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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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 No.402872[Last 50 Posts]

This will destroy everything you thought about growth, de-growth (Malthusianism), and the "alternative economy".

Effectively BTFOs ecologists, an-prims, third worldists, market socialists, and a bunch of other losers and goons.
>>

 No.402885

>>402872
>Just replace natural capital with human capital
No thanks porky
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 No.402936

Geezer here. I remember a lot of the "small scale" stuff being heavily pushed during Occupy (time stores, time banks, credit unions, worker coops, mutual aid networks, community land trusts). It all makes sense now, that trust fund babies whose parents are billionaires/millionaires and designated movement "leaders" would want to promote fake solutions to the anti-capitalist outrage that would appear homely and sustainable on the surface but would do little to nothing to fight the power held by those at the very, very top.
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 No.402956

>>402872
>de-growth (Malthusianism)
kys
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 No.402961

>>402956
Watch the doc. He goes over the evils of Malthusianism and why the ruling class is pushing it.
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 No.402966

17 minutes in. Adam Curtis already covered this shit better than this soy-voiced Bay Area yuppie ever could with way better editing and way more information.
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 No.402970

>>402966
Such as?
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 No.402973

>Trashes Sortition at the end
Oof.
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 No.402980

>>402970
His newest documentary Can't Get You Out of My Head is specifically about the rise and crisis of individualism. One of the topics he covers was the rise of individualist activism, which completely fails to account for the power structures which underly these issues, and thus the movement it self is powerless to stop it. In The Trap he attacks the absolute schizo notions underlying the "homo-economicus", which corelates a lot with the reddit-tier utilitariansim presented here. Also in The Trap (though it might have been some other doc) he attacks degrowth via talking about the use of Holism in politics to argue that the structure of capital is "natural", and the only way in the future is to degrow in order to keep it all "sustainable", instead of radically changing the system it self.

Note that he doesn't talk about all of these things directly, but it is easy to learn it from his docs if you have a brain. This video on the other hand is centralized on just a few issues, which works as well.
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 No.403026

Is this shit really worth making a documentary over? From what I know, the people advocating a degrown/sharing economy are very fringe. No one in power is advocating this stuff really.
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 No.403046

>>402961
This starts out good by dismantling the malthusianism of neoliberal environmentalism like degrowth
but at the end they pull a bait and switch and start attacking sortition democracy and even cybernetics by linking it to silicon valley.
The conclusion that we should not abandon economic growth, is correct, but they don't say how they want to remake the economy.


>>402973
There is something up with this, i have seen a billgates foundation sponsored video that argued for sortition, maybe they are trying to create a fake version of sortition ? It's very confusing. If you consider that sortition democracy would completely remove the ability of rich billionaires to influence who gets political power, they ought to be against it. what gives ?
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 No.403079

>>403026
The anti-ecology people like to pretend that "degrowthers" are everywhere and are massively supported by the capitalist class, when in reality they're a diverse, tiny fringe and the vast majority of people, including socialists, defend ever-expanding industrial production and despise those who demand limitations on productive forces. So much so that people like OP side with wealthy liberals in order to destroy their "opponents"
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 No.403507

>>402872
Is it wrong I want Jason Unruhe to debunk this video?
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 No.403543

File: 1627327195012.png ( 1.23 MB , 1968x1382 , Screen Shot 2021-07-26 at ….png )

>>403507
FYI this was from Jason's documentary. This shit just screams noble savage bullshit.
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 No.403581

File: 1627329189757.png ( 1001.26 KB , 1894x1224 , Screen Shot 2021-07-08 at ….png )

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 No.403707

>>403543
He must be a New Ager now.
>>

 No.403813

>>403046
>i have seen a billgates foundation sponsored video that argued for sortition
its not like every single video is flat out corporate propaganda, its not a planned conspiracy and real people who mostly believe in their shit make these.
Also I can totally imagine a system where sortition play a role but we're still fucked. Or they push for a big systemic change and hijack it for their interests. But mostly I think they're just hiring lib inclined people and as long as they dont stray too far off script they have full liberty.
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 No.403902

File: 1627340401804.png ( 380.47 KB , 561x1400 , third-worldist-chart3333.png )

>>403543
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 No.403955

>>403902
>>403581
>>403543
What is even the point of Third Worldism other than an exaggerated Nietzschean slave morality? The French Revolution and the October Revolution both occurred in great power cores. Third Worldism has the same vibes of the MTF trans who wants to feel at the bottom, a kind of sanctified victim. Hysterical.
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 No.403959

>>402872
Yeah i can just imagine how "mind blowing" faggotry this is. Cut your hair and get a job hippy.
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 No.403972

>>403955
>you're only allowed to care about workers in your own country
also I think one of the arguments is that no communist revolution will happen in the imperial core anymore, the workers are too placated by the gains/cheap costs of imperialism, so it falls to those who are exploited the most, by both their own bourgeoisie and the imperial core's. Russia was an outlier, 80% peasants and pre-industrialized. French revolution was a bourgeois revolution. That said, exoticizing foreign poor people is obviously a problem.
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 No.404013

>>403972
which breaks down when capitalism enters deep crisis mode and imperialists gradually lose the capacity to placate core proles. i.e. why TWism is mostly a phenomenon of the 1970s New Communist Movement which existed during a time of relative economic prosperity, stable unions (at first), and a lot of focus on student organizing.
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 No.404040

>>403902
As an actual 3rd worlder I can say that most of those points regarding the 3rd world are absolute dogshit.

We're just a poorer, more decaying form of the US (culture, degeneracy and all) The only exception is family, we value family much more than the US and boomer hate is almost non-existant.
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 No.404044

>>404013
Correct. 3Wism is highly outdated because the Labor Aristocracy in most western countries (including the US) is nearly dead. Keep in mind, the LA wasn't something that capitalists planned on creating, it occurred naturally as some workers became more privileged than others. The idea that the capitalist class will magically resurrect the LA if things start getting out of hand is highly unlikely, since the conditions that gave rise to it in the first place are no longer here.
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 No.404046

>>404040
Don't mind me asking, but what country are you in?
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 No.404047

>>403972
A communist revolution almost took place in the south of France in 1907.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9volte_des_vignerons_de_1907
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 No.404049

>>404040
>We're just a poorer, more decaying form of the US
Same too. From another third world countr, only with strict anticommunism and strong rightist sentiments.

Doesn't it sound like the US in the 50s do you?
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 No.404051

>>404049
I assumed people in the Third World were more nationalist and religious, and held a sense of wanting to revive their pre-colonized way of life?
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 No.404057

>>404054
Isn't Acelh province a full-blown Islamist theocracy?
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 No.404058

>>404051
No, it's specifically in indonesia. We have this ideology called Pancasila in which it stresses the concept of The Unity of God. Couple it with TAP MPRS 25/1966 and several Islamist organizations…

and BOOM!!! Now you've got an ultraconservative shithole.
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 No.404060

>>403543
This shit is basically what Dugin advocates.
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 No.404061

>>404057
Especially that. PUBG is banned there, people are being flogged for offenses… basically they implemented Sharia since the fall of Suharto and the dismissal of GAM/Free Aceh. In the 2000s.
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 No.404064

>>404058
>>404061
Kind of flies in the face of white western leftists who think Islam is "inherently" a communist ideology.
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 No.404066

>>404046
Mexico.
Well at least we have socialized healthcare and education!

>>404051
>I assumed people in the Third World were more nationalist and religious
We are, probably, but not really "traditional" anymore, the culture is 100% US based and a lot of people idealize the US way of life, without considering that the US itself is going through a very deep crisis.

People act all nationalist and shit but they still coooonsoooom all the US propaganda, products and services. A big part of our politicians (currently on the opposition) would like to sell the whole country to the US and neoliberalism, they would be more than happy to do so, and they don't even try to hide it.

Makes me want to puke honestly.
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 No.404075

>>404064
Until they go face to face Habib Rizieq Shihab, a Trump-style ultraconservative hardline Islamist preacher liked and disliked by many.
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 No.404076

>>404064
Oh! Mexico! No wonder that you're just the degenerate version of the US. It lies directly SOUTH of burgerland!
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 No.404083

File: 1627346108304.jpg ( 65.28 KB , 554x729 , Porfirio_Diaz_in_uniform.jpg )

>>404076
"Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States"

The guy who said it was an actual dictator, but he was right on that one
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 No.404086

>>404083
The fact that a dictator said that makes it even more based.
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 No.404090

>>404066
>the culture is 100% US based and a lot of people idealize the US way of life, without considering that the US itself is going through a very deep crisis.
Aren't there indigenous groups in Mexico who want to do away with American influence and decolonize the culture?
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 No.404094

>>404090
Wow! Interesting!
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 No.404097

>>404090
Yes, they're mostly located in the poor south and mostly ignored by the rest of the population (including the so called "leftist" government)
Btw zapatistas are a joke and no one takes them seriously, they're a bunch of LARP'ers but for some reason some foreigners have much respect for them.

They were indeed relevant 25 years ago, a bit later even they got eaten by the neoliberal LARP'ing.
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 No.404108

>>403507
>>403543
Jason can't "debunk" anyone. I remember talking to an ex-friend of his who said his older videos (especially his theory ones) were all written by the friends he had at the time. He doesn't know Marxism from his own ass, he only repeats certain phrases over and over without elaborating.
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 No.404113

>>404108
So he's just a parrot?
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 No.404117

>>404113
I guess so.

I seriously don't get the New Age "demarchist" thing he's pushing now. It sounds like some kind of postcolonial bullshit. Definitely anti-Marxist. But it makes sense, since Unruhe has never been all that knowledgeable when it comes to Marxism.
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 No.404244

>>403902
It's no surprise that the vast majority of "third worldists" are middle-class white youth with college degrees. They have this weird fascination for third world people as well as the indigenous peoples of the Americas because they like the deconstructive aspect of it: third world societies are a foil to the west which force westerners to reflect on the nature of western culture and all its social constructs and social structures. It's exactly like Foucault writing about societal deviants and raising the questions of what the madman, criminal, etc. reflect about their societies.

There is zero praxis with third worldism. It's all a bunch of academic nonsense. That's why its biggest proponents are the same people on tumblr whining about tone policing and privilege checking (is that still a thing?) and validating others' trauma.
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 No.404312

>>404047
That particular revolution occurred when France was still industrializing. This is not the case anymore. Nearly all global north countries have postindustrial economies in which the service industry (think: medicine, IT, real estate, finance, education, legal services etc,) is the dominant economic sector and the division between bourgeoisie and proletariat is obscured by the Spectacle. The particular economic arrangement of the global north makes class consciousness difficult (if not impossible). The particular economic situation that led to that rebellion does not exist in 21st century France.

It is a lot easier to see what the means of production are and how they shape life when the means of production are a physical machine that the workers operate. An Indian operating privately-owned machinery can see the class divisions with his own eyes much better than an American computer programmer.

It is important to note that the economic differences between the global north and the global south are not the only reason why the global south has more revolutionary potential. Global north welfare states were created to suppress revolutionary sentiment and are astoundingly good at their jobs. The wealth of the global north also leads to a greater market for entertainment, and thus a greater reliance on the Spectacle to gain submission rather than brute force. The global north has developed a panem (welfare) et circenses (spectacle).

This is not to say that first-worlder cannot be class conscious, but rather that the economic situation of the global north does not lend itself to breed class consciousness.

An agricultural workers revolution like the one that you mentioned would not be likely in modern day Europe; especially with ever-increasing automation and increased yields due to pesticides and other tech. Modern agriculture typically employs immigrants whose fear of being deported dissuades them from standing up to their boss. I recommend reading about the economics of global trade and the massive shifts in the global economy that occurred during the late 20th century.
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 No.404313

>>404097
>They were indeed relevant 25 years ago, a bit later even they got eaten by the neoliberal LARP'ing.
How so?
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 No.404320

File: 1627358197949.png ( 659.73 KB , 1024x595 , ClipboardImage.png )

>>402872
>de-growth (Malthusianism)
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 No.404321

>>404312
You're basically saying there comes a point in development when class consciousness ceases to exist, because the machines become automated and unseen by the average worker. I'm not sure this argument holds, especially when conditions in the West are becoming gradually worse.
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 No.404331

>>404312
This implies a few things:

1. The welfare state in most western countries can be resurrected on a whim if workers get too angry, which is not the case. Austerity is crippling many places in the global north, especially in southern Europe.

2. Most workers in the GN are not computer programmers.

3. Socialist revolution isn't always going to take the form of an armed struggle. Look at Bolivarianism in Latin America and how those countries have made relatively peaceful transitions to socialism sans running around with guns in the woods. The ways revolution are carried out changes as the material conditions change. In some cases armed struggle is necessary, but communists always use violence as a last resort, NEVER a first. If you can take power through elections, you run elections.

4. There is no such thing as a pure revolutionary subject and you're naive as fuck for thinking there is. You play with the cards you're dealt.
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 No.404406

>>402936
Occupy was a total astroturf from the start.
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 No.404479

>>404406
>occupy was astroturf from the start
>which is why it took the Obama administration by surprise, was thoroughly mocked from the outset by the msm, garnered a worldwide following, and had to be violently put down by riot police
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 No.404480

>>404479
It was funded by big nonprofits.
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 No.404482

>>404320
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/degrowth-delusion/
>The degrowth delusion
>To abandon growth is to declare an end to progress. Socialists must reject the politics of eco-Thatcherism.

>Yet at the very moment that the socialist case for planning should be at its most obvious, sections of the environmental community have embraced a revival of 'limits to growth' philosophy, or Malthusianism—an ideology the left battled against dating back to Friedrich Engels' arguments against its eponymous founder, Thomas Malthus—this time going by the name of 'degrowth'. Rallying under the slogan that you can't have infinite growth on a finite planet, the philosophy has been articulated in slightly varying forms by many academics

>Rather than viewing the market's irrational production as the source of environmental challenges, the degrowth position views the source to be economic growth.

>The degrowth argument says that we have to reduce aggregate economic activity. However, what is foreclosed by the notion of degrowth is the possibility of socialist growth: a boundless—if carefully planned—increase in the creation of new value that does not undermine the ecosystem services upon which human flourishing depends.
>>

 No.404490

>>404482
Thank you. Other leftists need to make the link between de-growth and austerity.
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 No.404800

>>402961
>>402956
Isn't de growth more related to the idea that growing an economy for the sake of MUH gdp is essentially ritualistic and doesn't really help anyone, rather than being against the idea of population growth?
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 No.404801

>>403046
>The conclusion that we should not abandon economic growth, is correct


Why?
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 No.404814

>>404064
Who thinks that?
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 No.404868

>>404482
Leigh Phillips is a shill who publishes apologia for tech capitalists and the nuclear industry. Try again.
https://climateandcapitalism.com/2017/09/25/memo-to-jacobin-ecomodernism-is-not-ecosocialism/
>>

 No.405106

>>403543
>>403581
>>403902
>>404244
>>404312
Third Worldism (whether Sakaiism or Unruheism) and "indigenism" have one major, major flaw that no one is talking about.

Historically, armed struggle (including terrorism) worked very well in decolonization movements. That's why the British got out of India and the French got out of North Africa: the constant terrorism and resistance was too high for them to pay for staying there.

However, in the case of Turtle Island any far-left adventurist terrorism doesn't work, because the so-called "white Eurosettlers" have nowhere to go. If Maoist Third-Worldists or indigenists start running around in their cargo shorts blowing shit up in order to decolonize, all that will do is cause the "Eurosettlers" to push back against them even harder.

The British in India could flee back to Britain. The French in the Maghreb could flee back to France. The Dutch in Indonesia could flee back to the Netherlands. The Portuguese in Angola could flee back to Portugal. And so on. But if my family arrived in North America from Ireland in the 1840s to escape the Potato Famine (genocide) or from Italy to escape extreme poverty, where the fuck do I go? What if I'm a quarter Irish, a quarter German, a quarter French, and a quarter Italian? What if my ancestors came to Turtle Island in the 1600s or 1700s?

So the biggest argument against the ultra-left MTWists and the "DECOLONIZE!" crowd is that they actually view the white working-class as colonizers who have a home to return to, and believe that with enough resistance and terror they can eventually drive them out.

This is why I firmly believe the only way to achieve a socialist America is through non-violent means, similar to the way the Bolivarian revolutions have taken off in Latin America. And there too, it's not like Hugo Chavez forced all white Venezuelans to return to their countries of origin. Same thing with Bolivia: even with a heavily indigenous leadership there were zero demands that white Bolivians give up their homes and return to Europe.

I think that as time moves on and the ultra-left academics who keep demanding everyone read Settlers start seeing their salaries dry up you'll start seeing a change of heart in this regard.
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 No.405111

File: 1627403305467.gif ( 3.32 MB , 480x270 , 27a147e6a2317037d2f807b049….gif )

>>404482
> a boundless—if carefully planned—increase in the creation of new value that does not undermine the ecosystem services upon which human flourishing depends.
we are fucking doomed
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 No.405180

>>405106
Same thing in Canada. It’s not like all the recent church burnings have made Catholic Canadians (most of whom are whites from France, Ireland, Ukraine) flee Canada to their ancestors’ home countries. If anything it’s only made Canadian Catholics more hostile. I know of a guy who told me he’s thinking about bringing a gun to mass “just in case”.
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 No.405256

>>405180
Is the mass graves issue hysteria ie just old graves of kids who died from smallpox/typhus/ disease etc or is there actual evidence of murder?
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 No.405263

?
>>

 No.405273

>>403955
fuck off pol
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 No.405276

>>405273
What your problem?
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 No.405289

>>404868
You don't understand the argument. Capitalism isn't going to build enough nuclear reactors, or do geo-engineering and all the other stuff vigorously enough to fix our predicament. The problem is that capitalism is fettering technological solutions. What we need is socialism that is taking environmental factors into account, but at the same time unleash the productive forces from the capitalist limitations.

De-growth and other Malthusian misdirection does not really care about damage to the biological environment, they are just using issues like climate change as excuses for their misanthropic desire to make people suffer. They despise technology because it made life easier for masses of people. They want to undo technology to force people back into the barren conditions that existed in feudalism, they want to make life hard on people. They are the last remnants of the opposition to the bourgeois revolution and the industrial age.

The argument that the only solution to environmental problems is reducing technological growth is tripple wrong. First on the most basic scientific level because technology can be reconfigured to take the environment into account, It's just that capitalism is not doing that because it has only monetary measures. On the second level it's fundamentally clear that these people are captured by mystical thinking who imagine technology and nature as fundamentally opposed forces. Machines and biological organisms operate under the same laws of physics. And the most important reason is that we have long ago crossed the point of no return of techno-industrial society, we have no other option than expand our technical abilities to such a high level of power that we can produce ecological repair and substitution work.

>that retarded István Mészáros quote
It's much worse to believe in whichcraft than technological solutions, because technology does work most of the time, which-craft never works.

I want you to understand that socialism is the mode of production that looks to do away with capitalist inefficiencies in order to drive the technology train harder and further. Because we want to make it work for everybody not just a minority of rich people, we have to get more out of tech. We would preferably have a planet-scale machine that lets us tweak all the variables of the environment that are important for having humanity and life in general thrive. Because when all is said and done, the planet is a geological machine with a thin smear of life ontop that only survives because of furious improvisation.
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 No.405314

>>405256
If the church arsons weren’t happening the whole situation would have blown over by now.
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 No.405337

>>405256
To add, no. There’s no evidence of direct murder. It’s more like: “the priests and nuns who ran the schools intentionally let the Native children die.”
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 No.405798

>>405337
Letting someone die is the same as directly killing them.
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 No.405815

>>405106
>However, in the case of Turtle Island any far-left adventurist terrorism doesn't work, because the so-called "white Eurosettlers" have nowhere to go.
After Rhodesia became Zimbabwe, most white Rhodesians/white Zimbabweans moved to Australia or South Africa. The ones who moved to Australia had a terrible time integrating since everyone assumed they were violent racist pricks.

t. used to communicate with a Rhodesian woman who moved to Australia as a teenager after the war
>>

 No.405829

>>405106
>similar to the way the Bolivarian revolutions have taken off in Latin America. And there too, it's not like Hugo Chavez forced all white Venezuelans to return to their countries of origin. Same thing with Bolivia: even with a heavily indigenous leadership there were zero demands that white Bolivians give up their homes and return to Europe.
I have to ask if decolonization activists view anti-imperialist countries in Latin America like Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Bolivia, and now Peru to already be "decolonized" since they've broken (for the most part) with the Western imperialist system. How do you determine if a country has been decolonized? What are the criteria?
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 No.406111

>>403902
I love how literally everyone who opposes to turd worldism are actually from the third world. It just looks so condescending towards people of the global south as noble savages it’s not even hilarious but pathetic. These would the same bastards that advocate for fascism as long as brown people are the leader.
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 No.406127

>>406111
Because people who actually live in or used to live in the Third World know how shitty it really is and don't romanticize it.

Turd Worldists are like the rich hipsters who become "homeless by choice" just to experience a "wild" and "outside-the-system" lifestyle. Couple that with the Western Guilt Industrial-Complex which has been a thing since the late 1970s and you've got a recipe for disaster.
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 No.406643

>>405106
> But if my family arrived in North America from Ireland in the 1840s to escape the Potato Famine (genocide) or from Italy to escape extreme poverty, where the fuck do I go? What if I'm a quarter Irish, a quarter German, a quarter French, and a quarter Italian? What if my ancestors came to Turtle Island in the 1600s or 1700s?

a settler isn't any less of a settler just because they've been on the stolen land for a long time.
>>

 No.406646

>>406643
Actually, if the land has been settled and they had no part in doing it, then they are, in fact, no longer a settler.
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 No.406652

File: 1627453435134.png ( 333.65 KB , 556x556 , scar.png )

>>402961
I'm so fucking sick of this shit; Malthusianism != any population disaster. Malthus' specific theory of population growing exponentially while resources only grow linearly is wrong (resource, specifically food, out-paced linear growth due to technological advancements he never predicted, and the population is leveling off due to sociological-economic aspects he never predicted). The general idea that humans cannot reproduce infinitely with the earth's finite resources is 100% correct.
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 No.406659

>>406643
How do you define settler? Plenty of "native" groups have been proven to migrate from other areas (hell the Aztec's and Polynesian's origin myths are about coming from a far off land) and exploit others. The Navajo's had an illiterate empire and fought with the Confederates to keep their long held tradition of slavery of other "native" americans (and towards the end blacks). There were people living in Europe (google Etruscans) before the "europeans" arrived.

sage double post*
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 No.406740

>>402872
This doc deserves a million views.
>>

 No.406931

>>405289
More retarded strawmanning from the ecomodernist crowd.

Most degrowth ideas revolve around a period of pruning back industrial production and complexity (NOT technology per se) after a future revolutionary transformation. It's a recognition that emissions and waste are getting out of control under contemporary capitalism, but that a future socialist society could control and guide production towards sustainability. No serious eco-socialist is in favor of primitivism or enforcing austerity under capitalism.

The ecomodernist fetishization of capitalist technology and growth is just like Trotskyists fetishizing democracy so much that they become anti-Soviet neoconservatives to own authoritarianism. And what a surprise, there's a whole network of liberal NGOs and pro-business think tanks willing to publish "ecomodernist" texts to own those anti-business commie doomer greens! I'm sure it's just a coincidence too that Leigh Phillips also wrote for Spiked Online, the Trotskyist-turned-libertarian rag beloved for its contrarian hate for the contemporary left.
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 No.407346

File: 1627493162666.png ( 454.15 KB , 1950x1482 , Screen Shot 2021-07-04 at ….png )

>>403543
Can someone please tell me why Third Worldists and indigenous anarchists are so bloody obsessed with metaphysics?

It's like they can't just talk about making conditions better for the working class but have to inject all this bullshit about spirituality, the concept of space, the concept of time, etc.

I remember talking to an anarkid (who was also a grad student) about cities after the revolution, and he started talking about how there should be 'non-Euclidian urban planning.' What the fuck does that mean?

Like, I don't get it at all.
>>

 No.407351

>>404800
I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a mad anti-environmentalist would intentionally misunderstand the green movement
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 No.407354

>>407346
>I remember talking to an anarkid (who was also a grad student) about cities after the revolution, and he started talking about how there should be 'non-Euclidian urban planning.'
Deleuze and Guattari were a mistake.
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 No.407369

File: 1627494090303.png ( 338.19 KB , 1100x652 , 3d-example-of-euclidean-zo….png )

>>407354
>>407346
>'non-Euclidian urban planning.' What the fuck does that mean?
Basically not like america. If ever been in an old city in europe that's basically it.
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 No.407373

>>406652
Malthusianism is one of those terms that gets turned into a buzzword because certain idiots think it's an "i win the argument" button.
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 No.407392

>>406931
>Most degrowth ideas revolve around a period of pruning back industrial production and complexity (NOT technology per se) after a future revolutionary transformation.
To be honest that is reason enough to reject it. Socialists want to change industrial production to make it compatible with the environment, but just for that change, you would need a big increase in industrial production because you need to build so many new machines to replace the old "dirty" machines. Scaling back production would mean austerity for the masses and less capacity for replacing dirty tech. That is what the neo-liberals want. Don't you find it a little sus that degrowth reaches the same conclusions as the neolibs and proposes virtually the same policies.
>>

 No.407393

I swear, this video belongs in the Smithsonian.
>>

 No.407397

>>407392
>Scaling back production would mean austerity for the masses and less capacity for replacing dirty tech

You're going to have to elaborate on this because I haven't seen any degrowers advocating austerity measures. They simply state we need to transition to a more localized and small-scale economy with things like community gardens, co-opts, credit unions and the like.
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 No.407404

>>407397
>I haven't seen any degrowers advocating austerity measures
woah woah woah buddy you actually read about the subject before commenting ??? take a look at this prick
>>

 No.407406

Malthusianism is just a meme by Dengist apologist and Productivists cucks
>Thought Slime argues that humans have gone too far. The problem isn’t that working people are increasingly impoverished due to capitalism’s inherent creation of poverty amidst plenty, the problem is that average working people have too much stuff. As American workers are seeing their wages go down, their homes foreclosed, and their children condemned to a life of student debt, the problem is that they are still too comfortable
This is directly from Maupin book.
Thought slime is a liberal piece of shit, but maupin here is being a retard too. He intends growth as something monolithic, a straight line, something that in a communist world and a capitalist world will look exactly the same, I understand trickle down economics and delocalization is something that should be criticized but by maupin standards even a critique of consumer society such as the ones Debord or Baudrillard made are malathusianism
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 No.407409

>>407406
>He intends growth as something monolithic, a straight line, something that in a communist world and a capitalist world will look exactly the same, I understand trickle down economics and delocalization is something that should be criticized but by maupin standards even a critique of consumer society such as the ones Debord or Baudrillard made are malathusianism
There's those fucking anarkiddie metaphysics again.
>>

 No.407416

>>407409
Don't call metaphysics everything you don't understand.
I didn't say anything complicated
>>

 No.407419

>>407416
You're still invoking metaphysics. How is it useful to the working class in any way for socialists to be discussing whether or not time and human society are linear?
>>

 No.407422

>>407419
What are you talking about?
I'm just saying that Growth in a communist society is very different than in a capitalist society.
There's nothing metaphysical about it.
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 No.407450

File: 1627497265892.mp4 ( 8.25 MB , 1280x720 , Caleb-thought-slime.mp4 )

>>407406
>>

 No.407463

>>403543
Am I the only one who actually likes it when Roo makes theory videos?

He should dedicate his channel to that from now on.
>>

 No.407483

>>407392
>Don't you find it a little sus that degrowth reaches the same conclusions as the neolibs and proposes virtually the same policies.
Don't you find it a little sus that ecomodernists reach the same conclusions as the other neolibs pushing advanced 'green' technology and surveillance capitalism as a solution to climate change?
https://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2019/01/17/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-political-economy-of-the-non-profit-industrial-complex/
>>

 No.407491

>>407483
I remember going through this entire article series a while back and feeling like I learned almost nothing of substance.

Cory Morningstar needs to learn how to write with brevity and get to the fucking point.
>>

 No.407493

>>407483
Greta Thunberg is the Billie Eilish of ecology: she appeals to boomers who fawn over the "defiant white girl" bullshit and appears home-grown when it's so blatantly obvious there's a huge machine behind her and people with serious money "made" her.
>>

 No.407535

>>407483
>Don't you find it a little sus that ecomodernists reach the same conclusions as the other neolibs pushing advanced 'green' technology
The neolibs are actively obstructing "green technology" like low carbon nuclear power plants. When they don't outright block tech they often only invest small token amounts in "cleaner" alternate tech. The neoliberals want to keep their current capital stock and just scale it down enough until it only produces a decent living for a small section of society at the top.
If you peal back all the layers of de-growth rhetoric, that is more or less what they are prescribing.
>and surveillance capitalism as a solution to climate change?
what ? Nobody is suggesting …. that doesn't even make sense as a premise, surveillance doesn't help with climate change.
>>

 No.407564

>>407450
Autism.
>>

 No.407567

>>403902
Why do third worldists make it seem as if third worlders are obsessed with racial and cultural purity?
>>

 No.407605

>>405256
There are stories from surviving children of friends being dragged out screaming during the night, never to return.
>>

 No.407611

>>406643
Revolution isn't revenge and you're stupid for thinking it is.
>>

 No.408283

Question: are the indigenous *really* advocates of de-growth and Malthusianism, or do they just want their treaties recognized and respected?
>>

 No.408295

>>405180
No one sees a burning church in Canada and thinks: "Hmmm, settlerism was a mistake, better dismantle the entire Canadian state."
>>

 No.408970

>>407535
Suggesting that preserving elements of capitalist development is more important than economic transformation is your first step towards abandoning socialism and becoming just another liberal.
There are certainly capitalists that obstruct green tech and prop up the old ways of fossil fuel extraction. But there is also a growing consensus of capitalists and their NGO allies who are eager to invest in renewable power, electric cars, carbon tax schemes, etc. This is not "solving climate change", it's the necessary evolution of global capital to ensure profitability as resources continue to dwindle, and the climate continues to warm.
It's ridiculous that you keep clinging to this strawman that the "neolibs" are somehow against expanding industrial production, while at the same time ignoring the billions of dollars being funneled towards Fourth Industrial Revolution-type green development schemes. Ecomodernism is such a revolutionary idea that's fighting power, just like BLM is challenging the system while being funded by every large corporation in the USA.
>>

 No.409479

ITT: settlers

What if I told you the indigenous have a right to resist regardless?
>>

 No.409480

>>409479
What if I told you your mother sucks big fat fucking elephant cocks?
>>

 No.409846

>>407346
Maoists are too. If you read On Contradiction you'll notice it's 90% metaphysics, despite Mao claiming to be against metaphysics.
>>

 No.410193

>>402872
Remember back in the early 2010s post-Occupy when libertarians were the ones pushing the degrowth bullshit?
>>

 No.410473

>>409479
Of course Year Zero is a decolonization bot.
>>

 No.411684

File: 1627683336672.png ( 41.98 KB , 612x792 , settler-trauma-pic.png )

>>

 No.411752

>>407369
Why do anarchists think spontaneity is something worth striving for? Usually, spontaneously-planned anything ends up a mess.
>>

 No.411795

How does everyone feel about paying land taxes to indigenous tribes as a way of recognizing whose land you’re on and bettering the lives of tribal peoples?
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 No.411872

File: 1627690148547.png ( 1.77 MB , 5100x2000 , 1626979563916-0.png )

The earth has existed for millions of years and has destroyed and repaired its environment millions of times over, extinction events are natural and have been occurring since life began on earth with famous ones being the extinctions that took place during the ice age and the ones after the meteor strike, its climate has been rising and dropping repeatedly for billions of years naturally, the deepest most destructive mine is in south africa and hasn't even crossed 0.1% of the earth's total depth, it's been documented that every single predictor for when the earth runs out of precious metals and oil has been proven wrong because more deposits keep being discovered because much of the planets resources are unused, to put it simply human effects on the environment simply are insignificant and dont matter in the short and long term, humanity can and should take over as many resources as they can along with having as many children as possible to outlive the natural dangers of the environment like droughts, diseases and natural disasters like earthquakes volcano eruptions tornadoes tsunamis etc. People that are environmentalists dont realize this and their anti human and industrial sentiment would make them eugenicists that dont understand how the natural world works on an empirically scientific level
>>

 No.411876

What if this time only bacteria survives?
>>

 No.411878

>>411876
Context on what your trying to ask first please
>>

 No.411909

For starters,what do you mean by
>human effects on the environment simply are insignificant and dont matter in the short and long term
insignificant for what,for who,and how ?
Also,while having a lot of children was the norm to deal with terrible situations for most species on earth,it didn't result in them surviving til now,so what makes you sure it will work out that way now ? or maybe you even mean something else by having a lot of children,like engineering some special survival oriented evolution ?
>>

 No.411912

>>411872
>humanity can and should take over as many resources as they can along with having as many children as possible to outlive the natural dangers of the environment

that's not how it works you absolute retard
>>

 No.411914

>>405106
>>405180
>>408295
My takeaway from this is, leftists need to stop LARPing like we're still in the 20th century. What worked to get the French out of Algeria in 1962 isn't going to work to win Native Americans their self-determination in 2021 because the conditions are entirely different.
>>

 No.411929

>>411872
Thanks for writing an indefinsible parody strawman of cornucopian ideology so I don't have to.
>>

 No.412688

>>405106
>So the biggest argument against the ultra-left MTWists and the "DECOLONIZE!" crowd is that they actually view the white working-class as colonizers who have a home to return to, and believe that with enough resistance and terror they can eventually drive them out.
No, you misunderstand. They don't believe the "colonizers" have anywhere else to go. MTW is a genocidal ideology.
>>

 No.412699

>>407369
Unless you're planning on warping the fabric of space time, the term you're probably thinking of is "non-rectilinear".
>>

 No.412708

Malthusianism, environmentalism has always been a bourgeois weapon against the attempts of the working class to improve its situation.
>>

 No.412721

>>412708
>Malthusianism, environmentalism has always been a bourgeois weapon against the attempts of the working class to improve its situation.
Based. SUPPORT COMRADE CHEVRON AGAINST STEVEN DONZIGER IMPERIALISM!
>>

 No.412741

>>408970
This. Capitalists are just fighting each other over new markets, taking sides is irrelevant if not counterproductive. Also, economic growth (as GDP growth) is an imperative of the capitalist economy, which can't sustain itself without. It's thereby a dogma among the ruling class, who tries to paint it green or sustainable or whatever to deal with the malcontents. Questioning a capitalist tenet such as growth can be a doorway toward a more materialist understanding of the world.
>>

 No.412866

>>412699
Rectilinear is architecture, i'm talking about urban planning and not aethetics
>>

 No.413243

>>412688
Exactly, which is why MTW is effectively useless and worthless.

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