gum, so transcribing is insanely hard in comparison.
>>

 No.304594

>>304473
>>304508 (me)
I'll summarize the initial opening statements and exchange (up to around 45:50)

Victor opens with describing what LTV isn't, and goes on to say that it predicts relative prices
Ubersoy opens with something about political leanings in US economics departments. Thinks STV and marginalism are correct. Makes no argument
Victors calls out this lack of an argument. Admits schools other than the classical/Marxist school have many valid points. Asks Ubersoy to make an actual argument.
Ubersoy admits he doesn't know what use-value and exchange-value are. He uses minerals as an example. (we of course know that minerals are wealth, that they have no value until they are taken out of the ground)
Victor points out that all these are arguments from ignorance and that he can't debate someone who doesn't know what the categories use-value, exchange-value and value are. He then goes on to lecture Ubersoy what these are. Gets a bit annoyed at Ubersoy's use of particulars (price of rare wine) and not the general (the vast majority of commodities).
Ubersoy thinks LTV applies to everything. Makes some nonsense argument around consensus in economics. Thinks neoclassicals accept LTV.
>>

 No.304605

>>304571
Terrible response (just going by what you said).
>rare
The point with wine isn't about something rare, the point is about chemical processes that take time. Another example is tanning. It is something which also applies to reproducible commodities that are produced in a competitive environment.
>Storage, space, work, monitoring, etc is costly
That argument was also made by JS Mill and it's a cope. Because even if that work is minimal the market must bear a premium for waiting, otherwise the capitalist will rather invest in things that don't take that long. It is a systematic deviation from labor-value prices.
>>

 No.304627

>>304605
I find that thoroughly dubious, although I have no evidence or strong knowledge to back it up.
If there is indeed a large profit to be made by selling aged wine, then the market will eventually saturate and profits will not be as lucrative. This is my personal experience with these things. The time frame doesn't even matter. One of the few contradictions to this is real estate. Real estate's large profit margin has remained stable for a while at least where I am (around 20% I think? maybe even more? with a turn around of ~2-3 years?).
>>

 No.304637

>>304594
>Thinks neoclassicals accept LTV
Why does this guy think he can debate the LTV when he thinks Milton Friedman is a communist.
>>

 No.304641

>>304637
He probably thought he had to be a communist, since he was jewish
>>

 No.304655

>>304605
>>304627
if aged wine doesn't tend towards the price of reproduction, then it might not yet be fully commodified. What ever ageing does to "wine chemicals" can probably be achieved faster with an appropriate technique.
>>

 No.304659

>>304605
you dont know shit about wine, especially the one used in speculation
the ones that cost a lot are old, from renowed property, AND from a good year, which ensure a pretty fcking limited supply. its the same as modern art used as speculation tool at this point
>>

 No.304688

can we come up with taglines for this guy? Victor "The subjective destroyer" Magariño?

>>304571
>>304605
"waiting time" is part of what Marx calls the "time of production" in vol 2, which itself is part of turnover time. the working period is only a fraction of the time of production
different "waiting periods" have different requirements and different results. letting raw squared lumber sit outside to partially dry for further processing into planks does not incur much cost. drying planks on the other hand requires a controlled environment. you can do this with solar heat, which is cheap but takes longer time than drying using electric or oil fired heaters. this affects the cost and quality of the final lumber

>>304637
comes with the territory of being a theorylet
>>

 No.306330

>>304627
>If there is indeed a large profit to be made by selling aged wine, then the market will eventually saturate
The point was about forced waiting time due to chemical processes. The point was not about demand exceeding supply. The point was that one expects a systematic deviation of prices from labor-value ratios because of the long waiting time, meaning the deviation also exists in demand-supply equilibrium.

Look at it from the perspective of an investor: Two processes A and B have the same monetary costs for materials and the same monetary costs for labor, but process B has additional waiting time because of some required chemical process. If selling these outputs returns the same amount of extra dosh per dollar invested, why invest in B at all?

>Real estate

That is something else entirely.
>>304655
The point was that the prices deviate from labor values (not the same as reproduction prices) because of waiting time due to chemical processes. Wine is just an illustration of the general idea.
>>304659
Again, wine is just used to illustrate a more general idea. The details you bring up are irrelevant for that purpose.
>>

 No.306380

what do fellow cockshottists think of making a linear algebra study group? I studied it in college but have forgotten alot and would be interested in refreshing. No discord/element required, i literally just mean in this thread
>>

 No.306486

>>

 No.306661

File: 1623206944160.png ( 51.02 KB , 454x325 , gauss.png )

daily linear algebra pt 1, gaussian elimination.

Basically solving systems of equations

should be pretty easy
>>

 No.306662

File: 1623206997512.png ( 8.82 KB , 454x70 , q1.png )

>>

 No.306663

Anyone have anything to say about Cockshott’s apparent dislike of migrants? It’s disheartening, but hey, we can separate the man from his contributions to theory.
>>

 No.306690

https://youtu.be/uiT3FRCWIck
>>306380
Based Victor is already doing that
>>

 No.306695

>>306663
We can't expect everyone to be perfect because nobody is.
>>

 No.306699

>>306663
Did you witness this in the same dream where he murdered the gays?
>>

 No.307365

>>306663
are you denying the effects of supply and demand? porky can use his reserve army of labour to bring down wages. cockshott provides examples what can be done to counter this, for example mandatory union membership. he seems to ignore the effects of imperialism however
>>

 No.307429

>>306663
wtf are you talking about retard
>>

 No.307446

>>

 No.307519

>>

 No.307564

a)

2x + 3y = 13
x - y = -1

gonna scale row 1 by 1/2

x + (3/2)y = (13/2)
x - y = -1

r2 - r1

x + (3/2)y = (13/2)
5/2y = 15/2

for y = 3

x+(3/2)(3) = (13/2)

x + 9/2 = 13/2

x = 4/2 = 2
>>

 No.307577

>>306662
>>307564
b)

x - z= 0
3x + y = 1
-x + y + z = 4

r1 + r3

y = 4
3x + y = 1
-x + y + z = 4


from there we can solve the rest by substitution
y = 4

3x + 4 = 1

3x = - 3

x = -1

x - z = 0

-1 - z = 0

z = -1
>>

 No.307591

File: 1623248860786.png ( 30.17 KB , 579x246 , q2.png )

Daily Linear, question 2
>>

 No.307615

why the fuck are people doing literal fuck all algebra sums - when computers can do just as well
if you want to learn actual algebra use a better and rigorous book like artin, axler or hoffmann to actually understand the machinery of algebra
>>

 No.307715

File: 1623251980409.jpg ( 23.08 KB , 420x420 , 3d9916fbd228add08d547ac287….jpg )

>>307615
this is literally the first few questions of the first chapter of the book homie chill out, they get into the rigorous parts later.

everyones a critic
>>

 No.307725

>>307615
If you can't do all these sums right now, you're in retard mode and should start from zero to do them.
>>307715
Based, keep it up
Latex support on leftypol when?
>>

 No.307804

File: 1623253904239.png ( 45.77 KB , 605x182 , solutions.png )

>>307591
a) is in echelon form with no contradiction - so 1/unique solution (0,0)
b) confused about this one, because it seems to be in echelon form but there's no unique solution

y = z
y = 4 - x
therefore z = 4 - x
and x = 4 - y ?

c) same as b, the 0=0 changes nothing
d) no solution because of contradictory 0=4
e) infinite solutions because of non leading variable/not in EF
f) infinite solutions because of non leading /not in EF
g) no solution because of 0=4
h) infinite solutions, y = -2x and x = -(1/2)y
i) no solution due to 0=4
J) unique solution, z=0, y= 2, x = -3
>>

 No.307812

File: 1623254065878.png ( 42.93 KB , 605x275 , moregauss.png )

one more set of questions
>>

 No.307837

>>307804
The question says "each one is in echelon form". It also says you need each variable to be a leading variable for unique solution, I can't remember what this means though lel.
Don't be afraid to think intuitively. You have 2 planes that aren't parallel clearly, so there is some intersection that takes the form of a line, so infinite solutions.
>>

 No.308331

What's with the algebra in this thread? Is someone studying for school?
>>

 No.308350

>>308331
Linear algebra is an essential component of a modern understanding of economics (mainstream or marxian), and planning. Simple linear exchange requires just matrices, while more complicated functions of production use their differential generalizations.
>>

 No.308391

>>308350
No, I understand that, I'm just wondering why you're trying to learn it here.
>>

 No.308432

>>308391
its called a study group
>>

 No.309013

File: 1623289882440.jpeg ( 24.32 KB , 800x450 , epic.jpeg )

Math Lesson 1 From Victor https://youtu.be/keIemAuPMsY
>>

 No.309014

>>309013
thanks anon
>>

 No.309158

Since we're talking linear algebra, do you guys recommend the 3B1B series on the topic?
>>

 No.309192

>>309158
wholehearted, but only if you've already had a crack at the subject and failed to understand the intuition
>>

 No.309229

>>309158
his videos are better for people that have already tried to grasp the mechanical aspects of the field like >>309192 said
>>

 No.309268

look at this funny ancap trying to debunk cockshott
>>

 No.309507

>>309268
It seems that Cockshott is gaining quite a bit of notoriety these days. You love to see it
>>

 No.309514

>>309158
They're excellent, just watch em
>>

 No.309624

File: 1623328677975.png ( 61.49 KB , 152x254 , 1608755230849.png )

>>309268
>cockshott is misinterpreting mises!
>markets are the only way of measuring demand!
>consumers determine prices
>capitalism is when consumers have preferences
this guy manages to be amazingly wrong in just 2 minutes
he's insistent fisking is also very annoying

>>309507
>It seems that Cockshott is gaining quite a bit of notoriety these days. You love to see it
yes. for everyone watching that video there's going to be some % that actually looks up TANS
>>

 No.309700

>>309158
I don't recommend any of his videos. The only way to learn math is to do a lot of problems. Do problems until math becomes second nature to you like your native tongue.
>>

 No.309703

File: 1623333167960.png ( 749.94 KB , 1688x1026 , Screen Shot 2021-06-10 at ….png )

>>309268
Based Dickblast responds
>>

 No.309707

>>309700
>I don't recommend any of his videos
Even if only intended as an introductory to a certain mathematical topinc?
>>

 No.309708

>>309703
LOL!

On one hand its funny, OTOH Cockshott has to learn to not respond to every single internet weirdo.

He's coming from the world of academic where everyone has a baseline of competence and good faith, while the internet has neither
>>

 No.309709

File: 1623333769230.png ( 308.28 KB , 960x960 , The Socialist Boomer.png )

>>309703
I don't think I've ever seen him this furious before. Also, it is admireable that he actually responds to all his critics. Picrel
>>

 No.309711

>>309703
I don’t know why he is waiting his time like this the ECP since kantorovich has been nothing but motivated reasoning.
>>

 No.309712

>>309703
I'm kind of interested to see what the video creator's response will be to this instance of pure told
>>

 No.309713

>>309711
He is an academic and a boomer that doesn't know "unspoken internet rules". He doesn't understand that you just don't reply to braindead bait like this. These aren't his usual academic opponents that make actual arguments. So in a sense…he is like leftypol. He needs to learn how not to take bait. Also, I'm sure that some ancap who sees this response strolls by to his channel, because let's be honest, comparing Paul to this joke is laughable and anyone with a brain knows that
>>

 No.309715

>>309712
Idk, I don't want to give him vies tbqh
>>

 No.309716

>>309715
views*
>>

 No.309723

>>309703
Apperantly the guy in the video also doesn't believe in climate change
>>

 No.309724

lol
>>

 No.309727

File: 1623334714610-0.png ( 713.44 KB , 1228x1078 , Screen Shot 2021-06-10 at ….png )

>>309712
Here you go
>>

 No.309731

File: 1623334855684.png ( 257.08 KB , 1222x428 , Screen Shot 2021-06-10 at ….png )

>>309727
oops, didn't expand this comment
>>

 No.309736

File: 1623334920833.jpg ( 21.72 KB , 600x513 , Oh dear.jpg )

>>309727
>Cockshott when he realises that his "opponent" is genuinly retarded
>>

 No.309740

How do retards manage to write that much bullshit
>>

 No.309747

>>309703
>>309727
Homophobia and now this? We really need to question Cockshotts ethics at this point, because as shown here, he clearly has no remorse in bullying the mentally disabled
>>

 No.309753

File: 1623335435263.png ( 11.32 KB , 390x470 , 1337033945665.png )

>>

 No.309755

>>309747
Lmao had me in the first half
>>

 No.309756

scottym is a well known ancap borderline-schizo replying to him is barely one tier above replying to that furry ancap. Cockshott probably would have been better to ignore this guy
>>

 No.309760

Why does he think socialism can't have consumer demand?
>>

 No.309762

>>309756
You can't possibly expect Cockshott to know which critics on youtube are borderline schizo and which are not
>>

 No.309764

>>309762
best to ignore all youtube based critics and only pay attention to the academics then
>>

 No.309768

>>309764
Somebody should tell him. Either per e-mail or in the comments of his next video
>>

 No.309775

>>309760
because he's a dumdum
>>

 No.309786

>>309760
What do you mean by consumer demand?
>>309775
Call me when you are standing in the same arena as him one day
>>

 No.309816

>>309731
This guys ultimate argument is that it’s not real socialism when libertarians and libs do this you know they are seething and conceding the argument.
>>

 No.309834

>>309775 (me)
>>309816
I think it's actually just that he's suffering from petty bourgeois notions of what capitalism is. I see this all the time. libs having something like Adam Smith's optimistic view of the market system
>>

 No.310776

>>309713
You make it sound as if he had not been in online discussions for decades.
>>309727
By that guy's definition, you have a capitalism when you react to consumer demand. This means according to that guy the USSR was capitalist.
>>309786
Not that poster, but I'll answer anyway. That consumer demand influences production means that the rate of withdrawing consumer items affects decisions how much to produce of what. Projections of stock depleting or overflowing are also used to change the price as a temporary fallback measure.
>>309834
They are way dumber than that.
>>

 No.311904

>>309834
t. uyghur that hasn't read Adam Smith
>>

 No.312001

>>309707
Yes. Your time is better suited to doing problems.
>>

 No.312056

>>311904
you got me. well, except for what Marx quotes in Capital. but my point still stands that libs tend to have a naïve view of capitalism.
>>

 No.312183

>>312056
read Wealth of Nations and parallel to this Theories of Surplus-Value by Marx
>>

 No.312218

>>312001
Ok thanks for your tips anon. I love you
>>

 No.313982

>>312218
I love you too.
>>

 No.317065

Is there a discord for Cockshottfags who hate Hegel?
>>

 No.317099

>>317065
>muh science
Hegel is for subjectivity, forget the title of his book
>>

 No.317110

File: 1623650518420.png ( 65.14 KB , 200x283 , spyware.png )

>>317065
>discord
that's a corporate MCplatform spyware

make a matrix chat
https://matrix.org/
https://element.io/

But it's a good idea to have a chat room for non-Hegelian cybernetic socialists
>>

 No.317385

>>307812
linear algebra anon back here again.

sorry for before, i was out sick but ill be working on these some more in the coming week
>>

 No.317439

>>307812
Solving matrices with Gauss is such a fucking pain in the ass. Well if it is anything more than a 3x3 matrix
>>

 No.317442

File: 1623663194410.gif ( 1.64 MB , 500x381 , hello fbi.gif )

>>317110
>don't use corporate spyware apps haha, that way the nerds at ft meade get to read it haha
>use my special honeypot app so i can read your messages haha
Oh, you. That's a good try, Agent Hernandez.
>>

 No.317461

File: 1623663897122.jpg ( 58.95 KB , 931x597 , glowception.jpg )

>>317442
is that you new trick, to call others a glowy, to distract from the fact you are glowing

You can use your own matrix server and any matrix client you like, you don't have to use the one that i linked, if you think that the existing servers are honey pots. Or you can use another free software alternative. Just don't use discord because that definitely will spy on you, it says so explicitly in the terms of service.
>>

 No.317475

>>317099
Tell me why Hegel is relevant in 2021. Tell me how the arcane buzzword 'dialectic' which nobody really knows the meaning of enriches our conversations.
>>

 No.317477

File: 1623665676404.jpeg ( 20.27 KB , 299x288 , frari.jpeg )

>>317442
>FOSS, self-hostable, audited, self-auditable tool is better than capitalist centralized tool
>>

 No.317608

File: 1623671019660.jpg ( 24.58 KB , 291x227 , 1b819f327163364969a1383677….jpg )

>>

 No.317610

File: 1623671119747.jpg ( 38.95 KB , 479x361 , getinhere.jpg )

>>317065
>>317110
>>317442
>>317461
>>317477
I made an IRC channel: #cybersoc on irc.libera.chat

a haiku:
discord is botnet
matrix will be a mayfly
IRC live long
>>

 No.318028

>>317110
>>317610
Privacy on the internet in an inherently retarded and infeasible concept. For most people, privacy does not matter, and it is a good thing. Since its very inception the internet and its communication protocols were never designed with privacy in mind, because humans don't live a private lifestyle.

You are already monitored on a daily basis, and humans have been in general for thousands of years now. Not everyone can live a hermit lifestyle encrypting every bit of traffic that leaves their basement.

The upcoming integration of cloud based services and the IoT among machines, along with increased automation will help more people who don't care about retarded non issues like muh data mining and those super fucking great cooming sites you searched for the other month. Maybe you neckbeards should try leaving your house more often and realize that technology exists to serve social needs and thus information IS required in the process. Using busted up, old, Thinkpads and then cutting off hardware wiring does not make you any more special or 'secure'. Secure from what? Who exactly are you trying to hide from? Motherfucker I can guarantee that most of these self proclaimed 'privacy enthusiasts' are friendless losers, so nobody would care either way if anything happened to you.

The average human lifespan is around 80 years now, all that time that could be spent being open and social with people, living a carefree life, and instead you spend it on some vague concept of being 'le based privacy chad hackerman', someone who is so non-existent, even online, that the people of your own forums and imageboards won't recognize you.

You won't look back at all those years wasted on ricing up your machines and encrypting your TOR mails for gazillionth time, just in case of that tiny off chance that a glowie decided to read your smut collection that particular day. Though you might remember the day you had a good laugh with your friends on discord or other 'privacy nightmares'.
>>

 No.318111

>>318028
t. retard
>>

 No.318122

>>318028
I really wish you weren't so stupid
>>

 No.318176

File: 1623689060563.png ( 28.58 KB , 397x381 , discuck.png )

>>318028
>Privacy on the internet in an inherently retarded and infeasible concept.
This is the wrong way to frame it, workers should have strategically relevant information about capitalists, but capitalists should know as little as possible about workers. Information is power. You are trying to normalise that workers should be powerless.
Stop shilling for corporate spyware, and for fucks sake you can't equate surveillance capitalism with agrarian village life, large faceless corporations are not relatively harmless nosy neighbours. We will all regret not having listened to paranoid computer nerds when we are politically disenfranchised because it's not advertiser friendly speech if you express political opinions.
>>

 No.318182

>>318028
While most nerds on image boards probably are into privacy merely as a hobby it is good that they are so that people who actually need it can easily obtain information about securing their devices. Maybe some famous examples could be Snowden or Elbakyan (it was recently revealed the FBI obtained the contents of the latter's iCloud account, presumably looking for nude photos to blackmail her) but there are also people who just want to buy drugs on the internet. I don't see what good it does disparaging computer security enthusiasts at any rate.
>>

 No.318397

Did you seriously get discouraged from matrix by this one retard
leftypol itself is officially on matrix. We already have many rooms. If you're going to do a leftypol cybersoc room make it where people already are. We don't have an IRC.
>>

 No.318417

>>318397
is matrix usable yet on machines that don't have 32 GB of RAM? last time I looked at it the scoop was that it's a resource hog
>>

 No.318420

>>318417
It ran relatively well on my potato when I used it back when bunkerchan was still a thing.
>>

 No.318422

>>318420
interesting. then the main problem is that it isn't xmpp. damn splitters!
>>

 No.318490

>>318417
>>318422
I have a laptop that's over a decade old and it runs recent versions of Element (matrix's client) without any noticeable issues. Keep in mind that it's also more feature-rich than something like IRC, you can share and play gifs and videos in the chat.
>he main problem is that it isn't xmpp.
They actually support bridging to XMPP, IRC and many other chat platforms, with the stated goal of counteracting this tendency of preliferating walled gardens.
>>

 No.318515

>>318490
>it's also more feature-rich than something like IRC, you can share and play gifs and videos in the chat.
these are anti-features IMO. certainly not necessary
>They actually support bridging to XMPP, IRC and many other chat platforms
I've seen matrix bridges on IRC. didn't know they've implemented bridging to XMPP though. perhaps it's time to give matrix another look
>>

 No.318530

>>318417
Matrix is a protocol. The protocol is not the primary reason the resource usage of Element is high; that's due to Element being a big electron app. It's the most feature complete client right now however, as all others are still in beta stages since a lot of things on Matrix are pretty new. Still there are other GUI and even TUI clients one can use if they don't like Element. I know people who use gomuks (TUI client) as their primary client. You can find more clients at https://matrix.org/clients/

>>318515
>images and media are antifeatures
real bruh moment

To clarify, as I think there might be some misunderstanding here: anon was referring to simple media messaging, not some complex gif sending mechanism. Sending media in Matrix works just like any file transfer, it's just that Element allows you to view some media (images, videos, audio) inside the client itself, like any modern chat app.
>>

 No.318541

>>318530
yeah I had a bit of a look at clients. element isn't even in Debian so that's a relief. nheko and quaternion are what's easiest to get on my machine
>>

 No.318549

File: 1623700048133.jpg ( 31.25 KB , 800x450 , 30yoboomerd28.jpg )

>>318515
>these are anti-features IMO. certainly not necessary
>>

 No.318730

File: 1623705195611.webm ( 3.61 MB , 1280x720 , 1555302357063.webm )

>>318549
embrace your inner boomer
>>

 No.318751

File: 1623706184134.jpg ( 17.85 KB , 380x349 , angery.jpg )

alright I tried to register a goddamn matrix account on like five different servers and most of them require a captcha that doesn't work, and on the one that did work I can't fucking log in. even tried resetting my password but noo
also what is up with the retarded @username:example.com syntax instead of [email protected] like every other protocol read the RFCs you damn zoomers REEEEEE
>>

 No.318759

>>318751
Yeah, I always wondered that, too, lol.
>>

 No.318760

>>318751
Oh yeah you should use the site to register, then afterwards you can log in as normal on the desktop client
>>

 No.318763

>>318751
>what is up with the retarded @username:example.com syntax
Twitter holdover
>>

 No.318772

File: 1623706967072.jpg ( 94.41 KB , 1125x1006 , 1621856690071-0.jpg )

>>318028
No you retard. The internet wasn't designed with privacy in mind because when telnet was invited the only people connecting machines together were fucking Harvard Grads and Military Contractors. Holy fuck this is so ass backwards I can hardly believe this shit I am reading.

Why do the people who understand technology the least always feel the need to comment on it? I bet you use windows you fucking faggot. Go back to your desk at Micro$oft shill.

No one uses cloud networking. If anything, people are abandoning the modern internet in droves. Linux based systems have seen a dramatic spike in the last 10 years and there is Zero sighn that it is slowing down. People are starting to return to other protocols like gopher, or, SSH rather than HTTP, or, just flighting to places like this. The modern internet is shit and everyone knows it the discourse has just been monopolized by large corporations like discord, youtube, facebook, etc etc so people don't exactly realize there are alternatives.

Privacy does matter and people do care about it or HTTPS would not be an encryption standard enforced by the US government, to some degree. Usage statistics for protocols like Tor and i2p have fucking exploded in the last 5 years alone. Tor traffic takes up a massive chunk of internet traffic today (we have our own tor node here as a matter of fact) You are a dumb shill and will be put on shindlers list because "lol who cares about privacy?!" Fuck you. Leave and never come back. You have no idea what you are talking about with your idealistic bullshit fart huffing stem faggotry.
>>

 No.318774

>>318760
>Oh yeah you should use the site to register, then afterwards you can log in as normal on the desktop client
that's exactly what I did. maybe it's matrix.org that's too slow or some crap. tried logging in both via the web client and desktop client. I have a sneaking suspicion I'll have to set up matrix-synapse on my own damn server

>>318763
it's somehow even worse than the @[email protected] syntax that the mastodon side of the fediverse uses
>>

 No.318783

>>318774
>that's exactly what I did […] tried logging in both via the web client […]
Oh then that's strange. Sure you didn't have too many script blockers on for the site to function properly? I have a slight memory of that, I put "allow all scripts temporarily" in NoScript and then got a captcha that wasn't there before if I recall correctly.
>>

 No.318785

>>318783
yeah I disabled all filtering in uMatrix for it. it's getting late, might try again tomorrow
>>

 No.318926

>>210868
when libs hear about how Walmart uses computer planning, they always claim that it'd never work under socialism because final inputs and outputs are still decided by market conditions and price mechanisms

how do we respond to this and push the notion that the same sort of central planning could be used across an entire economy?
>>

 No.318930

File: 1623715735770.png ( 595.9 KB , 994x989 , glowie.png )

>>

 No.319344

File: 1623738483448.png ( 264.74 KB , 1768x585 , On Socialist Calculation.png )

>>318926
>they always claim that it'd never work under socialism because final inputs and outputs are still decided by market conditions and price mechanism
They're right about that, but they are generally pretty ignorant about how planning worked in the past and try to sell it as an impossibility with "too many equations to solve". Picrel
>>

 No.319352

Is skynet cybersoc?
>>

 No.319516

>>319344
>They're right about that
no they're not, and the pic you posted even explains why. all we need to do is measure demand. this can be done in many ways, for example the pseudo-markets proposed in TANS. we could also have a pre-order system.
>>

 No.319518

>>319516
>no they're not, and the pic you posted even explains why
Sorry, I didn't clarify. They're right when they say that capitalist corporations, albeit planned internally, still respond to market mechanism. What they are not right, is that we can't "expand" planning to a whole national economy.
>>

 No.319527

>>319518
right, I suspected this is what you actually meant.
one thing I'm afraid of is that some company like amazon will attempt to achieve autarky. the result would be a planned autocracy
>>

 No.319552

>>319527
They still need to accumulate. I don't know how autarky makes sense in the longterm then, if they are really going for it
>>

 No.319575

>>319552
it could make sense as a scheme to pay less taxes. but then again bezos hardly pays any taxes as it is. there's the contradiction I guess. eventually you accoomulate so much that you start having workers born into the company, run an internal funeral service and so on. but at that stage who are you going to sell to?
>>

 No.319905

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GINfZUCmesM
New Victor Magariño debate with Ubersoy about the LTV
>>

 No.321878

>>319905
His voice is so soothign
>>

 No.322228

File: 1623863077929.jpeg ( 75.02 KB , 600x1242 , h.jpeg )

>>309709
ok but the word is schema. not schematic.
!!!!!!
>>

 No.322773

Math lesson 2 from Vic https://youtu.be/0MprDdMBSDE
>>

 No.322794

File: 1623885033494.png ( 250.71 KB , 716x568 , seniorjunior.png )

>>321878

All i hear when vic speaks is senior junior from kim possible
>>

 No.322795

>>

 No.323347

Could anyone link here those Victor articles he mentioned to UBERSOY which supposedly show how LTV applies to all most important modern industries? I would love to see it and use it to counter the "Marx was wrong because muh service sector is most prevelant today and not manufacturing".
>>

 No.323588

>>318028
We haven't had any mass murders in the West since WW2. That's just luck. Everyone who is on the undesirables list is easier to find now that they share all their information on the internet. The next mass slaughter will use internet activity and target the undesirables with autonomous weapons like the Kargu-2 drones recently used in Libya.

You underestimate the ability to hype leaders into a lethal frenzy. The Holocaust took a few years. With modern tech, the next mass slaughter (not an if, but when) will be over in an hour.
>>

 No.323773

File: 1623956495750.png ( 167.44 KB , 640x313 , ClipboardImage.png )

>>318926
U have to consider that Walmart is simply a distributor and except for their Great Value brand not a producer
I could see it functioning more like vertical integration with everything from the production of goods to the "sale" of goods handled seamlessly
The problem with Carnegie's monopoly and others that used this in the past wasn't that they ran their businesses scientifically rather that they ran businesses for profit, leading to the corruption and fuckery of capitalism and monopolies
>>

 No.323936

File: 1623962646567.jpg ( 2.89 KB , 111x107 , wtf_sunglasses.jpg )

>>323588
is this eugene posting as an anon?
>>

 No.325109

File: 1624019463274.png ( 1.32 MB , 1962x1002 , Screen Shot 2021-06-18 at ….png )

Hegelbros btfo
>>

 No.325115

>>325109
He should just STFU about things he knows nothing about. Jesucristo santo con Paul Tiropene… anglosajones 😤.
>>

 No.325139

File: 1624022210402.jpeg ( 8.24 KB , 300x168 , uyb.jpeg )

>>325115
Maybe you should stop clinging to obsolete modes of thought
>>

 No.325691

>>

 No.325697

>>325109
if you really want to be specific hegel said much more obvious stuff
for example identity works trough the negation of what it not is etc
this are things you would know if you actually read marc and engels
>>

 No.325700

>>323588
>like the Kargu-2 drones recently used in Libya
Would you tell me more about this or post a link?
>>

 No.325852

>>325697
That's exactly what PC is talking about in the picture you retard.
>>

 No.326006

>>325691
>Steampunk Marxism
Based
>>

 No.326028

File: 1624063061103.png ( 2.21 MB , 1329x991 , ClipboardImage.png )

>>325691
tfw Cockshott tries to run away from Hegels Hermetic Alchemy
>>

 No.326456

Cockshott posted a proposal for contemporary political strategy written by an American socialist he was in correspondence with.
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2021/06/18/neo-socialism-part-1-2-etc/
>>

 No.326517

>>326456
>The following email was sent to me by someone who wishes to go by the pen name “Patriotic American Socialist,” who happens to also be a US military officer.
Based as a fuck.
>>

 No.326525

File: 1624095779492.png ( 79.65 KB , 642x480 , ClipboardImage.png )

>>326517
>Knee jerk anti-imperialism meanwhile creates a sort of ineffectual pacifism at best (or anti-US/pro-dictator slant at worst) that becomes a huge liability during the 90% of the time when America is facing a foreign policy threat. Bernie Sanders, for example, never articulated a clear strategy to defeat ISIS.

interesting
>>

 No.326593

>>326525
I cant wait for the socialist US to liberate Europe of the fascist hordes at the end of the century.
>>

 No.326642

>>325691
>1431 unread messages
paul doesn't seem to believe in clearing his inbox
>>

 No.326993

>>326456
interesting. what's this Philadelphia Model that PAS talks about?
>how to resurrect economic planning via networks of small business (Japanese or early American style) starting from a local level
this is something I've been thinking about lately, but around co-ops instead of typical small businesses. but then again most small businesses don't have any employees besides the owner. some that do have employees are small business tyrants, but that's probably the minority
>>

 No.327122

>>326525
>foreign policy threat
What does this even mean? I agree that the antiwar left at present is culturally too woke ("black and brown bodies") and has no real strategy, but this is entirely separate. It almost glows tbh
>>

 No.327152

>>327122 (me)
>(1) Don’t go to war unless you have to. (2) But if you do have to go to war, fight it properly! (And this is where understanding the dynamics of war come in).
Bros….
>>

 No.327166

>>327152
I mean, that's just "talk calmly and carry a big stick"
>>

 No.327378

File: 1624138926345.jpg ( 28.74 KB , 373x336 , Yankee-Pond.jpg )

>>327166
Ah, you're right, he's clearly an anti-imperialist.
>>

 No.327420

any other works on Cybersocialism I should read alongside Cockshott?
>>

 No.327426

>>327420
Brain of the Firm by Stafford Beer I guess. Not really socialist -per se-, but touches on similar ground as Cockshott in many respects. In fact just read most of Beer's work if you the time.
>>

 No.327455

>>

 No.327462

Hey anons, was wondering if you would critique my post here: >>326101
>>

 No.327470

did cockshott write about China's imperialism?

>>326525
why on earth would the US need to defeat ISIS so badly that Bernie Sanders the social imperialist needed to come up with a plan to do so?
>>

 No.327474

>>325697
> identity works trough the negation of what it not is
WTF does this mean? You Hegeloids need to start using English.
>>

 No.327476

>>327470
tbh i dont really care about cockshotts thoughts on praxis, he's very strong in theory and political economy but his ideas on praxis and a way forward in practical terms we are probably better served elsewhere
>>

 No.327483

It's simple. The identity of something is the negation of what it is not. For instance, let us look at the identity of a human. What is a human not? A dog. What do you get when you negate a dog? Not a dog. So, a human is not a dog.
>>

 No.327484

>>327470
I kinda highlighted that out of the whole email because an officer should know that ISIS was created by the US, so hes either doing pro-US military propaganda or uninformed and pushing electoralism due to a lack of understanding about what imperialism is and papering over it with his secret military knowledge about the 'real dynamics of war'.
>>

 No.327487

>>327483
Spinoza invented the idea of determination through negation, Hegel just used it because he's a spinozist
>>

 No.327501

>>327484
Hopefully he is just young and doesn't know. Someone should get him to talk to @HellOfAWay and @EyesLeftPod they could probably put it in terms he already understands. His second principle of war "But if you do have to go to war, fight it properly!" relies on the empire not setting it up so you "have to" go to war and would completely undermine his election strategy everytime they invent a new boogie-man.
>>

 No.327513

>>327501
Exactly. Unless you view the Cold War in geopolitical terms instead of ideological (and thereby see the world in terms of cold Realpolitik), the US has not "had to" go to war since at least WW2. This shouldn't be controversial for a communist.
>>

 No.327548

File: 1624147637936.jpg ( 78.67 KB , 491x600 , parmenides_velia_jan.jpg )

>>

 No.327651

>>327487
>Spinoza invented the idea of determination through negation
Ok how is any of this useful to anything? …..
>>

 No.328292

Is the thread for discussing fully-automated space Juche? It seems like I'm finally home.
>>

 No.328295

>>327487
not true, already a thing in ancient times
>>

 No.328598

>>328292
No. Juche is an anti-Marxist pseudoreligion and we disapprove of it here.
>>

 No.328627

>>328292
Probably.
>>328598
Relax.
>>

 No.328960

>>328292
we'd had discussion about DPRK maybe being a place to get cybersocialism going. but juche seems too insular to me. it can be shown that it is better to run everything as a single global planned economy rather than each nation doing their own thing. maybe I'm misunderstanding what juche is about though.
>>

 No.328963

>>328292
Cockshott says the DPRK is socialist, that's good enough for me
>>

 No.329511

it's worth pointing out to Juche nerds that the DPRK officially states they're no longer a Marxist-Leninist regime as that ideology no longer suits them and that their Juche theory is a higher theory.
>>

 No.329513

File: 1624278444420.png ( 44.94 KB , 879x454 , cockshott dprk socialism.png )

>>328963
based Cockshott
>>

 No.329514

>>329513
Cockshott also thinks gays should be taxed for existing, so he's not correct on everything.
>>

 No.329516

Also his understanding of democracy is that representatives should not be elected but randomly chosen. That is fucking insane. This guy is retarded on a lot of things.
>>

 No.329520

>>329516
ok buddy give me a source on that
>>

 No.329522

>>329514
and give me a source on that too
>>

 No.329524

>>329516
>>329514
Radlib seethe
>>

 No.329528

File: 1624279759143.jpg ( 322.98 KB , 1280x720 , mpv-shot0001.jpg )

NEW VIDEO
>Again on Indian productivity
<Continuing my polemic with the neo-Proudhonians. Refutes empirical objections to my previous video on the so called unequal exchange.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT5C_8QZG9I 14min 22sec
>>

 No.329531

>>329516
>[sortition] is fucking insane
sortition can easily be shown to be more democratic than any electoral or one-party system. that is, that it more accurately represents the great masses (demos), since it amounts to a random sampling of the population. do you have a problem with democracy?
>>

 No.329588

>Conclusions and Outlook
>28.1 Summary of Advanced Planning

>The preceding chapters have shown the different steps of implementing an APS, starting with the analysis of a given supply chain, its redesign and subsequently modeling the supply chain from long-term to short-term decision and planning levels. The integration of all planning tasks relating to the fulfillment of customer demand will result in a superior enterprise wide and supply chain wide planning.

>Thereby, an APS will not only yield improvements on the three crucial factors of competitiveness, namely costs, quality, and time, but it will also allow for
> • Making processes and the state of the supply chain more transparent
> • Improving flexibility of the supply chain
> • Revealing system constraints
> • Managing the three buffer types—inventory, capacity, and time—more effectively
> • Providing advanced optimization techniques to solve complex decision problems
> • Computing what-if scenarios, simulating the impact of decisions in the supply chain.

>Widely available information from all over the supply chain enables the supply chain components to anticipate the demand picture at all stages of the chain, to plan the supply accordingly, to identify and resolve constraints, and to manage the buffers in the supply chain such that service level, costs, and working capital are optimized to meet the business goals. The order fulfillment processes in the supply chain become more transparent, efficient, and effective. Companies and supply chains are able to provide customers with accurate information about the order status and with alerts in the case that an unexpected event causes the delayed delivery of an order. However, before this happens a decision maker can find and check based on an APS alternative ways to fulfill the customer’s order, either by a shipment from another warehouse or another production site or by offering products that might be substituted for the product originally requested. Additionally, transparent processes will reduce waste along the supply chain, because waste, e.g. resulting from excess inventories or resources with low utilization rates, will be recognized quickly and measures for its improvement may be introduced. More importantly,

due to its optimization capabilities, an APS will keep waste to a minimum, right from the beginning.

>With markets and customer expectations changing quickly, supply chains not only have to respond but to anticipate new trends. In some cases, this may be achieved by integrating key customers or key suppliers in the supply chain models represented by the APS. On the other hand, flexibility comes into play, which can be discussed along two dimensions: One is to be able to cope with changes in actual demand given the current inventory position, equipment and personnel, the other is to be able to adapt to changing markets over time (sometimes called agility, see Pfohl and Mayer 1999). An APS supports both dimensions. As an example, the ATP module can show ways of using existing inventories in the most effective manner. Also, Production Planning and Scheduling allows for the re-optimization of a new mix of orders quickly. Flexibility is further enhanced by an APS, due to a significant reduction of the frozen (firmed) horizon (as an example see Chap. 22). Midterm Master Planning should not only coordinate the decentralized decision units, but also plan for a reasonable degree of flexibility over time. Finally, APS-based ATP supports more flexible rules for allocating supply to demand and to schedule the fulfillment of customer orders.


>In order to improve competitiveness, the revelation of system constraints is a crucial part of a continuous improvement process (see also Goldratt 1999). System constraints may be detected at different levels of the planning hierarchy. For example, midterm Master Planning will not only provide an optimal solution for a given situation, it also shows which constraints are binding, i.e. preventing a higher level of our objectives. Looking for ways to lift the system’s constraints, e.g. by a more flexible employment of the workforce, will further improve competitiveness. This will give rise to defining several scenarios from which to choose. Compared with former times, defining a scenario and getting an answer is now a matter of hours, not weeks. Therefore, management and planning staff can work together more closely and effectively than before.
>>

 No.329593

>>329588
>28.2 Further Developments of APS

Some of the above statements may still be regarded as visions. But as our case studies have shown, there are already implementations of APS in industry that are showing impressive improvements. In order to extend these success stories to a wider range of companies and supply chains, five main topics have to be addressed carefully:
> • Improving modeling and solution capabilities of APS
> • Ensure that the required master and transactional data is available and consistent
> • Linking APS to controlling
> • Extending the applicability of APS to polycentric supply chains
> • Integrate APS with the automation layer of technical processes (SCADA, Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition).
>>

 No.329594

>>329593
>28.2.1 Modeling and Solution Capabilities of APS
>Although APS are around for several years, additional features are expected to be introduced in the near future. However, the standard architecture of modules most probably will remain stable. Experiences with some modules have shown that some restrictions still may exist in modeling a given (production) process adequately. Given that supply chains have to adapt to new market trends quickly, modeling should be easy to learn and fast to implement. Likewise, one should expect a similar modeling language for all modules provided by an APS vendor (unfortunately this is not always the case). Furthermore, we experienced that not all models generated have been solvable within reasonable time limits or have not shown a satisfactory solution quality. However, minor changes in the model have improved solvability significantly. Hence, enhanced modeling capabilities and more robust solution procedures solving large problem instances are still looked for.
>>

 No.329598

>>329594
>28.2.2 Quality of Master and Transactional Data
>Models and plans are only of value if they have an impact on a supply chain’s decision making and operations. This obvious statement is often ignored in practice. First of all, master and transactional data must be of high quality and reflect reality at a level of detail that is matching the intended scope and results from planning. If the level of detail is too low, the plan will not reflect the right decisions a human planner might have taken, aware of all details and based on experience. If the level of detail is too high, the model will become very complex, it might take too long to solve planning problems based on the model, and the quality of the data on which the model is based will be lower: The more details a model comprises, the higher the probability that some data element is not accurate or even wrong.

>Secondly, if reality is changing faster than the total time required for data extraction, transformation and provision to create the model, the planning process and optimization time, and the approval and communication of the resulting planning decisions, the quality of the decisions will deteriorate. In this case, acceptance of the planning results and the planning system will suffer, and decision makers will use alternative tools for generating solutions like spreadsheets, where they have better control of the data and the cycle time between data collection and planning results. However, using spreadsheets usually incurs severe drawbacks like lack of data security and consistency as well as an inferior solution quality.


>Along with the increasing digitalization of the world and the improving bandwidth, pervasiveness, and semantics of communication networks, we enter an age of ubiquitous information availability. This includes the space of inter- and intra-company communication networks and the space of individual communication devices, connecting planners, decision makers, production supervisors, buyers, transport personnel, managers, sales representatives, etc. every time and everywhere with other persons and systems being involved in the supply chain. This allows for new solutions to feed latest information from the actual execution processes to the planning system, updating the model and allowing for instant plan updates. Some APS vendors like SAP and E2open plan to setup APS-based cloud solutions, enabling a seamless and fast integration of all people and systems in the supply chain. User interfaces will be derived from social media systems (being the most prevalent data entry systems globally) and will support distributed entry of data and collaboration at the planning tasks at hand, e.g. Sales & Operations Planning (see Sect. 8.4).
>>

 No.329601

>>329598
>28.2.3 Linking APS to Controlling
>Today, management is more inclined to make use of tools from (the) controlling (department), like budgets or the balanced scorecard, than to rely on APS. Hence, greater emphasis should be placed on linking APS modules with controlling, either by linking decision models to key performance indicators or - even better - to incorporate APS into the tool set of controlling.
>A good example for the tight integration of controlling processes and supply chain planning are the yearly budgeting process and the demand and master planning processes (sales & operations planning process). Both create an anticipated picture of future customer demand. The former to determine the required financial means to run the business and to allocate budgets to cost centers. The latter to prepare the supply chain for delivering the future demand, to detect limiting constraints, to set a foundation for order promising (ATP). Budgeting is normally done yearly, sales & operations planning monthly or even weekly.
>Although both process areas - budgeting and S&OP - might use the same demand plan, this is not always desired. There might be scenarios where not all details of the operational S&OP plan shall be shared with public, whereas the financial budget plan must be made public, at least in an aggregated format for listed corporations. In any case, the operational plan for supply chain purposes and the public plan for budgeting purposes should be aligned as close as possible and the deviation between the two plans should be made explicit, managed and carefully tracked.
>A second example of the tight integration of controlling and APS concerns performance management. As described in the previous section APS integrate a large amount of master data and transactional data from customer processes, production processes, transportation, warehousing, procurement, etc. Thus, APS are a perfect source for data that might be used to calculate performance metrics like process times, process costs, inventory, service levels. These operational metrics are of high relevance to setup controlling tools like a Balanced Scorecard. A Balanced Scorecard includes further metrics from finance, customer, other processes, and learning and people perspective. Thus, it creates a 360ı view of the performance of a company, that might help in a supply chain context to derive decisions.
>>

 No.329606

>>329601
you don't need to quote the entire book anon
>>

 No.329608

>>329601
>28.2.4 Extending APS to Polycentric Supply Chains
>So far, APS are best suited for supply chains with centralized control, i.e. mainly for intra-organizational supply chains. Although information exchange, in principle, is no problem for APS implemented in an inter-organizational supply chain, the willingness to operate on the basis of “open books” (e.g. regarding costs and available capacities) cannot always be assumed. Although collaborative planning (Chap. 14) has been introduced, the knowledge of how to adapt plans generated in different planning domains is still in its infancy.
>One industry sector is currently leading the development of inter-organizational supply chain management: the electronics industry, mainly large volume consumer electronics OEMs, contract manufacturers, and the corresponding components suppliers:
> • OEMs like Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, and Hewlett-Packard, own the brand and the product design and are responsible for marketing and distributing the finished goods via electronics retailers or their own outlet stores.
> • Contract manufacturers or specialized assembly plants of the OEMs act as integrators for the component supply chains, synchronizing the demand for assembly, the component supply, and the schedule for the introduction of new product revisions.
> • The component suppliers integrate closely into the assembly and distribution stages of the supply chain, synchronizing their own component assembly with the assembly schedule of the contract manufacturer or OEM assembly plants.
>In the electronics industry sector demand and supply are changing fast, due to the dynamics in the network (many active players being highly interconnected) and the rapid innovation rate and new product introduction. To balance demand and supply, APS and the corresponding planning processes must extend across legal entities, represent customer demand, inventories and supply capabilities of all sites in the network, and come up with an inter-organizational demand and supply plan.
>Typical features in the electronics supply chain planning processes are daily demand commits, feasible production, procurement and transportation plans (rough cut), and optimized air vs. sea transportation. These regular demand and supply updates incorporate the complete electronics supply chain including retailers, OEMs, contract manufacturers, components suppliers and logistics service providers (Karevaska and Kilger 2013).
>Great efforts are currently undertaken by APS vendors to match planning issues facing industry sectors with the capabilities of an APS, e.g. inter-organizational planning approaches as discussed above for the electronics industry sector, the issue of safety stocks in a multi-level supply chain, and the issue of incorporating lot-sizing (rules) at different (hierarchical) planning levels. An additional strategy toward a better fit is to devise specific APS modules focusing on the specific needs of certain industry sectors. A further trend addresses the combination of decentralized control on the detailed level with centralized control on a more aggregated level of the supply chain. As Daganzo (2003) shows, decentralized control in a supply chain may lead to a good solution close to the optimum, if certain rules are defined and observed by supply chain partners. These rules might for instance level production quantities at one process, ensuring certain bounds for the consumed and produced quantities upstream and downstream in the supply chain, respectively. Many of these rules have been developed in the context of Lean Manufacturing (see Womack and Jones 2003 for an overview). Some APS vendors like SAP for instance started initiatives to extend their SCM suites (including the APS).
>>

 No.329611

>>329606
I'm quoting only the conclusion, because I figured people will be too lazy to open the book.
>>

 No.329620

>>329608
>28.2.5Integration of APS with the Automation Layer of Technical Processes
>Under the umbrellas of large research initiatives like Internet of Things in the U.S. and Industrie 4.0 in Germany the technical platforms for production, transportation, warehousing, and distribution processes are changing fundamentally. The essence of this change are enhanced capabilities of technical equipment, parts, assemblies, finished goods, transport units, etc. to connect to the Internet and to form integrated networks that can be controlled by software layers like automation software, manufacturing execution systems, transactional systems like ERP systems, and APS.
>In some industry sectors, that require fast reaction to demand and supply changes, fast product change overs, and low cost of goods sold like the fresh milk industry, new scenarios of integrating APS with the automation layer of technical processes are emerging. Consider a fresh milk production facility, consisting of the raw milk storage, multiple filling and packaging lines, and the cold store buffering the finished goods before they are picked up by retailers for distribution. A typical fresh milk production site is responsible for 30–80 SKUs (different packaging sizes and styles, different raw milk qualities, different fat grades, lactose free vs. regular, different brands and labels). This portfolio has to be produced every day. Stock-outs lead to loss in sales for the milk producer and for the retailers, as consumers will change to another supermarket if fresh milk is not available. Therefore, the filling and packaging lines usually have a higher capacity than required to fulfill the total demand of a day. The constraining factor is the cold store, that can hold only a limited volume of SKUs (running a cold store is energy-intensive and therefore produces high costs). As a consequence, if the filling and packaging lines are producing at full speed, the cold store will be completely filled after a couple of hours.
>By integrating the automation layer of the machines in the filling and packaging lines with the APS of the production site, the speed and the product mix of the lines can be directly controlled by the APS, synchronizing the distribution and replenishment plan of the retailers with the production plan and the production execution.
>By integrating the automation layer of the machines in the filling and packaging lines with the APS of the production site, the speed and the product mix of the lines can be directly controlled by the APS, synchronizing the distribution and replenishment plan of the retailers with the production plan and the production execution.
>>

 No.329628

>>329620
>As the Internet of Things and Industrie 4.0 initiatives are driven forward, we expect further scenarios to emerge where the automation layer of technical processes will be directly integrated with an APS. This integration will plug the technical equipment of manufacturing, transportation, warehousing, and distribution directly into a supply chain planning layer, allowing for immediate transformation of supply plans into execution.

>28.3 Management of Change Aspects

>In order to use APS effectively, managers and employees must have special training, enabling them to interpret solutions, recognize interactions with other parts of the supply chain, set up scenarios and react to alerts appropriately. In addition to project management, the mastery of change management and the basics of computer science, consultants now must have knowledge and experience in generating adequate models of the supply chain for the different modules of an APS. These models, neither being too detailed nor too rough, have to support decision making and must be solvable with reasonable computational efforts. Inadequate models may even deteriorate the position of the supply chain instead of improving it.
>Introducing an APS is not just adding another software package to those already existing in a company. On the contrary, it will replace many individual software solutions formerly “owned” by individual employees. Also, some types of decisions, which formerly required several employees, like creating a detailed schedule for the shop floor, will now be made (almost) automatically. Consequently, some of the employees will have to change to other positions, which may result in some resistance to change. On the other hand, optimization capabilities of APS will yield better plans than before with the additional option of checking alternatives interactively, thus giving those involved a greater satisfaction.
>Last but not least, one should bear in mind that introducing an APS changes the way an organization or supply chain works. The definition of processes fulfilling the needs of different market segments will have to be reflected within the organizational structure. For legally separated firms or profit centers within a single firm covering only a portion of a given process, an effective reward system has to be installed in order to achieve the best solution for a supply chain as a whole and not get trapped in isolated sub-optima (see e.g. Fleischmann 1999).
>Recent reports on APS implementation projects have shown that the above recommendations should be taken seriously. Some APS users may have observed a discrepancy between their expectations, the vendors’ promises and the capabilities of consultants as well as the APS software. In order that all parties involved get a realistic view, prototyping seems to be a good choice. Also, great visions should not be approached in one step, instead a stepwise introduction of SCM ideas and software support seems more appropriate.
>>

 No.329630

>>329628
>28.4 Scope of Supply Chain Management
>In recent years, several empirical studies have been conducted aiming at the revelation of key success factors for an effective, superior supply chain. As one may expect, a great number of factors have been proposed and tested. Two noteworthy factors, which have been found to be significant, are “. . . structural elements such as having an integrated information system, and behavioral relationship building elements such as trust and commitment . . . ” (Jayaram et al. 2004). These findings are in accordance with our recommendations throughout this book.
>There are different ways to set up supply chains, each capable of achieving specific strategic and operational goals of the company. Redesign of organizations and processes builds on strategic objectives as well as on enabling information technology. Performance Management has to ensure transparency in operational control information, but also provides tools and methods to lead all employees to achieving the strategic goals. Innovative information technology—like APS—provide new ways of working, accelerating the business, and thus creating sources of strategic impact (“Business drives IT & IT drives Business”). Change management is the binding and bonding element in making the business transformation sustainable, by addressing skills and capabilities, but also behavior and the value system of the people.
>With regard to future developments of SCM as a whole, one can expect that it will not only concentrate on the order fulfillment process alone, but will incorporate neighboring processes like product life cycle management, automation of technical processes, and financial management.
>>

 No.331410

File: 1624382952823.jpg ( 11.88 KB , 164x199 , Victor_Glushkov_envelope-c….jpg )

>>331387
read up on the ECP, destroy them on that. cockshott has more than one video on it, and the Austrian school in general. obviously read TANS if you haven't
other people to read include Leontief, Kantorovich and Glushkov
what's your education level? how much math do you know?
>>

 No.331416

>>331387
>>331410 (me)
if you want something really snappy, point of that when Hayek formulated the ECP the term computer was a job title, not the machines we use today
>>

 No.331428

File: 1624383434292.jpg ( 24.79 KB , 640x360 , mpv-shot0007.jpg )

NEW VIDEO
>Mr Mittal
<This is a further video responding to viewers comments about the steel industries in India and the USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frk2s_ggzt8 10min 19sec
>>

 No.331447

>>329611
But what you post looks like how people write when they need to hit a word-amount requirement.
>Internet of Things and Industrie 4.0
Reading these terms made me lose all interest in reading that book. Post an algorithm.
>>

 No.331476

>>331447
>But what you post looks like how people write when they need to hit a word-amount requirement.
what, never touched business econ book before? just parse through corpspeak

>Post an algorithm.

what algorithm, you lazy fuck, all optimization algorithms implemented in software are proprietary
>>

 No.331815

File: 1624397943341.jpg ( 369.88 KB , 746x586 , Hiawatha_-_Eakins.jpg )

I am not in STEM. I am too dumb for STEM. I am in my country's army and do not have anything useful to contribute to the Cockshottist discussion. I am not very useful.

But out of all the left-wing currents I've been exposed to, Cockshott and this thread have enamoured me the most. I do not understand most of what is said here, and 99% of Cockshott makes my tinnitus flare up, but please do not stop. Most of you are probably my age, and when Cockshott passes away I do not want this cybernetic socialism to disappear with him. He is a giant, make yourselves giants too. Do not fight or split. I am not intelligent enough to be a giant of politics or activism, but I hope one day one of you will begin something grand, and I will be there to follow you.
>>

 No.331817

>>331815
I'm going to major in polisci or history or education and likely become a teacher/professor but I want to work as little as possible so I shill technology
>>

 No.331839

>>331476
>all optimization algorithms implemented in software are proprietary
Absurd claim.
>>

 No.331856

>>331476
>all optimization algorithms implemented in software are proprietary
are you aware that cockshott himself uses free software like lp_solve?

>>331815
don't call yourself dumb anon. we all have different things we're good at. I'm good at computers and math, but I'm weak and my knees ache every moment of my life. I have to drink alcohol to be able to walk for any length of time
>>

 No.331914

>>306663
Wtf I love cockshott now.
>It’s disheartening, but hey, we can separate the man from his contributions to theory.
What matters is why he reached that conclussion, not how it makes you feel, you fag. Can you link source?
>>

 No.331928

>>

 No.331934

>>331928
I only read his book.
I find youtube lectures insufferable.

Thanks tho.
>>

 No.331944

>>331934
He basically reads his own script with a few comments here and there. No 'uuuhh' and 'eeerrr'. Just put it on Speed ×1.50 and you're good.
>>

 No.332158

File: 1624416375670.jpg ( 648.66 KB , 1080x1189 , file.jpg )

>>329516
I agree. Wouldn't want the mob to gain political power, now would we?
>>

 No.332214

>>329630
So are thy advocating vertical integration, Rockefeller style?
>>

 No.332217

>>

 No.332261

>>331856
>are you aware that cockshott himself uses free software like lp_solve?
I'm talking about software that actual corporations use, like SAP. Each software vendor implements their own optimization algorithms that are proprietary, and much faster than lp_solve.
>>

 No.332271

>>329531
democracy is shit
>>

 No.332294

>>332214
>So are thy advocating vertical integration, Rockefeller style?
Interesting question. I guess you can say legally separate firms in a Polycentric Supply Chain are de facto vertically integrated, because they share the same production information system. I wonder what Antitrust authorities would say about this, if there's one thing they get really agitated about, it is vertical integration. The Fall of the Bell System, the largest antitrust case, was brought about by vertical integration of Bell Labs, Western Electric, Long Distance Lines, and local "bells".
>>

 No.332315

>>332271
because oligarchic and monarchical rule have turned out so well amirite?
>>

 No.332387

>>332315
those aren't the only options
>>

 No.332398

>>332271
Go to bed Evola
>>

 No.332411

>>306663
>>331914
>>331934
He isn't against migrants you idiots, I have no idea how you interpret it that way.
>>

 No.332419

>>306663
Saying that migration gives capital an out to suppress wages =/= saying that immigrants are bad.
>>

 No.332464

File: 1624434478372.jpeg ( 184.5 KB , 1269x1443 , build not bomb.jpeg )

>>332411
>He isn't against migrants you idiots, I have no idea how you interpret it that way.
Every defense of material interests of the working class is painted as some kind of immorality. Everything that is benefiting the interests of capitalists is framed as a moral good. It makes no sense to grant these people their premise, there is no moral position on immigrants. Capitalism creates local conditions that makes people flee their home, legitimate political positions are about how capitalism can be stopped from doing that.
>>

 No.332573

>>332464
I agree? Was this made as a response against my point, or for it? Migration itself is not the issue, and the focus on it is a red herring that will never be "addressed" under capitalism. What need to address is capitalism itself. However, Cockshott's position isn't even to punish migrants, it's to just make union membership mandatory.
>>

 No.332588

>>332261
there actually aren't even any implementations of some of the state-of-the-art algorithms, like Lee-Sidford. I even emailed Yin Tat Lee about it, and he admitted as much
in my own experiments lp_solve is fast enough until you start getting to around 10⁵ variables. the real problem as it stands now is gathering the necessary statistics to build the equations from. and of course, to get people to actually implement the results.

>>332387
so present an alternative instead of just complaining like a little lib
>>

 No.332744

File: 1624454841839.png ( 1.16 MB , 4817x3406 , PoliticalSystemGermany.png )

How could Cockshottist methods develop a new government structure? In what direction would government and governance be taken? How would a chart flow, in the tune of pic related?

I understand that Cockshott is primarily concerned with economics, but with a cybernetic GOSPLAN-esque ministry in charge of the economy, how would the rest of our government operate?
>>

 No.332759

File: 1624455730311.pdf ( 57.5 KB , 67x118 , Zachariah_OnDemocracy.pdf )

>>332744
cockshott's plans for the political structure don't seem very well developed, no. he tends to point to Dave Zachariah, pdf related. DZ probably has a longer text somewhere
>a cybernetic GOSPLAN-esque ministry in charge of the economy
I don't think a central org like GOSPLAN is the plan (heh). demand is measured by a pseudo-market, constraints on the economy (green house gas emissions etc) would need to come from the political process. what will be necessary is data scientists at each firm, and sysadmins to keep the planning cluster up and running. a lot of what GOSPLAN did would be automated
>>

 No.333460

>>332588
What statistics are needed? Is it just more diaggregation, down to the SKU level?
>>

 No.333807

>>333460
>Is it just more diaggregation, down to the SKU level?
yes, as fine-grained as possible. not sure what SKU means
the more accurate stats that we can gather the better we can plan things. the stats are what make up the "technical coefficients" to use leontief's terminology
>>

 No.336979

>>333460
Of course. Actually, for some things you go deeper than that and make distinct identifiers of seemingly identical objects, so you can easily identify those from the same batch if there was a problem in production. What are these "some things"? Things that are very expensive, things where production failures cluster closely to each other, things where failures have unusually big negative consequences.
>>333807
Stock Keeping Unit. Each distinguishable object in the warehouse gets its own barcode.
>>

 No.337031

>>336979
>Stock Keeping Unit. Each distinguishable object in the warehouse gets its own barcode.
ah, thanks for clearing that up. I've actually been sketching a database schema for this stuff, including warehousing
what I'm discovering is that it's very difficult to do all this a priori. it really needs to be an ongoing project as more and more workplaces get added to the system
>>

 No.337096

>>

 No.337105

>>337096
>In collaboracion with [obscure ass name never heard before]

>I try to click on the link in the description of the video


<Tor alerts me of a security threat on that website


What did Dickblast mean by this?
>>

 No.337107

>>337105
I think he doesn't like italians
>>

 No.337114

>>337107
Based if confirmed tbh
>>

 No.337119

>>337114
Serious question: Pizza or Pasta? Not including risotto since it objectively sucks(yeah I said it)
>>

 No.337125

>>337031
>what I'm discovering is that it's very difficult to do all this a priori. it really needs to be an ongoing project as more and more workplaces get added to the system
no shit thats literally how all modern software is normally developed, incrementally, not just some guy imagining requirements out of nowhere
>>

 No.337220

>>337125
yeah which is why what I'm doing right now is just sketching. it's mostly to help myself think
this does give me an idea: eXtreme Communism. compare: eXtreme Programming
>>

 No.337246

>>337096
>Abolition of internet censorship except of pornography
this is a rather peculiar point. why only porn? what kinds of porn?
there is also an item missing relating to the suppression of reactionary speech, since it is always actionable
>>

 No.337261

>>337246
Paul wants people to have sex and not them watching porn. Paul is watching out for the youth
>>

 No.337369

File: 1624631946753.jpg ( 291.7 KB , 1080x970 , Screenshot_20210625-163655….jpg )

This negro is really obsessed with cockshott. I see him under nearly every video in the comment sectiom
>>

 No.337409

>>337369
rent free
>>

 No.337415

>>337409
Cockshott truly lives rent free in this guys head
>>

 No.337438

>>337369
This is you’re brain on vaushism
>>

 No.337528

>>337261
sorry but if I can't coom then I have no choice but to become reactionary. brb manufacturing some controversy to get cockshott cancelled

>>337369
>running the entire economy as a co-op
>income
who would this co-op sell to? does this uyghur know that every company is a planned economy internally? fucking pseuds I tell you hwhat
>>

 No.337719

>>337528
I have a hunch that this guy is the batshit insane leftcom who thinks rome was capitalist. I remember first noticing this guy when he made the same argument in the comment section
>>

 No.338110

>>337369
Is Cockshott getting more recognition? Because I see alot of retards in the comment section there. And we know of course that with wider recognition comes more garbage
>>

 No.338445

>>338110
cockshott's channel has been gaining followers steadily, and paul himself has said he's seen way more interest in his ideas in recent years. so it's only natural that we also see more garbage, and we should expect even more garbage
>>

 No.338696

>>337119
Too different things anon.
Impossible to compare.
>>

 No.338698

>>337105
UPDATE:
>Found the org Dickblast have his program to in the latest video
<They're Spanish Hoxhaist
>>

 No.338788

>>338698
Dude what's the name of the Party lol
>>

 No.340208

>>337031
There's already free software that tracks inventory. Maybe this will help your project.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ERP_software_packages#Free_and_open-source_ERP_software
>>

 No.340290

>>337369
He's not wrong
>>

 No.340292

>>340208
thanks for the tip anon
>>

 No.340315

>>340290
he is wrong
>>

 No.343122

File: 1624836935755.png ( 202.45 KB , 1312x726 , ftbgnh.png )

um… based?
>>

 No.343220

>>343122
uh… Stalin was right.
>>

 No.343880

>>343122
Based and well-read.
>>343220
Oppose dogmatism.
>>

 No.344202

>>343122
I do not see the need for an historical excursion into the 20th century to decide Marxism's relationship to dialectics when Marx was unequivocal in his writings that his method was a dialectical one. Cockshott quotes the following passage as evidence of Marx's rejection of Hegel:
>Far from examining its general philosophic premises, the whole body of its inquiries has actually sprung from the soil of a definite philosophical system, that of Hegel. Not only in their answers but in their very questions there was a mystification. This dependence on Hegel is the reason why not one of these modern critics has even attempted a comprehensive criticism of the Hegelian system, however much each professes to have advanced beyond Hegel.
Marx was not writing this to repudiate dialectics, but to criticize the failure of the Young Hegelians to strip dialectics of its mysticism. In fact Marx regarded this as the main innovation of his method; he says as much in a letter to Kugelmann:
>He knows very well that my method of development is not Hegelian, since I am a materialist and Hegel is an idealist. Hegel's dialectic is the basic form of all dialectic, but only after it has been stripped of its mystical form, and it is precisely this which distinguishes my method.
If Cockshott is interpreting Marx's rejection of Hegel as a rejection of dialectical methodology then he is in error. This is not a difficult determination to make even if it were not the case that Marx's own words settle the matter.
>>

 No.348169

Cockshott just posted two original Vasily Glushkov (OGAS father) manuscripts for everyone to read.

https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2021/06/29/two-documents-by-glushkov/

They seem to be a precious addition to a cybersoc theory library.
>>

 No.348188

>>343122
Thats an idiotic take
Friedrich Engels is clearly using DiaMat in several of his books in Diakectic of nature he is citing hegel atleast 3 dozen timmes
>>

 No.348247

File: 1625080216090-1.pdf ( 53.56 KB , 67x118 , On system optimization.pdf )

>>348169
uploaded here so people don't have to deal with onedrive shit
>>

 No.348309

>>348247
based thanks anon
>>

 No.349237

File: 1625126286399.pdf ( 63.1 KB , 67x118 , Glushkov DISPLAN.pdf )

>>348247
here's another
>>

 No.349268

>>349237
cheers anon
>>

 No.349495

>>348247
>>349237
these three read like Glushkov being low-key annoyed at Gosplan being set in its ways and its subordinates not providing him with accurate constraints
>>

 No.350466

>>274759
I believe decentralizing the algorithm solves this issue.
>>

 No.350599

>>349495
Gosplan developed its own ASPR (automated system of plan calculations) system, tho first part of it was completed when USSR was already in perestroika mode. It automated some routine operations and had some optimization on aggregate level, modeling etc. more static approach than advocated by glushkov.
Tho it seems nobody understood the importance of network systems as much as glushkov, without a network its like a brain without a body.

>Gosplan being set in its ways

yea some of these guys sound really retarded, asking stupid questions "how a network would make a difference?"
like wft
>>

 No.352172

File: 1625254342435.png ( 94.87 KB , 807x348 , ClipboardImage.png )

>>

 No.352178

>>352172
Cockshott already made a written response to this who cares
>>

 No.352191

Can Cockshott even be considered a communist if he rejects Marx? Whenever I read something by him it sounds like he is just a neo-ricardian socdem who has no idea what hes doing. What exactly is different about his ideas and silicon valley retards like Musk?
>>

 No.352192

>>352178
Its relevant because he is still wrong.
>>

 No.352256

>>352172
This guy seems to have a hateboner for Cockshott. Is there some history to that?
>>

 No.352263

>>352191
He doesn't fucking reject Marx, are you crazy?
>>

 No.352266

>>352191
>Can Cockshott even be considered a communist if he rejects Marx? Whenever I read something by him it sounds like he is just a neo-ricardian socdem who has no idea what hes doing. What exactly is different about his ideas and silicon valley retards like Musk?
Cockshott disagrees with some Marxists about equalization of the profit rate, he doesn't actually disagree with Marx.

>>352256
>This guy seems to have a hateboner for Cockshott. Is there some history to that?
Yeah it's kinda sad and pathetic.
>>

 No.352276

Is there a French translation of TANS?
>>

 No.352278

>>352172
Wait a sec? Is this one of Kliman's disciples? No wonder he is such a fucking butthurt bitch about Cockshott
>>

 No.352296

>>352263
He completely disagrees with Marx on a fundamental level. He ignores all his contributions in favor of Ricardo.
>>

 No.352297

>>352256
Which guy?
>>

 No.352300

>>352296
Can you be more specific?
>>

 No.352343

>>

 No.352369

>>352300
No I wont. You can read Marx. If you want to quibble over definitions and argue about semantics do it with yourself.
>>

 No.352396

>>352369
Okay then thanks for invalidating your previous statement to any of the dozens, or hundreds, of anons that will read this dialogue following this.
>>

 No.352407

>>352256
yeah, he had a few interviews by Cockshott on his show a few years ago on economic planning. At the same time he started getting into Klimanist economics. When Cockshott put his video series out refuting Kliman he lost it and made like 12 comments in the comments section. And now he hates Cockshott on everything but economic planning due to being a Kliman fanboy
>>

 No.352409

>>352396
If you want to talk about why Cockshott is wrong there are three threads up about it right now that explain in detail. I'm not playing gotcha games with definition mongers that aren't interested in learning.
>>

 No.352417

>>344202
Marx hated Hegel. When he discovered Hegel, his first urge was to debunk him.
>>

 No.352434

>>352417
Missing the point deliberately or are you incapable of reading?
>>

 No.352469

>>352407

Why does Cockshott disagree with every contemporary Marxist on LTV, and not just Kliman? It seems like an easy dodge to pretend like that crackpot is the only one who disagrees with him, but Cockshott himself goes out of his way to say everyone else is wrong. How can it be that every other scholar of Marx got him wrong but Cockshott somehow has the secret sauce?
>>

 No.352483

>>350599
>ASPR (automated system of plan calculations) system
It's really a state wide, generalized Enterprise Resource Planning Software aka ERPs.
ASPR/GERPs
>>352417
ok glowtard. You had your chance at the limelight. Go back to chewing on depleted uranium rods.
>>

 No.352485

>>352469
Who even disagrees with him? Like name some guys?
>>

 No.352491

>>352469
Michael Roberts and Anwar Shaikh seems to be in agreement LTV-wise with Cockshott and vice versa.
Who is "every contemporary Marxist" for you? I fear that you use that term like the USA uses "international community".
>>

 No.352494

>>352491
Literally WHO? oh, his own students, yeah thanks.
>>

 No.352504

File: 1625263459330.gif ( 2.98 MB , 520x293 , 1618000542515.gif )

>>352494
>He thinkd Shaikh and Roberts are Cockshotts students
What a pathetic attempt at smearing the man. You are desperate now, aren't you
>>

 No.352508



Mathematics is bullshit, I admit math has real world applications, but beyond that it's just made up bs. Numbers don't exist in some higher platonic plane and as far as all the little rules go you might as well study Lord of the Rings lore or whatever other made up system with experienced internal consistency brings you joy

Logic is literally the highest tier of obscurantist bullshit. – (P1 Λ P2 Λ … Λ Pn)  Q, like who the fuck talks like that? P(A ∩ B) = P(B)P(A|B). Explain that to me in one sentence or you dont understand it.

>oh you have to go to muh school for 30 years first

Yeah if you can't explain it to a 5 year old in under 60 seconds its not real. You STEMlords always like to circle jerk about your little numbers. No one cares about this shit. Its not even real.
>>

 No.352515

>>352508
My dead nan can write better shitposts like these
>>

 No.352517

File: 1625264068163.jpg ( 133.45 KB , 900x1350 , 71RET9Ww4oL.jpg )

Still larping that computer communism? Maybe fix your shitty ideology first before trying to get it work with scifi technology.
>>

 No.352519

File: 1625264107433.png ( 204.61 KB , 440x250 , ClipboardImage.png )

>um yes hello i'm from the communist party have you heard about the economic calculation problem
>no if you would just listen i could show you the math that proves communism is the best
>no, please don't call the cops I wasn't suggesting that… okay have a nice day
>>

 No.352528

>>352519
Calculation problem is only a tiny fraction of the critique against planned economy.
>>

 No.352531

Wtf is this glowop on my cybersoc thread?
GTFO!!
>>

 No.352539

>>352531
>muh cybersoc larping thread!
>CIA plz go!
>>

 No.352544

>>352517

Large scale planning technology already exists and companies with revenue as big as entire state's public budgets are successfully employing them. There is nothing utopian or sci-fi about them.
>>

 No.352551

>>352528
lmao okay Alfred
>>

 No.352588

Maths is just esoteric numerology, its fetish logic like astrology. They just assume correlation equals causation,
>>

 No.352597

File: 1625267185045.pdf ( 22.52 MB , 212x300 , Plant_Sadie_Zeros_and_Ones….pdf )

I think you can probably skip Cockshott if you are really interested in just communism. Hes not really that important unless you think you are going to be a middle manager bureaucrat after the revolution. His interpretations of Marx are really heterodox and he kind of muddies the water so I would definitely suggest reading Lenin first.

If you are interested in cyber communism you should stay away from Cockshott completely and check out Sadie Plant or (early)Nick Land instead.
>>

 No.352612

>>352597
Cockshott's cybercommunism and landian cyberaccelerationism are totally different. Cockshott's is based on mechanical materialism and mathematics not postmodern shittery faux-cyberpunk shit.
>>

 No.352642

>>352612
Theyre really not and you would know that if you opened a book. Nick Land's critique provides exactly what Cockshott is missing. They would compliment each other well if Cockshott was capable of engaging. If he actually understood what cybernetics is instead of a mechanistic list of things it does he wouldn't be so limiting.
>>

 No.352670

>>352642
Would you say his mechanistic equilibrium of profit rates is Cockshott's Achilles heel?
>>

 No.352688

>>352642
>Theyre really not and you would know that if you opened a book
I'll take your word for it but Cybernetics is a mathematical theory which influenced things like control systems in Engineering, in fact the original cyberneticists were mathematicians like Norbert Wiener. I doubt Land has the quantitative competency to engage with it in a non pseudy/handwavy way.
>>

 No.352690

File: 1625270795135.png ( 110.46 KB , 657x539 , e3e00ed315c83f55e2079fcc31….png )

>>352588
>Maths is just esoteric numerology, its fetish logic like astrology. They just assume correlation equals causation,
>>

 No.352694

>>352670
I'd say his biggest problem is denying subjectivity, which leads to idealism. He looks out at the world and sees objects and names them X Y Z and thinks that X Y Z are real. This is somewhat fine if X is something concrete like an apple, but falls apart when it is something abstract like poverty or value. Instead of acknowledging this subjectivity he attempts to bypass it with empiricism, which is just confirmation with more subjects while denying that their perspective is also subjective. What this results in is an anthropomorphization of the data, in the quest to go against idealist humanism you end up essentializing and reinforce its very core tenets.
>>

 No.352705

>>352469
>How can it be that every other scholar of Marx got him wrong but Cockshott somehow has the secret sauce?
This isn't really unique to cockshott btw every since Marxist out there has their own reading, ask 7 different Marxists and youll get 7 different answers, ever read that critique of crisis theory sam williams guy with his weird gold-based interpretation of Marx? or people like Lain/Varn? Not to mention liked 100000 twitter pseuds at least Cockshott can back it up with quotes from Marx and reasoning
>>

 No.352707

>>352469
>>352172
>>352191
>>352296
I feel like this is Tom O'Brien samefagging in this thread, I know he's lurked and maybe posted on leftypol before
>>

 No.352726

>>352670 (me)
>>352694
Cockshott doesn't assume a mechanistic equilibrium of profit rates. I was just making up something 180° degrees from his actual position to check whether you would spot that :^) You didn't.

>>352707
Doesn't really sound like him IMHO.
>>

 No.352741

>>352726
I didn't say anything in my post about equilibrium profit rates because I'm not interested in playing your games. You are obviously trying not to learn.
>>

 No.352750

>>352741
>I'm not interested in playing your games
So you now claim that you knew the question to be nonsense and then clicked to reply earnestly to it (insofar as your pseudo-intellectual posturing can be called that)?
>>

 No.352794

>>352750
I think its pretty obvious you were trying to definition monger because you don't like my reading suggestion and wanted to derail, so I gave an example of how the philosophy is applicable instead. Unfortunately for you this isn't Ready Player One so naming all of Paul's hit albums doesn't make you right. Cockshott has serious problems with subjectivity and he falls into one of the most common idealist traps. Most likely a curious reader will notice your anti-intellectualism and will end up looking into it. Anyone interested can find a wealth of resources on it because the subject-object dichotomy is one the oldest and most discussed topics in philosophy.
>>

 No.352921

>>352588
??? Math is all about proofs and shit there's little empirical about math lmao
>>

 No.353357

>>352794
What is pretty obvious is that you fell into a trap here >>352670 and got outed as a pseud in >>352726 There is no recovery from that for you because people here have a longer attention span than on Twitter.
>>

 No.353556

File: 1625319607218.jpeg ( 28.75 KB , 384x461 , 1624475595495.jpeg )

>>352794
Land is a pseud and so are you. I don't need to read some pomo cyberpunk bullshit to know that. Why don't you go read a math/cs book so you can actually understand Cockshott instead of making vague accusations and handwaving, ignorant midwit who doesn't fucking understand science or math. We're rebasing Marxism on hard mechanical materialism AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT eat a dick kid.
>>

 No.353573

>>352588
t. mathlet
>>

 No.353589

>>352694
you sound like a retard. You're critiquing basic analysis skills. Transforming a problem into an equation is the basis for being able to use math to help you.
>>

 No.353991

File: 1625341322999-0.pdf ( 298.75 KB , 232x300 , ambedcar.pdf )

File: 1625341322999-1.pdf ( 192.96 KB , 67x118 , ambedcararticle.pdf )

whats everyone think of Cockshott's take on Ambedkar?
>>

 No.354002

Wow. Nice cult you guys got here.
>>

 No.354009

File: 1625341962204.png ( 12.25 KB , 427x400 , 1614278359290.png )

>>354002
>Wow. Nice cult you guys got here
>>

 No.354062

File: 1625343453455.png ( 65.04 KB , 959x366 , ClipboardImage.png )

Sad! So Sad. Its very unfortunate.
>>

 No.354071

>>354062
wolff == academylet confirmed

speaking of academia, I was looking for papers by Dave Zachariah on google scholar, and one of the results points to bunkerchan.net. we're academically relevant!
>>

 No.354311

>>354062
but how many of Cockshott's citations are about politics or economics versus computer science?
>>

 No.354328

LATEST HAKIM VIDEO, 100% COCKSHOTT-PILLED

https://youtu.be/ME1hVozRIcA
>>

 No.354489

>>354328
this guy's accent is so annoying x_x
>>

 No.354494

Why is Cockshott a degrowther?
>>

 No.354495

>>354489
He has a very accurate accent, I cannot tell he's not a native English speaker.
>>

 No.354497

>>354328
How did you quantify that percentage?
>>

 No.354498

>>354489
It's fine.
>>

 No.354510

>>354489
>hakim
>accent
wut

>>354494
no. cockshott has advocated for air-cooled nuclear reactors as one way to deal with the energy situation. he's recently talked about "nuclear steel", meaning direct reduction of iron oxide by hydrogen generated by water electrolysis powered by nukular power
>>

 No.357406

>>354311
im not surprised Harvey has so many citations, the man nearly invented Marxist Geography
>>

 No.358749

>>354495
>>354510
found the non english natives. he very distinctly has an arab accent. an accent of an arab that tried very hard not to have an accent but ultimately failed.
>>

 No.358753

How advanced does your math need to be to understand this stuff? I took trigonometry in high school and did okay but don't remember anything, never took pre-calculus or calculus
>>

 No.358935

>>358753
Maybe some basic understanding of linear algebra and calculus
>>

 No.358942

>>357406
>marxist geography
hmm?
>>

 No.362309

File: 1625693146238.mp4 ( 4.47 MB , 490x360 , VID_20210707_121711_285.mp4 )

Another one of these cybersoc videos
>>

 No.362689

>>362309
based agitprop
>>

 No.362855

>>

 No.362859

>>354328
doesnt this guy believe in neo imperialism or whatever?
>>

 No.364060

File: 1625752533016.pdf ( 2.13 MB , 221x300 , worlrevipoliecon.11.3.0388.pdf )

>CLASSICAL LABOR VALUES
>Properties of Economic Reproduction
>David Zachariah and Paul Cockshott
Has anyone in here read this one? Going through it at the moment. Published in fall of last year.
One of the things they do is point out that value can be derived from first principles, using the eigenvector corresponding to the largest eigenvalue of a matrix R describing the consumption of the workforce necessary to produce the vector of net goods n. It then follows that the vector of surplus products is n - Rn.
>>

 No.364862

File: 1625780527375.jpg ( 217.62 KB , 1080x1261 , E5w5y0_WUAI1Z95.jpg )

                            
>>

 No.366290

Just checking any real world application of Cockshott models yet or are we still in la la land
>>

 No.366449

>>366290
We will be in "la la land" until cockshottists get political power there are already models that apply his work but non of that matter without political power.
>>

 No.366627

>>366290
pretty much what >>366449 said. I have a theory that we can build cybersoc bottom-up, but that's probably wishful thinking
best bets right now is likely the DPRK or Bolivia, unless the CPC stops with the revisionism
>>

 No.366690

>>366627
Imo I'd add Nepal and Philippines strongly and put 'Latin America' and 'India' more broadly in a '?' category for 'attentive analysis', because they are definitely major areas of potential vs the remaining, unnamed places of the planet.
>>

 No.367449

>>366690
I guess we can summarize this as: wherever socialists happen to come into power
the massive strike in India makes me hopeful. seems plugging cybersoc to naxalites would be worthwhile. any india anons in here?
>>

 No.367454

File: 1625896013709.mp4 ( 20.12 MB , 1280x720 , cyberneticaesthetics3.mp4 )

>>362309
I made that one! Here is my more recent video in 720p.
>>

 No.367459

File: 1625896543470.png ( 28.54 KB , 635x580 , india_cast_system.png )

>>367449
You have to adapt cybersoc to Indian conditions, they still have the cast system going, and you need to add a few additional steps to Cockshott's program to smash the remnants of the cast system.
>>

 No.367616

File: 1625906587973.png ( 203.12 KB , 1080x1080 , deeptweets_2019_06_25_mean….png )

                       
>>

 No.367626

>>366290
the same mathematical apparatus that cockshott uses is already used by large internationals to plan and optimize internal production, only their objective function is profits maximization

>>366627
>>366690
>>367449
>>367459
funny how you technocracy wannabes always completely ignore the politics aspect and democracy as an economic mechanism, and threat socialist project like a purely technical problem even tho cockman seems to understand the importance of politics
fucking stem idealists ruining everything as always
>>

 No.367890

>>367626
hush normie

>>367459
I trust indian comrades, who have way more insight into this than I ever could, have plenty of ideas how to deal with it
>>

 No.368135

>>367890
>I trust indian comrades, who have way more insight into this than I ever could, have plenty of ideas how to deal with it
Yes, we could call it cockshottian cybernetic socialism that has the indian patch applied to it.
>>

 No.368152

>>367890
>how to deal with it
Unironically cultural revolution is the only way to deal with it.
>>

 No.368886

>>326525
>>327152
Came ITT just to post about this too. The dude seems retarded when it comes to imperialism. Arguably an isolationist rightoid leader might be even more useful than an imperialist "democratic socialist".
>>

 No.368897

>>368886
Also why does this thread attract so much seethe?
>>

 No.368941

>>368897
Hell if I know. These threads used to be chill, then an influx in anti-Cockshott posting started a few months ago.
>>

 No.369002

>>368941
It's at least partially Infracells.
>>

 No.369026

>>369002
I blame too many newfags and other people who weren't around for the 2017-2018 cybernetics wars
>>

 No.369208

File: 1625990103941.jpg ( 45.11 KB , 640x480 , converted2.jpg )

>>368135
or, dare I say, socialism with indian characteristics?

>>368152
probably

>>368941
might have to do with paul's channel reaching 10k subs?

>>369026
>the 2017-2018 cybernetics wars
elaborate
>>

 No.370966

>>352469
Let's see who agrees with Cockshott:

Alan Cottrell (obvious), Dave Zachariah, Anwar Shaikh, Nihls Froehlich, Valle Baeza, Emmanuel Farjoun, Moshé Machover, Victor Yakovenko….


Let's see who enjoys your presence in this thread:

Nobody.
>>

 No.376825

File: 1626251144035.jpg ( 28.42 KB , 578x364 , Xn6Sg2b.jpg )

>>

 No.376847

>>376825
By that logic he should also have lost his finger and toe nails.
>>

 No.376854

>>376847
And he'd probably be a nice fresh pink after losing a layer of dead skin cells, dandruff, etc. Plus I wonder what would happen to other organic matter like bodily waste, any dead bacteria that happen to be chilling in the gut microbiome, the bits of detached retina that peel off and turn into "eye floaters", earwax in the ear canal, oh man Neil "Smoke" deGrasse really comes up with some great hypotheticals
>>

 No.376862

File: 1626254317978.png ( 149.26 KB , 500x808 , neil degrasse tyson new ye….png )

>>

 No.377050

>>376862
Is there any date that has astronomical significance every ~365.25 days?
>>

 No.377271

>>377050
earth perigee/apogee?
>>

 No.377664

>>376865
bâséd
>>

 No.387260

i was banned from /g/ for shilling dickblast
>>

 No.387396

>>

 No.388586

>>388572
what even is this word salad
>>

 No.388589

>>388586
A GPT-3 post
>>

 No.388591

>>388572
shut the fuck up nick land-bot
>>

 No.389147

>>388586
2 cyb3r 4 u
>>

 No.391984

>>

 No.392062

File: 1626877245552.jpg ( 37.53 KB , 640x480 , rundosrun.jpg )

yo what's up gamers, can anyone tell me anything about the "china DOS union"? is it actually an official union or is just a couple of memers having fun?
>>

 No.392758

look how this funny fed tries to debunk cockshott
>>

 No.392799

>>

 No.392803

>>392758
knockoff Hakim but anglo
>>

 No.392896

>>392758
>New American "Left"
>thinks calculation in kind == soviet-style material balance planning
>planners exist
>planners are a class
>planners are bourgeois
>planners want environmental collapse
come on CIA at least put some effort into your trolls. also who are this "we" that the video refers to?
>>

 No.392910

File: 1626906390721.mp4 ( 34.4 MB , 1920x1080 , lol.mp4 )

>>

 No.392916

>>392910
what's with the fucking stick?
>>

 No.392936

>>392896
Could you give a proper breakdown on why he isn’t worn get
>>

 No.392941

>>392936
you mean "why he isn't wrong"? which "he"?
>>

 No.392944

>>392941
I mean why new American left isn’t wrong
>>

 No.392961

>>392944
>why new American left isn’t wrong
be he's wrong
>>

 No.392964

bump
>>

 No.393649

>>388572
lmao did you cyber autists really report this
>>

 No.393652

>>392758
did anyone save it?
>>

 No.412775

>>231854
You've never done any linear programming modeling in your life if you think it can solve a universal economic allocation problem

Unique IPs: 230

[Return][Catalog][Top][Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / overboard / sfw / alt / cytube] [ leftypol / b / WRK / hobby / tech / edu / ga / ent / music / 777 / posad / i / a / lgbt / R9K / dead ] [ meta ]
ReturnCatalogTopBottomHome