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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1627566096889-0.jpg ( 26.61 KB , 602x426 , banned.jpg )

File: 1627566096889-1.jpg ( 93.08 KB , 700x400 , a.JPG )

 No.409074[Last 50 Posts]

What do you guys think about censorship? Particularly those done by seemingly "authoritarian" regimes like China and North Korea and to a lesser extent Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand, Cambodia, and Russia? Are they beneficial? Does that enhance a country's online security? Or is it something that bis more like taking the bluepill by the fact that you can't access to different viewpoints, instead just seeing the same "I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG" mentality by the government?
>>

 No.409077

shitthread
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 No.409080

Censorship is necessary and good.

The Chinese internet is far more free than the American .
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 No.409088

>>409080
How is it more free?
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 No.409091

The free exchange of ideas and debate are essential for a functioning democratic society and "leftists" who make excuses for censorship are quite simply fascists in red garb.
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 No.409092

>>409091
an inane position taken up by the kind of person who'll then tie themselves into knots to explain why flooding the site with advertising for penis pills and cheap shoes isn't really "speech", thus making it okay to censor.
>>

 No.409095

Low energy and garbage thread.

Liberal democracy is a lie and you can freeze peach as much as you want you will always be a slave of the bourgeois
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 No.409096

It's good, I like it.
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 No.409098

>>409080
>Censorship is good.
Cringe and rightwing.
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 No.409102

>>409091
>functioning democratic society
Liberal democracy is a dictatorship of the bourgeois. Your so-called democracy is a pointless ritual in which people vote for one of two parties funded by the bourgeois.
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 No.409103

imagine "taking a side" on the question of censorship as though such a thing were not complete liberalism. censorship is a tool. it can be used extensively or selectively. at times it may be hardly noticeable and at other times it may be unavoidable, such as during war.
even bourgeois democracies censor shit all the time, though at the same time they usually claim to uphold absolute "freedom of speech" as an abstracted natural right.
a communist party can't fall under the same immature pretenses. if a decision is made to censor something, it will be at least made transparently. and where censorship isn't needed, the people must be not only allowed but encouraged to engage in dissent and debate, which are necessary and valuable. But there is no position of "absolute" free speech nor of "absolute" censorship and perfect control, and neither corresponds to any really existing society in history.
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 No.409105

>>409102
Nice strawman little fascist, at no point in my short post did I ever say "liberal democracy is democracy and what we should strive towards".
>>

 No.409106

OP here.

Censorship is VERY GOOD because it could help a country tackle unfavorable ideas so that people can't just go around vomiting freezed peaches.

FREEZE PEACH IS A BREAD-AND-CIRCUSES PLOT EXERCISED BY THE RULING CLASS TO EXPLOIT YOU. In a society where freezed peaches are the main food, you'll be bombarded with right wing talking points, neoliberal propaganda, and fascist bullshit, as well as MSM stories that are just mere bourgeois fantasy.
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 No.409109

>>409103
No. I'm just asking this question because censorship is apparently good. I could also promote ethical censorship here.

CENSORSHIP IS EFFECTIVE AND BASED, F*** THE HUMAN RIGHTS CHARTER OF 1948
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 No.409110

Apologism for censorship stems from a non-material, idealistic analysis that says scary ideas are the reason capitalism could somehow overtake socialism once implemented. Rather than class contradictions and a material base of support.
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 No.409113

>>409103
>censorship is a tool
It's a tool all right. A tool for personal abuse by the censor. That's all censorship has ever truly been: a conduit for corruption by the people wielding the power to censor.
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 No.409120

>>409110
the base influences the superstructure and the superstructure also influences the base. the base is primary, but the superstructure is not totally passive. censorship is a tool of bourgeis dictatorship, so it can also be a tool of proletarian dictatorship.
>>409113
>A tool for personal abuse by the censor.
i'm sure you could argue that a gun is a tool for personal abuse by a soldier, or a car is a tool for personal abuse by a motorist, if you took the same kind of logical leap. this isn't an argument so much as a whinge.
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 No.409128

>>409120
The problem with censorship always comes down to the subjective interpretation of language and expression with objective consequences. That is why it's main function throughout history going all the way back to the Romans has been to empower the censor at the expense of others.
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 No.409137

>>409128
but a policy of censorship only emerges in the first place where the ruling class sees a need to exert their power. the censorship empowers the ruling class as a class, not the censor as an individual.
so if the ruling class is the proletariat, well?
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 No.409141

>you're the bourg
>no, you're the bourg
Tiresome

As for the censorship:
If it goes so far that you can't criticize the government or post objectively true statistics that go against the agenda, it serves to create doublethink and a dumb-but-distrustful society.
China certainly does censorship that way.
Russia has achieved the end effect (dumb-but-suspicious), though I don't know how far does their censorship reach.

Whether it's "good" or "bad" depends on interpretation, but it's a fragile state for sure.
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 No.409142

>>409137
>so if the ruling class is the proletariat, well?
The goal of socialism is to abolish the proletariat and bourgeoisie, not to keep the two classes around with one of them on a leash. A workers' democracy has no need for censorship.
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 No.409148

>>409142
>The goal of socialism is to abolish the proletariat and bourgeoisie
yes, the goal of socialism is communism. communism has never existed because socialism has never got so far in the first place. you can't snap your fingers and cause two antagonistic classes to stop existing. a proletarian dictatorship subjects the bourgeoisie to the worker's rule as is the only possible course of action until these classes have been eliminated at last.
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 No.409153

>>409148
>you can't snap your fingers and cause two antagonistic classes to stop existing
Comrade it is in fact as simple as democratizing production and distribution. Class is about power, it's not some inane concept of wealthy vs poor. Eliminate the power structure and you have abolished the classes.
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 No.409155

>>409153
could you give me a historical example to better illustrate? i am not conscious of such an example, whereby simply
>democratizing production and distribution
resulted in the elimination of class?
>>

 No.409159

Internet censorship is one thing, but Soviet censorship of the arts was fucking retarded.
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 No.409167

bump
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 No.409168

cringe but if it enforces unity and coherence in a proletarian state then whatever
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 No.409172

Ultra cringe, it stifles useful criticism. The internet is a superb tool for analyzing the mood of your average citizen. General censorship removes that information that is necessary for forming correct policies.

In any case, you should develop and adopt technologies that make it impossible for third parties to censor anyways. Stop using Discord, Messenger or other cuck messaging systems and start using matrix.
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 No.409177

>>409110
concern about censorship in the abstract draws from just as deep a pool of non-materialism. the "anti-censorship" fellow is always one who finds it terrifying to imagine that you might censor something with the blunt instrument of the law, or the thread deletion button, but sleeps comfortably in his bed as certain viewpoints are denied publication on economic grounds. (after all, how can it be censorship for a printing company to not let you print and distribute your views for free?)

anti-censorship types always imagine that the reason you might want to delete /pol/ nonsense is because you're afraid of the ideas converting people or the harm they might do, rather than simply because they're tedious shit and you've come to a qualitative judgement that they're ultimately little more than distributed spam.
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 No.409185

every country in the world censors the internet by this point, something the CCP has pointed out when facing criticism from the EU for its green wall. I don't really like what both the EU and the CCP are doing, but there's no denying they both engage in censorship

>>409091
>reactionaries should be allowed to spout their garbage propaganda without consequence
lib
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 No.409189

Censorship of foreign propaganda and provocations: necessary.

Censorship of your own population: leads to politburo living in a bubble, ignorant of problems. If you have your own people expressing anti-communist views then that's a symptom of a legitimate problem that has nothing to do with the explicit ideology expressed by those people. That is, the actual problem is likely too little communism.
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 No.409192

>>409088
Less controlled by private companies. Open internet is easily manipulated by large state actors (e.g us and Israeli massive bot nets and troll farms). As well as silicon valley(aka CIA) control of algorithms.
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 No.409193

>>409190
Then they adopt Carl Schmitt's "state of exception" logic and suspend their own ideals in order to save them lol
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 No.409195

Censorship is cancer. Tankies can suck my schlong, there would be netsukuku network in socialism, cus bureaucrats controlling information is a death threat to socialism.
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 No.409197

>>409091
>democratic society
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 No.409199

>>409193
Heheh

>>409195
>Censorship is cancer. Tankies can suck my schlong

You want far right media and neoliberal propaganda to intrude into your mind without you knowing?
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 No.409201

>>409195
okay, good for you and your strong principles. now, you have a slight problem. your country is having a hard time getting medical supplies to fight off a pandemic, on account of your country being blockaded by the united states. it results in some protests, and propaganda starts coming in from the states that claims the whole of your country is erupting in anti-government riots against your commie tyranny.
so, er, what do you do about that?
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 No.409203

The idea of no censorship for a socialist state is fucking retarded. US/big capitalists will just flood all your shit with anti-gov talking points to fake popular resentment for the goverment. People are highly influenced/controlled by herd bias from comments sections and suggestions from algorithms. Thus as long as large holders of private wealth exist a totally open internet is retared
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 No.409206

>>409199
>You want far right media and neoliberal propaganda to intrude into your mind without you knowing?
No I dont want some tiny strata to usurp control of information. If that means that neolibs could express their shit views then so be it.
The biggest threat to socialism is from within, from the left, from vanguardists, from bureaucrats and labor aristocracy and experts.
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 No.409207

The only people who should be censored is the government
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 No.409210

>>409201
>so, er, what do you do about that?
I reform my political system in the direction of direct democracy, so that folks dont feel as alienated from their state, so they actually fight for it. Obviously with your party dictatorship nobody would fight for privileges of party elite.
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 No.409211

>>409206
Literal retardantion. Without cencorship a small Strata will take over. You can’t just say “no one take control” and expect things to stay without minority control.

Especially as long as capitalists and capitalist nations still exist.

Pure idealism
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 No.409212

>>409210
the example i was referring to is cuba and if you saw that thread recently then you know the cuban people are generally not as anti-government as the propaganda makes them out to be. the fact that some protests occurred does not necessarily indicate tyranny. "direct democratic" reforms would therefore not necessarily prevent protests.
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 No.409213

>>409168
The problem is, even if it does, you don't know it, because objective statistics are censored.
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 No.409214

>>409206
>dont want some tiny strata
<censorship is cancer
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 No.409215

>>409213
slippery slope fallacy. if we censor x then we must also censor y and z and everything else
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 No.409221

>>409211
>Literal retardantion
Tankie retardation. Your place is in the dustbin of history.

>Without cencorship a small Strata will take over.

Without censorship it may take over, tho Im very sceptical. Censorship plays a big role to a tiny minority in controlling majority. Not the other way around.
But with censorship it surely takes over.

>You can’t just say “no one take control” and expect things to stay without minority control.

What do you mean no one, Im for the control by the folks, that why we need distributed reliant information systems.
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 No.409222

>>409221
>tiny minority
If it’s the State, and if it’s especially a Communist one, it may actually be beneficial. They can protect people from falsehoods and foreign BS like Faux News, Fake News CNN, and New Porky Times.
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 No.409223

>>409212
>"direct democratic" reforms would therefore not necessarily prevent protests.
It would strengten the state. Party dictatorship proved to be a fertile ground for anti-socialist agitation.
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 No.409224

>>409223
>anti-socialist agitation is a direct response to party dictatorship.
Again. I stress again that censorship is beneficial. They may be fanned by neoliberal and/or right-wing propaganda.
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 No.409226

>>409222
>If it’s the State, and if it’s especially a Communist one, it may actually be beneficial.
Sorry, tankie. I'm of the opinion that socialist, nevermind communist, State requires direct democracy by its very definition.
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 No.409228

>>409224
>They may be fanned by neoliberal and/or right-wing propaganda.
This propaganda is effective because proles are alienated from their state. You need to deal with the cause here, not the symptomphs
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 No.409231

Let the fash talk, we don't censor their words and they don't censor our bullets, it even makes it easier to find them.
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 No.409258

I say that there are real arguments for and against censorship, I'm working (or supposed to be….) So I will make this brief, probably expand this later

>For

The fact that the US or the EU can fake sentiment on social media to start a digital coup is a very real threat and one that should be taken seriously by all socialist states and all states that against US imperialism, the Cuba protests were started on social media by hijacking a hashtag that was originally made to help and donations to a province (#SOSCUBA) and the literal CIA glowies and American PR companies hired by the USG used that same hashtag to ignite the protests.

This was very documented because CIA was very retarded and obvious, more info on the OP of the Cuba thread.

>Against

Most censorship is retarded because it only alienates your userbase and motivates people to try to circumvent it just to piss you off, it gives credibility to your enemy because he can now say how you're a horrible dystopian dictatorship because you prevent people from accessing TikTok twerking videos.

Also we have to say that pretty much every government makes use of censorship, the US and the EU are just way more subtle about it than let's say China, (the US is not that subtle anymore, remember that they censored and deplatformed their own president along with thousands of Trump supporters)

A good middle point would be a system that actively fights against Fake News and posts that incite a popular revolt and let everything else alone.
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 No.409259

censorship of pornography is pretty based
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 No.409262

>>409258
> and all states that are against US imperialism, *
>a hashtag that was originally made to request help and donations for a province *

I hate phone posting.
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 No.409263

File: 1627577179835.jpeg ( 190.5 KB , 802x768 , gustave le bon.jpeg )

>>409203
100% this. Read "The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind" by Gustave Le Bon. The book was a tremendous influence on Lenin and reveals the nature of human groups.

Another book worth reading is "Crystallizing Public Opinion" by Edward Bernays. Jacque Ellul wrote a book on Propaganda, but I haven't read it yet so I can't comment.
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 No.409264

>>409222

In that scenario, who would protect the people from falsehoods peddled by the state?
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 No.409269

>>409264
The State would never perpetrate any falsehoods if it were leftist.
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 No.409272

File: 1627577475482.jpeg ( 115.53 KB , 1415x827 , controlled opposition vla….jpeg )

>>409258
Have 90% of the media be controlled by the Socialists, yet have a few media outlets to function as controlled opposition. For example, the socialists might operate 90% of the press (with various brands and names, of course) and then have 10% be Social-Democratic or reformists. Those that have grievances against the system would end up adhering to the ideology created by the controlled opposition and the threat would be neutralized. The only danger would be if the controlled opposition stopped being controlled and started to pose a threat to socialism.
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 No.409276

File: 1627577813606.jpeg ( 37.62 KB , 325x327 , US ARMY PSYOP.jpeg )

>>409228
>This propaganda is effective because proles are alienated from their state. You need to deal with the cause here, not the symptomphs
The propaganda is effective because Porky has entire battalions dedicated to strategically changing the opinion of the populace to maintain and spread capitalism. There are scientists that work full time studying how to make people buy products and ideology. Corporate media is borderline mind control and has no place in a socialist society. There should be some degree of free speech, but not enough to allow blatant subversion.
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 No.409285

I dont really see a point in censorhsip unless its very specific
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 No.409290

>>409276
Yep. Check out Earnest Voice.
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 No.409291

File: 1627578380696.jpg ( 65.71 KB , 850x400 , quote-the-specific-politic….jpg )

>>409074
it's good when I like it and it's bad when I hate it. it's really that simple.
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 No.409293

>>409291
based schmittposter
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 No.409295

In war time censorship is justified because the situation is chaotic and official channels to address concerns cannot operate efficiently. Rumors and propaganda can easily spread like wildfire. But in peace time people should be guaranteed the right to express their political views AND have their views heard. (Pornography is not a political view and thus can be censored) The risk of the proletarian state being alienated from the working class is a real one. If people can be swayed by CIA propaganda then you are doing something wrong.

Reminder
>anarchism without any state apparatus is bound to fail.
<soviet-style overbearing authoritarianism can fall prey to revisionism and losing touch with the working masses.
21st century socialist should strive for a middle ground.
>>

 No.409299

>>409074
this is about the power to shape information:

At the moment the capitalist class, who are just a tiny fraction of society controls most of the information ways.
They control mental production of society and all ideas that can be broadcast to large amounts of people, are modified to reflect the interests of the capitalists who own the huge media empires. But It's not just about who owns the media production and distribution, there is also censorship by the name of "intellectual property" .
Non of this is even remotely compatible with the free flow of ideas. Pay attention of the ideological trick to reduce freedom of expression to absence of state censorship, if all the information paths are owned by huge corporations that enforce draconian rules as user agreements than the state doesn't have to do any censorship while you still don't get to freely express your ideas.

We have to say that in a socialist society media production and mental production has to reflect the material interests of the proletariat to get the kind of funding and professional production that it can reach masses of people. So we would invert the economic marginalization of ideas that exists in capitalism, but we don't need to outright censor anything. even if we would be justified in doing so, because the capitalist media does censor socialist ideas.

There is another aspect to this, capitalism uses information warfare to bypass your intelligence, like with endless repetition of advertisements, that burrows information into your head against your will. Or more sophisticated ways of pushing your psychological buttons. AstroTurfing campaigns with click-farms or bot-farms, that basically do man in the middle attacks of the debates that happen in society. Or anything where you treat humans as meat that has it's behavior and mental faculties manipulated by a series of audio visual stimulations. I don't see how any of this can be reconciled with the concept of freedom for expression for ideas, because ideas don't matter anymore if you can hack the brains of other people.

There is much more nuance that can be had here:
Like who can set the reference frame of discourse and ideological premises. And of course there is the old saying that the medium is the message and who decides about the format of the medium ? There are biological effects like information can be addictive and depressing, but it can also be good for mental health and educational. Face book is clinically proven to cause depression, some people might pose questions about public health consequences, and say they want to get rid of the digital version of toys that contain lead-paint, what then ? how do you arbitrate this ?

How about the twitter mobs that try to go on which hunts to cancel the blasphemers and the people that are possessed by demons, or whatever they are calling it these days, does that count as censorship or as free expression ?

>What about China

Socialist countries that don't have enough media production capacity to compete with the capitalist machine have to do media protectionism until they have the strength to level the playing field. I guess China's firewall is justified until they catch up with American cultural soft-power.
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 No.409304

If someone comes into my community or group and yells "uyghur uyghur uyghur", or otherwise causes an obnoxious disturbance, I'm going to mute them. If that counts as 'censorship' I don't really care, no one is suppressing their ideas.

I define censorship specifically as making certain information difficult or impossible to find, for which there is no excuse under any circumstance, period. If you have a hard time finding certain ideas no matter *where* you look, that constitutes censorship IMO.
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 No.409307

Can't believe the utter retardation in this thread. Censorship was only useful because the central state couldn't combat foreign influence effectively, underground papers and what not, nowadays its completely unnecessary.
The US works under a veneer of freeze peach and it does wonders for pacifying its inattentive and even its radical citizens, why can this not be done in socialist country? Would Stalin have had his feelings hurt because someone in Ukraine called him a fascist? Let them name call! It would be utterly detached from material reality. Propaganda always fails in the face of material reality, that's why the US is losing its grip not because of Chinese influence everyone who isn't a retard knows this.
Ask people from the eastern bloc why they moved west and its always the same answer "I was seeking wealth and opportunity!" and more often than not they never get it, THAT's why we have socialist nostalgia because the truth about their former socialist country was that they had everything they ever needed to thrive. But they still long for these rights such as frozen peach, it is a fact that the workers want these types of feel good rights, GIVE IT to them, they deserve it!
Censorship is useful during a revolution, but after? You're just being tyrannical.
Do you honestly think china would collapse if the chinese people were allowed on twitter easily? We flaunt our statistics and knowledge about how much superior socialist states are and yet we're afraid to let the people in those socialist states prove it themselves? We know it to be true, therefore we should have faith in the people that will hammer down anti socialist injustice wherever they find it. This isn't idealism, this is reality, if it was idealism the US would not be as powerful as it is.
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 No.409318

>>409307
why can this not be done in socialist country?

Because capitalists hold most of the power and world wide you nonse. Online it’s even worse because instead of being able to send one agitator in or send out propaganda over radio. They can make it look like there are millions of internal dissenters who are normal citizens just like you.

I feel like most people here don’t understand the scope of online manipulation and botting.
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 No.409322

>>409307
The problem here as I said before is that social media can be used as a way to kickstart a counter revolution very quickly (mere hours in fact) that's literally what happened in Cuba, the burger media says that the brave Cuban people tired of their government suddenly decided to say "no more" and protest, and that's fake, social media was used as a literal weapon to overthrow a legitimate government.

If the US could suddenly astroturf a China protest it would lead to a very serious situation, probably even a civil war (that the Chinese government would win of course, but still a difficult situation)

Social media is not that happy place to watch dumb memes and fap to thots twerking and showing ass, social media is a psychological and political weapon and it should be treated as such.
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 No.409348

Really sad to see all the cocksucking LARPers in this thread supporting hypothetical censorship in their interests, especially given the fact that this community descends from multiple battles over censorship. Newsflash idiots: censorship is never done in your interest. It's done in the interest of a small handful of censors and the bosses who appoint them.
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 No.409349

>>409322
The last time I checked the Cuban government wasn't overthrown.
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 No.409354

>>409349
They tried, and they tried hard, they have been trying hard for over 60 years.
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 No.409445

>>409349
I am almost certain that the Arab Spring, Euromaidan, Hong Kong, Iranian, and Belarusian Protests were either created or intensified by CIA botnets. As time goes on, Porky intelligence agencies get better at using social media for agitation against regimes that they don't like.
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 No.409449

File: 1627586283725.jpeg ( 204.54 KB , 1196x2764 , reddit afghanistan censor….jpeg )

>>409445
Forgot to mention that its not just intelligence agencies. Private companies work in tandem with the government to protect capital. Anti-communist Gusano groups and think-tanks likely rented out a botnet to aid their CIA friends in toppling Castro.
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 No.409493

File: 1627588943347.png ( 240.39 KB , 757x3030 , xkcd-freedom-3.png )


It ows my fucking ballls off how anyone on the left can oppose free speech when they're the ones who need it the most. Anyone who believes in censorship is insecure in their beliefs. All information should be free and should be treated as equal in just the same way that all software should be libre and all art should be considered sacred. Human expression must be limitless if weareto crwate meaning im this life and avoid the slow and bleach decay of encroaching nihilism in our societies. When you censor people on the right, all you do is make martyrs of them and create even more reactionary support from regular people who wouldn't normally support fanaticism who are now creating a coalition with the enemies of a free society, and bang, you have fascism. Fascism starts as an action for unlike leftism, fascism is a means of expression of propoganda and not necessarily a socioeconomic system in of itself. While these things exist detached in their own way like Fascist Italy and American Venturecapitalism, they are end results of a country spiraling through fascism as an act for quite some time. In order to combat this, we must weaponize our free speech in unity and stop fucking dickwagging about menial purity spirals about how "Librulz get the Bullet Too." Take advantage of this opportunity while we have it while the right is facing Whig syndrome due to the Republican party's uncertain ongoing election strategy and let them bicker and bitch amongst each other about "muh uyghurs" and "no fauchi ouchi my freedumbz." Your freedom of speech is your destiny. Words how power. Use them wisely. Show those who constantly harangue about how le ebil leftists who are destroying western civilization that you care about the most important Western value there ever was., and always remember to be a good advocate for your cause..
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 No.409496

I think censorship is a tool that should be used minimally if at all.
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 No.409503

>>409493
I don't oppose free speech, I oppose CIA conducting astroturfing operations on social media to try to topple legitimate socialist governments.
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 No.409504

>>409168
>Unity and coherence, freedom of expression divides us
Thats the fascist argument lol
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 No.409513

>>409348
>Newsflash idiots: censorship is never done in your interest
except, you know, that a /leftypol/ would have been impossible to establish but by censoring the rightoids who'd try to to crapflood it. (moreso on 8ch.)
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 No.409521

File: 1627590507908.jpeg ( 140.98 KB , 1478x1242 , covid vaccine propaganda ….jpeg )

Individual freedom of speech and the freedom of press corporations and astroturf marketing companies to do what they want are two different things.
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 No.409531

>>409513
Nice revisionism, censorship is quite literally what killed the growth of the community at a critical period on 8ch.
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 No.409539

>>409531
There's a clear difference between government's censorship (that even the US is guilty of doing) and "muh community censorship" when a bunch of power tripping jannies start deleting shit that triggers them.
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 No.409542

>>409539
Sure, and they both suck.
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 No.409545

>>409531
it's not revisionism. censorship was necessary to create the community. it damaged it greatly in the past, and it is necessary to preserve it to this day.
the question is not "censorship, yes or no" as though that's a binary question. censorship is inevitable - the question is WHO is censored.
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 No.409549

>>409545
let's be patronizing and spell it out: censoring nazis, good. censoring idpol, good. censoring leftists because you don't like them, bad.
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 No.409551

File: 1627591577523.png ( 313.09 KB , 1741x540 , Lets_start_with_this_red_p….png )

>>409531
Censorship in general is what killed 8chan. The administration proactively censored all major boards while keeping people like Mark on PAYROLL to do censorious bull ass horseshit like Rule 8 which was made for the sole purpose of deleting anything the mods didn't like which may I remind everyone was completely asteoturfed by mods pretending to be grassroots users because they were mad about Huey shitting in the shower. It was all downhill from there. /pol/ would ban you for 1488 years for slight disagreements with the status quo and the administration went out of their way to actively forlster terror cells there so it could make Q-I-mean Watkins a lot of money. We must learn from the mistakes of the past and realize just how freaking important freedom.of speech is for the continued existence of any surviving post 8ch community, for it was the pivotal force that brought us all together all those years ago, before we turned our backs on one another and our principles after years of revisionism and decay, which is not in whole but in part the fault of the admins but also our very selves. None of us are without sin, we can be better and build something truly amazing.
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 No.409554

>>409549
But you have to ask if everyone considers the same things 'leftist' (they don't)
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 No.409556

>>409080
>>409088
depends, when i was in China it was impossible to find the tank man photo on chinese internet and if you searched for the dali lama the internet connection literally got disconnected for like 5 minutes. i bet my IP got pinged to a Public Security Bureau agent who checked that it was a foreigner who lived there so they left me alone. when i was driving in the chinese city i lived in with a friend he pointed out a giant gray unmarked building he told me that inside at 10 000 people who monitor the local internet and cellphone communications 24/7
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 No.409557

>>409551
Without 'censorship' ie. moderation though, everything is just machine spam. Everything comes to nought.
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 No.409559

>>409556
>a friend he pointed out a giant gray unmarked building he told me that inside at 10 000 people who monitor the local internet and cellphone communications 24/7
That's actually quite impressive.
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 No.409564

>>409551
it was definitely the censorship, not the murders.
the lesson of 8chan is that no imageboard should allow /pol/ on it, which by-definition entails censoring /pol/ retardation.
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 No.409576

I don't equate censorship to moderation. They are both different.

Actively blocking information is never good because it may ruin how people feel about you is absolutely garbage.

Actively blocking child porn, beastiality and things of those nature are fine because it is no one's interest to watch unconsented sexual activities.

If the state is blocking it without letting the citizens know why? That's censorship and that's not good. If they are blocking it because citizens agreed upon it being blocked? That's moderation and that's perfectly fine.
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 No.409578

>>409091
You understand that we arent liberals and we dont care about democracy, right?
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 No.409582

>>409578
>You understand we don’t care about bourgeois democracy
Ftfy
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 No.409583

>>409576
>I don't equate censorship to moderation.

Whether something is censorship, or moderation, pretty much just depends on how you feel about it.
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 No.409585

>>409578
Liberals don't actually care about democracy, perhaps you should rejoin them.
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 No.409586

File: 1627592640608.jpg ( 35.7 KB , 640x480 , Trump Lost.jpg )

>>409564
>it was definitely the censorship, not the murders.
If you want to go all facts and logic mode, there is such thing as cause and effect. If 8ch wasn't rampant with censorship in the first place, it wouldn't have become a far right circlejerk and safe space. If the free market of ideas ahd been present, and the mod team did not evaporate dissenting opinions, /pol/ would not have become the terror cell that it was. I'm not saying that it was the only factor or even the prevailing one, however, censorship is at least partially responsible for those murders.
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 No.409598

>>409556
Weird.
To me, that’s shitty, but I also understand the pragmatic reasons behind it.
It’s not like the U.S. isn’t doing the same thing.
As much as I would like it, the open internet seems like a lost cause because there is 0 incentives for the powers that be around the world to temper their iron grip on it.
Wish it wasn’t so.
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 No.409600

>>409598
Well the US takes a different strategy to China, which is 'manufactured consent'. I generally think the American method is better. Propaganda > bludgeon.
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 No.409603

>>409586
>If the free market of ideas ahd been present
there is no such thing. you may as well say "but if god had been willing to intervene!"
even if /pol/ was incubated by moderators (and i would say that this is true, but not strictly necessary - rightism is better suited to the dynamics of imageboard contrarianism because it has no need to ever try to justify itself as being for the collective good, which even the neoliberal status quo pretends to do.), the fastest way to get rid of it after it was born was to kill it.

to say "censorship was responsible" even in your own description of the circumstances is to step too far back from events: it's akin to saying "guns did the murders" and so swearing off guns as a tool, as though the only possible consequence of having an army would be to also invite massacres by armed criminals because both use guns. pro right censorship did the murders once /pol/ had been birthed, the fastest way to kill it would be with anti-/pol/ censorship, not with a free market of ideas opened up at a point where /pol/ was already strong.* the "market of ideas", like the real market, works best when the someone's standing at the side giving it a kick every so often.
*well, a genuine, spam included free market of ideas would certainly have gotten rid of /pol/, but it would have taken the entire site down with it all the same.
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 No.409611

File: 1627593367105.jpg ( 67.5 KB , 783x767 , 2018-03-25_20-53-29.jpg )

>Part of Reagan’s destabilization effort involved an escalation of the ideological warfare waged by Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty. Between 1982 and 1986, both stations increased the number and sophistication of their foreign-language broadcasts, as well as the number of their listeners. As glasnost reduced and then eliminated jamming in 1988, Radio Liberty reached 22 million Soviet listeners a month. Both stations fomented nationalism, stirred up outrage over the Chernobyl disaster, encouraged opposition to the Soviet war in Afghanistan, provided a platform for pro- market advocates like Yeltsin, and aired unsubstantiated corruption charges against the Party leader, Yegor Ligachev, after he opposed Gorbachev.
Nice freedom you got there.
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 No.409627

>>409600
Kind of hard to tell for me.
I don’t know if the methods of psychological manipulation via propaganda would work the same in the east.
For instance, it may be a double edge sword if it’s so open that even U.S. propaganda can leak in. Hong Kong seems to be a bitter lesson there. There would need to be huge think tanks to counter it. I know there’s a publicity department in China, but they seem more ready to ban rather than create counter propaganda.
Could be wrong though since I’m not an expert on the topic of east vs west propaganda as it relates to the susceptibility of the public.
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 No.409629

>>409582
Read Bordiga…
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 No.409634

>>409603
This.

Cant believe how many people here still believe in the anti-marxist "marketplace of ideas", as if free expression somehow on its own makes good ideas win and bad ideas lose. You always need a censor to remove the bad opinions or the bad stuff will overtake the good stuff simply on the basis of shitty content being easier to produce than quality content.

But at least it reveals all the red-painted liberals on this board.
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 No.409641

>>409634
>channeling Marx while advocating for censorship
Get the fuck out. Marx was a clear defender of freedom of the press and opponent to censorship.
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 No.409651

>>409641
Marx wasn't living in an age where a few standard home computers can flood an unmoderated board with more words than could be published by all the printing presses of the world.
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 No.409654

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File: 1627594936283-1.png ( 103.82 KB , 266x494 , mgs2.PNG )

>"The digital society furthers human flaws and selectively rewards development of convenient half-truths. Just look at the strange juxtapositions of morality around you."

Was Kojima right bruhs?
It looks like
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 No.409914

>>409307
>Can’t believe the utter retardation
Yes, it’s smart to defend the practice of freezing peaches, especially when that means you’re allowing megacorporate-backed media companies, neoliberal mainstream media, and far-right propaganda to INFILTRATE your minds without even knowing.

Censorship is beneficial.

t. OP
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 No.409959

>>409091
>"leftists" who make excuses for censorship are quite simply fascists in red garb
Well, you people always love to scream about DA GABITALIST NATZI FAGGOTS, so what you afraid about? Censorship is not always wrong, which is why sane moderates, centrists and right wingers MUST censor anyone who shows leftists behavioral problem. That is good thinking, because stripping leftists of the right to shit up places works.

Not every site is like 4chan and 8chan, which is why you people can never really take hold on most websites no matter how much you try to copy /pol/. The problem with the right is that they have an almost chronic obsession with values and principles, and when you appeal to said values and principles, you make the right feel doubt. They may feel ashamed about silencing some Chapo fag house nerd, because they feel that would be contradictory to their beliefs. But the instant the GABITALIST NATZI FAGGOT pleads to his value, the leftoid almost takes glee in his suffering.

Historically, people who support free speech have only ever gotten fucked over by people like you. The history of free speech activism is basically a continually lost battle, which conveniently seemed to only happen once leftist speech was no longer being repressed in universities back in the 1960s.

If I have to live in a world with censorship and no free speech. Then yeah, I want to live in the world that censors and restricts free speech on the basis of sanity and civilization, so enemies of civilization, like you, deserve to be censored.
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 No.409978

>>409959
>If I have to live in a world with censorship and no free speech. Then yeah, I want to live in the world that censors and restricts free speech on the basis of sanity and civilization, so enemies of civilization, like you, deserve to be censored.
Thanks for proving:
<"leftists" who make excuses for censorship are quite simply fascists in red garb
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 No.410085

b u m p
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 No.410097

>>409504
>all 'totalitarianism' is fascism
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 No.410101

>>410097
>I cant read
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 No.410121

>>409074
>What do you guys think about censorship?
In theory it works. In practice, you are drawn to the belief that one of the strengths of the Eternal Anglo is that generally they do not censor like others.

>>409074
>Particularly those done by seemingly "authoritarian" regimes like China and North Korea and to a lesser extent Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand, Cambodia, and Russia?

Aside from Indonesia, Thailand, Cambodia, arguably epistemological anti-imperialism.

>>409074

>Are they beneficial?

Never in themselves. They merely remove drawbacks. Censorship is a negative action, not a positive good to be used against rightist propaganda.

>>409074
>Does that enhance a country's online security?
I don't know.

>>409074

>Or is it something that bis more like taking the bluepill by the fact that you can't access to different viewpoints, instead just seeing the same "I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG" mentality by the government?


At a certain point, you just get tired of having to refute each and every defamation and falsehood peddled by creationists, anti-vaxxers, holocaust-deniers, natural cure quacks that censorship is the more useful option.

<So my response is that censorship, if implemented, should be done with due process and openness. A system of revolutionary courts should investigate each and every particular claim by those accused of peddling lies. These trials would need to be open. Climate change denial, anti-vaxxer idealism, creationism need to be especially scrutinised. Take their fucking servers if they're guilty of defamation of science.
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 No.410600

>>409349
THE CUBAN GOVWRMENT CENCSORA THHIWE FIXKING INTERNET YOU MONGOLOID
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 No.410629

>>409074
Free speech is an absolute necessity and attempts to curtail it should be opposed at all times.That said, (dis)information warfare is very much a real thing and should also be fought against. The two don't conflict unless one is arguing in bad faith trying to conflate them.


I don't see the problem.

ie.
You can ban all gusanos and prohibit US/Porky propaganda without it being a curtailment of free speech.
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 No.411426

You fight disinformation with information. By banning it you simply legitimize it among rebellious people.
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 No.411431

>>411426
That assumes information negates disinformation. It doesn't.

All you are doing is letting the information war be decided by whoever has the most resources and willingness to subvert the other.
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 No.411447

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"Censorship" and "freedom of speech" exist within a dialectical unity of opposites. Socialist countries wouldn't have censorship if there wasn't a global liberal media hegemony that advocated for western capitalism, western ideology, western imperialism, separatism in various countries, bourgeois compradorism, fake news, etc. etc. etc.

Likewise, to say that "anything goes" on a board full of people talking about communism is a recipe for doom because of right-wing provocateurs who will raid us to disrupt the occasionally semi-productive conversations that we have from time to time in the name of "freedom of speech." Or glowfarms and other bad actors who will spread propaganda which we've seen happen during wider organized political operations.

Censorship should have specific objectives to accomplish, such as eliminating raids and glowfarm disinfo and lurid racist propaganda that you see on /pol/ and so forth. And otherwise protecting the safety of other users by censoring CP and obscene material like that, rather than censoring something that does no harm to our mini lefty posting society that should be encouraged to post content that is (a) fun and (b) mildly informative.
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 No.411448

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 No.411454

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>>411447
Censorship doesn't exist "because right-wingers made me", it exists and will continue to exist, because it is necessary. "Freedom of speech" exists for a reason, (like all freedoms liberals advocate for), that reason being the hypothesis that in a free exchange of ideas, the better and true ones will prevail. This is objectively not true, hence censorship will be necessary. This is even ignoring that "freedom of speech" is merely a guarantee of lack of censorship from the government alone. Which is itself, historically, a lie, on top of sources of censorship coming from other places, like corporations, or literally anyone with more money than you. Stop confusing what is the default and what is the aberration, and accept the Office of the Censor, something you might actually have a say in.

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