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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1627258362827.jpeg ( 194.41 KB , 2000x2000 , 63a5139d-e581-4d7b-a2c2-8….jpeg )

 No.402040[Last 50 Posts]

>Planned economies could wor- oh…

What are your thoughts? Can Walmart's model be expanded to the economy of an entire nation? And further as the global economy?
>>

 No.402041

>>402040
Whoops I meant couldn't*
>>

 No.402047

Planned economy works only if there is competition / creative destruction between planned economic entities aka coroprations.
>>

 No.402050

>>402040
You aren't thinking dialectical
>>

 No.402061

>>402040
They're only socialist in the sense that they fulfill government interests in exchange for tax payer money, they still operate alot in the same way normal buissnesses do, looking for opportunity for profit above all else to satisfy investors each quarter
>>

 No.402070

>>402061
True. Planned economies historically has never worked.
>>

 No.402072

Marxist/Marxian economics is bunk, sorry lads. Take the postciv pill
>>

 No.402073

>>402047
You don't need corporations to achieve diversity in enterprise or make room for new innovations.
>>

 No.402078

File: 1627259895957.png ( 393.83 KB , 640x610 , tenor.png )

>Libertarians in the thread
>>

 No.402082

>>402061
Wrong their is no profit motive in a commonly owned planned economy. All surplus is used to be invested into the whole of the community. Their will be no surplus extraction only commonly own surplus to be used by all's benefit.
>>

 No.402083

what the fuck is the "Walmart model"?
>>

 No.402085

>>402083
Its an authoritarian crap corporations that's against proper free market economics.
>>

 No.402098

>>402082
Your thinking those major corporations cant just sell their fix and take over markets outside the west
>>402085
So tankieism but with a corporate texture pack?
>>

 No.402103

>>402098
Basically. Why do you think that so many people call corporations communist? It's because they implement communist plans from the top to ruin small businesses and turn the free market economy into an inefficient authoritarian planned communist economy.
>>

 No.402108

>>402103
Almost like capital has a tendency to concentrate or something.
>>

 No.402113

>>402103
>It's because they implement communist plans from the top to ruin small businesses and turn the free market economy into an inefficient authoritarian planned communist economy
<"It's not real capitalism guys!!!"
Never was and never has been anything resembling the fantasy that is fully "free market" economy. And don't try and wiggle out of the bed you've laid in by claiming its now actually communism.
>>

 No.402119

>>402113
What a bed of contradiction. You say it's not communism when giant corporations implement planned economies but at the same time all it capitalism yet it's still not a "free market" since according to you it's never existed.
>>

 No.402123

>>402040
Planned economies are 100% fully possible, ESPECIALLY as information technology improves. Hell, Egypt and the Inca had massive successful planned economies despite having nothing anywhere near our modern information technology. There's no reason then why a planned economy could not operate on a global level, ESPECIALLY with Wal-Mart and Amazon demonstrating incredible internal planning capabilities. The question we should be asking, rather, is how much of this fully-planned economy is possible to achieve in a fledgling revolutionary republic.
>>

 No.402125

>>402119
Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, with the accumulation of capital as wealth and growth this is what capitalism is. Capitalism isn't some abstract trait of the market.
>>

 No.402134

>>402125
Based on your stupid idea this means that the post office is communism. Like I said contradiction. You people cannot find any consistency nor a consistent coherent critique.
>>

 No.402141

>>402134
>post office is Communism.
Yes!
>>

 No.402152

>>402061
>Socialism is when a company lobbies the government for bailouts.
>>

 No.402166

File: 1627263077780.jpg ( 86.33 KB , 669x441 , censored_soviet_gdp_graph.jpg )

>>402047
>muh competition
>>402050
t. has never read Hegel
>>402061
t. thinks profit motive exists under socialism
>>402070
t. ignores decades of rapid soviet development
t. ignores capitalist planning schemes used by japan, south korea, singapore, prussian germany during their development
t. ignores capitalist wartime economies of USA and UK during WW2
>>402072
t. terminally online
>>402085
t. unironically believes the market is "free"
t. unironically uses the word authoritarian
>>402098
t. is so against muh tankies that he ends up a austrian school retard
>>402103
t. doesn't know what communism means
>>402134
t. thinks communism = state

What happened to this website?>
OP read Cockshott.
>>

 No.402173

The central question wasn't if planned economies work, but if solidaristic politics would "work". Economic planning was so essential that no national security state could function without it, and every attempt at privatization was a disaster if it followed the neoliberal rulebook religiously. But privatization was never anything more than controlled demolition, in which the public sector was demolished in a particular way that would hurt targeted populations.
The communist countries were not religiously opposed to using something like money, or planning in monetary terms, when it suited the needs of the plan. The point, however, was to be able to overcome the inherent difficulties of money, when you want to plan something that is actually useful.
This bizarre narrative that was drilled into us required people to take for granted that people are unthinking animals that can be cajoled by a ruling class, in ways difficult to fathom without modern propaganda and a vast impersonal state. In this view, capitalism "just happens" to exist without capitalists, banks, or any central locus of organization that would utilize wealth. It can only make sense if you create a world-system in which people are forbidden from acknowledging any center of power, and this is only possible with extreme mystification and indoctrination into that world view.

Anyway, there is a problem if you want to make a big gigantic central plan for the whole economy, USSR style; but the analysts at CIA knew quite well what Soviet planning meant, and that the system did provide mostly the things people wanted out of it. People weren't going to start a riot because their Ladas were shitty, and that wasn't even what prompted the reactionary element in Russia to rebel. It should also be noted that the thing arch-Porkies like to point to, computer technology, was only possible because the capitalist state pushed computerization HARD as part of its long-term project. The computer revolution was in no way profitable, and had to be pushed with incredible funding from the oligarchs. The oligarchs needed this computerization more than anyone, but ordinary people did not benefit so much until the computer was integrated into the world. Up until the 90s, most Americans didn't own a computer, because they were quite expensive and lacked too much utility. Computers were a higher-end good for the middle class, but the drive for computerization was most felt among the oligarchic firms for their business planning, and with the state for war planning. Anyway, what did capitalism do well? Home appliances? Cars? There are advantages to a profit-driven mechanism in a lot of consumer goods, but all of that is premised on a lot of consumers with money to spend on those goods. That consumer base was only built by deliberate planning and oligarchic capital being identified strongly with the state. "What's good for General Motors is good for America", that sort of thing. Then there was the considerably large state sector, paying for all the bureaucrats and technicians the state needed for its aims, and the elaborate ties between oligarchs and the American state. And then, that consumer economy in America was very meticulously planned to attain certain social engineering goals. Anyone denying this in 2020 is woefully unaware of American history and just what has been built. The only way such a view can be maintained is to again imagine a capitalism without capitalists, animated by spooky action, and to forbid any discussion of the social class system in play or the institutions at work. When you see something like the CIA's hand in mass culture, where the CIA controls the biggest music labels and what you watch on television to a quite large extent, you can't pretend it's all totally organic. There was a lot that was organic or at least just planned to make a buck off the latest craze, but over time the organic culture and American high culture was aggressively abolished, as the standard of discourse in neoliberalism was driven into the toilet and any discussion not amenable to eugenics was viciously attacked. Even high culture that was favorable to the American regime would be attacked, simply because it wasn't eugenic enough and didn't pander to the most base instincts as eugenics must always do.
>>

 No.402185

Anyway the central question in the USSR was that they wanted to maintain the spirit of the revolution in some form, that they wanted to retain some semblance of humanity in their project. Then, closer to the end, the intellectuals of that project looked at the broad picture and said "nah, fuck that, we should join the death cult". There were ordinary Russians who still believed, or at least wanted something that was functional, but the intellectual vanguard turned entirely against the people. The intellectuals came to hate the people with a fury difficult to fathom, and in turn, the people came to hate the intellectuals. The logic of eugenics ensured that the core alliance of socialism, workers and revolutionary intelligentsia, was completely untenable on a permanent basis, and this logic was never defeated - has not been defeated or even fought against in a serious way, because to fight against eugenics would have required the USSR to be willing to fight WW3.
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 No.402198

>>402134
There has never been and there will never be an actual, functioning free market. Stop being retard, ffs.

>>402166
>What happened to this website?
Pandemic.
>>

 No.402213

>>402198
>There has never been and there will never be an actual, functioning free market. Stop being retard, ffs.

Then what are you combatting or trying to dismantle? A bunch of your comrades can't even agree on what the market or free market is, nor can they agree what a planned economy is.
>>

 No.402223

>>402166
>t. ignores decades of rapid soviet development
>t. ignores capitalist planning schemes used by japan, south korea, singapore, prussian germany during their development
>t. ignores capitalist wartime economies of USA and UK during WW2

Your comrades say none of that is socialism except for the Soviet Union. I'm beginning to think this Marxism crap is just a big troll that leads people to nonsense like this instead of a strong theory with facts to back it. There are so many disagreements and inconsistency that you people can't even explain what socialism is so I have to define it for you based on what it's historically been.
>>

 No.402233

File: 1627264887213.mp4 ( 1.34 MB , 1280x720 , socialism4dumbos.mp4 )

>>402223
Just for you.
>>

 No.402234

>>402223
Believe it or not, dear retard, but markets are possible under socialism and planning is possible under capitalism. Obviously on this website, we advocate for socialist planning (although some are partial to socialist markets as well).

The USA obviously planned during WW2. Was it suddenly socialist? No, it wasn't.

Usually, socialist societies use plans and capitalist societies use markets. But only usually. This means there are exceptions. Perhaps nuance is too much for your peanut brain to handle, seeing as you >>402213 need to be spoonfed exact definitions.
>>

 No.402235

>>402233
someone should post the marx webm version pls.
>>

 No.402240

>>402234
Furthermore, markets have existed long before capitalism appeared. They are not synonymous. Are you a retard who believes Ancient Greece was capitalist because merchants bought and sold goods?
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 No.402241

File: 1627265189562-1.png ( 345.67 KB , 2048x580 , Circuit.png )

File: 1627265189562-2.png ( 102.05 KB , 1222x866 , harvey-flow-graph.png )

>>402119
>What a bed of contradiction. You say it's not communism when giant corporations implement planned economies but at the same time all it capitalism yet it's still not a "free market" since according to you it's never existed.
The economy itself isn't planned, its the internal production and distribution that is. Capitalism isn't defined by being a "free market" as well, it's defined by its fundamental mechanisms.
>>402134
>Based on your stupid idea this means that the post office is communism. Like I said contradiction. You people cannot find any consistency nor a consistent coherent critique.
No, the post office is not communism. Understand the difference between an federal service and the actual economic system itself.
>>402213
>Then what are you combatting or trying to dismantle? A bunch of your comrades can't even agree on what the market or free market is, nor can they agree what a planned economy is
Capitalism, which we don't define as the "free market" like you do. Capitalists have always made use of the state (as the state itself is a tool of class rule) and have always colluded to remove competition as capitalism trends towards monopoly, so when we say the "free market" is a myth, we are referring to the fact that it's not this mythology in which people engage in equitable unrestricted competition. Capitalism itself isn't defined by the degree of competition however, but the actual realtions to production and the mechanisms which lay at the heart of it.
>>

 No.402247

>>402234
Let me point to you what your fellow comrades are saying. I’m not the one you should be arguing with.
>>402047
>>402061
>>402098
They all say that planned economies cannot exist in capitalism and are not socialism. My argument is that planned economies in capitalist countries like Walmart is infecting all economies with their inefficient planning systems and all should be left to the market. And even so their planning system couldn’t exist without the price indicators that could only be measured through the market. Corporations and crony capitalism is only when big corporations implement communist plans from the top in order to try and control the market and force their price fixing on other businesses, which usually undermines other business.
>>

 No.402249

>>402240
Not to mention, planning also preceeds socialism. Palace economies were also planned, such as in the Ancient Near East or in parts of pre-Colombian Americas.
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 No.402260

>>402247
The first poster >>402047 doesn't even sound socialist.

The second poster >>402061 simply states that capitalist planning for profit and socialist planning for usefulness have different goals.

>>402098 uses the word tankie so I have no reason to believe he is a socialist either.

You are arguing against a boogeyman. You post on this site but are not Marxist. Perhaps your peanut brain should understand that similarly, other posters here might also not be Marxists. You aren't the only rightoid to have visited.
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 No.402262

>>402241
>Capitalism itself isn't defined by the degree of competition however, but the actual realtions to production and the mechanisms which lay at the heart of it.

Okay I see a big problem here. If you say it’s the relations of production then those still existed in “socialism”. This means socialism has never existed because those relations of production still existed, the only difference being that the government in “socialist” countries hired people and not private businesses, essentially meaning that socialism is literally just the government doing more stuff. Which as we have seen only benefit big corporations.
>>

 No.402265

>>402213
>>402223
You really need to lurk moar, then maybe you'll see the object of your religion is seldom-almost-never mentioned in any thread that is devoid of lolberts.

Read anything that isn't regurgitated by a think-thank in the meantime.
>>

 No.402266

>>402247
If planning is so inefficient, why do all the major corporations use it?

If your answer is "because they control the government to bully petit-bourgeoids", then congratulations: You figured out what Marx said 150 years ago.

Capital has a tendency to monopolize. Your romantic vision of free capitalism where "the best man wins fair and square" has never existed and never will. You are living a lie.
>>

 No.402273

>>402260
So your answer to those posters is that “they aren’t real socialists”. You see how absurd this is? I know the game here which is “I’m more socialister than you” which just seems to me like a pointless crap about a people who cannot agree on one simple that to have a useful discussion on.

How can I make a point when this socialist says this other guy is not socialist and this other guy says the same about this guy and so on and so on?
>>

 No.402275

>>402262
The USSR did not base its internal economy off the profit motive, but off the utility motive. This alone is a huge difference to capitalism, where it is believed that the pursuit of profits will help society on its own.
>>

 No.402279

>>402273
How can you be sure the other poster is not a rightoid like you? Do you think you are the only lolbert here? Where did they claim they are socialist? Are you his mom? Do you know him personally?
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 No.402282

>>402266
>If planning is so inefficient, why do all the major corporations use it?

Like I said, your comrades in this thread disagree with you that corporations are using planned economies. So is the socialist question a question of who benefits from a planned economy? Because of Walmart is a planned economy and so is Amazon as that book showed, then them socialist question is about everyday people benefiting from the planned economy. It follows that if most economies are planned today then we already live in socialism and that the question is more about distribution in this socialist economy.
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 No.402283

>>402262
Literally all systems have different people having different relationships to productive forces. That’s what class society is. In Capitalism it’s a whole group of people are involved in the usage of productive forces to create and distribute a commodity, but those productive forces are owned by a separate entity who by necessity sustains themselves by expropriating a portion of the value created by the productive forces and compels the rest of the people to create things for the purpose of exchange for money rather than their direct consumption.
>>

 No.402287

>>402275
Profit did exist in the USSR and even starting from 1936 more business firms implemented a system of planned profit and profit in excess.
>>

 No.402288

>>402282
Corprations aren’t planned economies, numbnuts, they use economic planning. And the people you cite as “our comrades” don’t sound like they’re even socialists to begin with
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 No.402290

>>402279
Semantics.
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 No.402294

File: 1627266383411.jpg ( 33.35 KB , 750x725 , 1620158889021.jpg )

>>402287
>Profit existed in the USSR
>>

 No.402295

>planning = socialism
<not planning = capitalism
Big brain time.
>>

 No.402296

Anyone got the actual pdf of OPs book?
>>

 No.402298

>>402103
>It's not capitalism when I don't like it
>>

 No.402299

>>402282
1. For all I know, you could be samefagging. Why should I care what retards here say? I base my knowlege off actual socialist theory, aka BOOKS, something you should spend time with.

2. As I have stated for your monkey brain, planning =/= socialism, markets =/= capitalism. See here:
>>402234 and here >>402240 and here >>402249

3. I can use a gun to kill you, or to hunt for animals. I can plan an economy for maximum "shareholder value", or to achieve usefulness for the common people. Is this really so hard to grasp, dear retard?
>>

 No.402300

>>402288
Did you seriously just say economic planning is different from planned economies? You literally just switched the wording and said it’s something qualitatively different. That is some of the stupidest things I have ever seen.
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 No.402302

>>402287
Profits in a functional sense did not exist internally beyond the petit bourgeois and peasants that were allowed to keep their shitty little businesses.
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 No.402304

>>402283
Okay so what is socialism to you? Or what is agreeable in your own interpretation for the things that would make up a socialist society.
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 No.402305

>>402300
The USA planned during WW2 and fixed prices. It used economic planning. But to call the USA a planned economic wholesale would be an exaggeration.

Are you fucking retarded? Does any semblance of nuance kill off your brain?
>>

 No.402306

>>402290
It's called logic my man.
>>

 No.402312

>>402294
I read one of your own such as Bordiga, and I look forward to seeing the people triggered by this. There’s this other chick named Rana, another Marxist who looked into the Soviet economic system. If you will disregard them then I cannot trust your view because it becomes useless because you don’t want your political fee fees hurt.
>>

 No.402313

>>402300
Are you ESL? Should I be speaking in russian to you? They calculate demand and adjust production and distribution of products and services accordingly. The difference is that it’s a chaotic process of a bunch of separate firms struggling against one another to capture the most value from consumers without centrally coordinating with one another to assure efficient production and the satisfaction of need. You wanna know what happens to a company when you implement Atlass Shrugged to its internal production? Look at Sears.
>>

 No.402316

>>402312
>Bordiga
You can’t be serious. You’re citing a leftcom who argued that stalin wasn’t stalinist enough?

Jesus christ, the Armchairs did it again. Even the anarchists and Yugoslavs actually implemented some project or another.
>>

 No.402317

>>402299
An economy to help “common people” which is the claim of communism yes? Okay so if we already are living in a time of planned economies then the question is a question about distribution. But others are saying that that is wrong. I have heard that saying “socialism for the rich”. So essentially we aren’t wrong when we say we live in socialism.
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 No.402318

>>402304
1. Workers own means of production, if necessary through the representation of the state.

2. Production for the goal of maximizing utility, not for maximizing profit.

3. Lowering labor hours is valued over lowering capital expenses, i.e. automation is seen favorably.

4. Beginning/preparing the transitioning into a moneyless, classless, stateless society.

5. Banks are state owned.

6. No profiting off internal consumer economy.

7. Transitioning into the abolition of private property.
>>

 No.402321

>>402304
Communism is that which abolishes the present state of things. Socialism’s not some ideal you put into practice.
>>

 No.402323

>>402321
This reeks of Dengoidism. Marx wrote an entire manifesto describing socialism/communism. You can read it instead of taking a quote out of context.
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 No.402328

>>402305
It seems like you lack any common sense when you say economic planning is different from planned economy. A lil switcheroo changes the definition somehow. Both are planned. And “wholesale planning” some of your comrades here say that a single firm that itself plans its own economy is somehow not a planned economy. It’s a hilarious contradiction.
>>

 No.402329

>>402302
No larger firms definitely had profits.
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 No.402331

>>402317
In Marxist-Leninist terminology, communism is a moneyless, classless society where the state has withered away and is organized economically to the principle of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs".

Socialism is the transitional stage in between capitalism and communism. It bears the birthmarks of capitalism. The more primitive socialism is, the more it resembles capitalism. The more advanced it is, the more it resembles communism. This list shows some major goals that have to be tackled during this transitional stage: >>402318
>>

 No.402332

>>402323
Has SWCC Bypassed the contradictions in Capitalism, like the Falling Rate of Profit or the prospect of cyclical, increasingly destructive crises? If not, then fuck off.
>>

 No.402335

>>402332
It hasn't, and it can't. I assumed you were a Dengoid, since they love that quote.
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 No.402336

File: 1627267342895.png ( 59.57 KB , 860x650 , Hello where is the proofs .png )

>>

 No.402337

>>402323
How though? Neither Engels or Marx argued that socialism was something that would be achieved over night, no Marxist does, hell, not even most anarchists would argue that you would achieve instantaneous socialism.

You can argue that China has done little to move towards a stateless, classless, moneyless society, but to argue that Marx or Engels suggested otherwise to your argument is false.
>>

 No.402340

>>402316
There it is. “Not real socialism”, they’re lying, it’s all a lie. There is no real information, just abstract shit that we choose to believe because everything else is fake news. You don’t think I read sources from the USSR itself and as well as outside sources? I’ve read that shit where they said that the Soviets were a collective leadership and to true it was, but it also had profits, like how they exist in the west. Only difference was that in the Soviets the government owned a lot more firms.
>>

 No.402341

>>402337
I explicitly said socialism is a transition my man: >>402331 >>402318
>>

 No.402342

>>402313
Right and if you read that book Walmart is literally centrally planned.
>>

 No.402346

>>402342
Every corporation planning for themselves with the intent of maximizing profit =/= economy owned and planned by a single entity with the intent of reaching political and social goals
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 No.402349

>>402321
>>402323
Check this out, your “comrades” totally agreeing on the same thing

Fuck outta here lol, you people are funny as fuck, especially when y’all forgo any sensible scientific research for this dumbass sectarian crap that confuses people. It’s no wonder communism hasn’t taken off because of this stupid shit. At least someone like Richard Wolff can explain shit, except people here will call him a “socdem” or whatever the fuck that means.
>>

 No.402351

>>402335
I hate liberal corpsefuckers who talk about socialism or communism as an “ideal”, “utopia”, or “theory” and try to shoot down castles in the sky or refute the “idea” of socialism as some abstract thing, when it’s fundamentally just expropriating the expropriators and making productive forces public property used and maintained for public benefit. If you want to use central planning, which I personally prefer, then go for it. If the circumstances better suit a market economy, but with state/community owned enterprises and even workers’ co-ops, then that’ll do as well. The point is to overcome the contradictions of capitalism to create a new social and economic system.
>>

 No.402352

>>402349
People can have disagreements. Isn't this what you want, lolbert? A free marketplace of ideas? Where the best opinion wins?
>>

 No.402353

>>402331
Some people here will tell you that you’re wrong and call you Dengoid or some shit which is hilarious. You sure you wanna play this game? Your definition of socialism being what you say it is seem like your own personal interpretation vs everyone else who can’t agree on shit.
>>

 No.402355

>>402346
So socialism is when an economy is planned by a single entity? Is that what Marx said?
>>

 No.402356

>>402353
Basically all of these are from Marx and Lenin. None of the things I wrote in that list are controversial amongst Marxist-Leninists.
>>

 No.402357

>>402340
>complaining about purists who offer critiques of AES based upon not reflecting theory enough without proffering any viable alternatives
Sounds a lot like me saying “not real socialism”.
>>

 No.402359

>>402351
I can’t wait till the people respond to you by calling you a Dengist and productive forces and shit.
>>

 No.402360

>>402352
Disagreements are fine but it’s hilarious when you “experts” cannot give a good answer to simple questions.
>>

 No.402362

>>402341
So what are you saying that socialism must check these boxes in order for it to be socialism? I just want to be clear, do you consider the dictatorship of the proleteriat to be socialism?
>>

 No.402364

>>402355
You need to learn what nuance means and think dialectically.

Marx writes little about socialism, but planning does play a role (see Critique of the Gotha Program, Communist Manifesto). Lenin expands upon this.

Whether it is a single plan or many decentralized plans doesn't matter as long as it does not follow the profit motive, aims to abolish private property and class society and money.
>>

 No.402366

>>402356
I don’t know, I’ve seen a bunch of “Marxist-Leninists” call each other liberals or Dengists or socdems.
>>

 No.402367

>>402362
Of course the DOTP is (early) socialism. What the fuck is your problem dawg?
>>

 No.402372

>>402351
Yes, but history has shown us that too many markets result in capital monopoloization, see Yugoslavia, see current-day China. It is a useful tool especially early on in the transition, but once the process comes far enough, markets just become dead weight (major exception being consumer goods).
>>

 No.402373

>>402357
So according to you your “AES” cannot be subject to criticism in anyway because any criticism for any reason is wrong. And this ain’t no criticism from other capitalists but other socialists. My favorite ones to read are socialists because it is more revealing than reading from anti-communist sources. Reading the enemy is more interesting than pure propaganda.
>>

 No.402375

File: 1627268357463-0.png ( 229.84 KB , 1630x591 , DOTP isn't socialism1.png )

File: 1627268357463-1.png ( 130.63 KB , 1651x489 , DOTP isn't socialism2.png )

File: 1627268357463-2.png ( 101.69 KB , 1667x264 , DOTP isn't socialism3.png )

File: 1627268357463-3.png ( 58.19 KB , 1653x144 , DOTP isn't socialism4.png )

>>402367
A DOTP isn't socialism in it of itself. The DOTP is a transition from capitalism INTO socialism. Please, read lenin.
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 No.402377

>>402364
So the profit motive is the only thing, got it. Lmao fucking hell.
>>

 No.402379

>>402366
Dengoids are a special branch of retards and don't really exist in real life organizations. The Chinese themselves are not Dengoids like the Western hyperonline leftists are, it's a meme ideology. Chinese are, for now, predominantly just your run of the mill left-developmentalists that have existed in many countries before. But that is a different discussion.
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 No.402380

>>402359
I don’t give a fuck. The problem isn’t China trying to do a Singapore or whatever, although, I still haven’t heard from any dengoid on how the PRC avoids the Contradictions in Capitalism, how the proletariats’ interests are being secured or how the State uses the revenue made by their enterprises to provide for the human services and welfare for the population. It’s their weak-ass support of international socialists and Anti-Imperialist forces. Because it ain’t profitable for them. Fuck, even if they tried to foster similar Socialist Market Economies around the world with a DotP in charge of their allied governments, that’d do SOMETHING to push the dialectic forward. But any of that would be bad for business.
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 No.402384

The original point of the post was that a planned economy can work and work excellently well and Walmart was proof of this and that it could be expanded to all of society. Now you have everyone disagreeing on what socialism or planned economy is, I fucking love it.
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 No.402385

File: 1627268504005-0.png ( 51.96 KB , 1692x137 , DOTP is transition from st….png )

File: 1627268504005-1.png ( 86.83 KB , 1643x216 , DOTP isn't socialism 5.png )

>>402375
To add
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 No.402386

>>402372
This I don’t dispute. But I won't begrudge fellow travelers for being wrong, provided our interests are fundamentally aligned.
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 No.402390

>>402375
A state using the DOTP is a socialist one, even if its economy hasn't reached a mature socialist mode of production yet. This is a very unnecessary definitional wordplay you are doing. Why bother right now while the lolbert is here?
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 No.402392

>>402379
You sound just as much of a terminally online idiot by saying what you just said. You probably don’t even know what left developmentalism is. It just sounds like another schizo meme shit. China is socialist, I think we can accept that at face value as well as in content.
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 No.402393

>>402047
>competition
You literally haven’t read the book OP posted which directly addressed this. There’s multiple instances of libertarians and randtards that got the reign of corporate entities. The result has always been completely disastrous for the performance of the corporation. These incompetent idealists had different departments competed against each other, the result was that it fostered a hugely hostile working environment that get nothing done other than tanking the company’s profits.

Competition in planning ruins corporation and the system in general.
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 No.402394

>>402392
China does not have a socialist economy. Why would it need to transition into socialism starting in 2050 if this was the case? It is a capitalist economy being guided by a party.
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 No.402395

>>402380
You’re talking about pure abstract concepts and not concrete stuff, and this is because your experience is only in the books and not in practice.
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 No.402397

>>402395
The Dengoid has logged on
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 No.402399

>>402394
It is a mixed economy with a socialist political head. A mixed economy with purpose.
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 No.402401

>>402373
Literally, can you not read? Particularly the part of “not having any better alternative?”

This is why I can’t take debatebro walking abortions like you seriously, because you can’t help but posturing with all of your replies. AES not immune from criticism, particularly at the internal level, but hardly anyone would suffer people who call any attempt to do anything, warts and all, “not real socialists” or “opportunists” because it didn’t live up to some archetype they had in their head.

How, pray tell, does Bordiga find a profit motive in the USSR and similar states?
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 No.402406

>>402390
Just ignore the businesscuck dipshit. We don’t even share a common language with him, or at least a common lexicon and basic understandings.
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 No.402407

>>402397
Nope. You are talking about abstractions. Go to China, join the communist party, throw your shit around and see what happens. They’ll tell you, okay how do you plan to achieve this shit without it backfiring? Have you as a single person planned for all unseen scenarios once we haphazardly just start this shit at random? You won’t be throwing around DOTP without it meaning something abstract. The question isn’t what some abstract phrase means but what it means in practice, what does a DOTP mean in practice, that’s the wall you’ll hit and have to answer for. You couldn’t because your brain lives in theory and not in practice.
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 No.402409

>>402399
China is a capitalist economy with a strong state sector (the main speciality being that finance is controlled by the state). This isn't even controversial, read any issue of Qiushi and they will say the same. The only difference to other state capitalists is that a red party is at helms, that banking is state-controlled and that the rulers make vague allusions to "transitions" in 2050/2078.
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 No.402411

>>402384
This is a given assumption we all share. But raider fuckery and shitflinging is pretty entertaininf, so let us have our fun. Hell, we might even learn something from this target dummy, or at least get good rhetorical practice.
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 No.402413

>>402407
Stop this embarrassing and hysteric LARP.
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 No.402420

>>402401
Empirical evidence. You think he just didn’t try to gather information? Also Bordiga didn’t actively try to CIA Stalin or the Soviets. He was only a socialist looking to critique the Soviets. And he wasn’t the only one who did so from a real educational reason. You practice self censor which is funny, I try to read as much shit as possible, including internal sources.
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 No.402422

>>402409
That being said China has politicians who overrule the bourgeois and not vice versa as most other capitalist economies do, although Putin for example also overrules his oligarchs, so this alone doesn't show us socialism, even if it is useful for the commoner to have politicians on your side doing long-term thinking rather than the short-term lizard brain thinking that capitalists prefer (see: coronavirus response in China and in the West)
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 No.402425

>>402413
How is it a LARP that China is here and the Soviet Union isn’t?
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 No.402427

>>402409
In China socialism just means state ownership. This means that fucking China went from socialist country to capitalist one then it’s going back to socialist country in 2050. So socialism is just state ownership and that’s it.
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 No.402429

>>402407
Lemme go back to my post >>402380
>Securing Proletarian Interests (Worker Protections, Arbitration, participation in decision-making/management, etc.)
>Providing Basic Human Services (Healthcare, Education, Housing, Infrastructure, Cost of Living, Development etc.) using its economic system and policy
The above existed in the Warsaw Pact AFAIK. I see no reason why China can’t do the same
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 No.402436

>>402420
>Empirical Evidence
Well, we’re waiting.
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 No.402447

Anyways Walmart is proof that communism can work and planned economies can work, no need for price indicators like Hayek said. Walmart even tried to switch out of economic planning and led to massive problems, so planning is here to stay. Preferably Walmart becomes the model for all business firms and can provide us with the full transition to a fully rationally planned economy. Walmart and Amazon are planned economy bulwarks. Our job now is to politically push for a making Walmart and Amazon public firms for all of our society to transition to a self managed planned economy. That’s my closing statement for the thread. Anyone who has something to say about my conclusions are most likely porkies or libertarians.
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 No.402451

>>402425
Russia still exists, the China of now isn't the China of old. This doesn't matter. Both the Soviet and the Chinese projects have failed. The Russians stopped trying, the Chinese took a conscious step back to develop their capitalist base first before, allegedly, trying another attempt by 2050.
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 No.402452

>>402436
I don’t have all the Soviet files to go through, Bordiga did. Are you insane?
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 No.402455

>>402451
Okay ultra.
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 No.402458

>>402447
You were doing well until that last sentence. What kind of brainworms is that? Of course they provide us a toy model or a conception of how we can make a planned economy, but saying to “nationalize walmart/amazon” is how you get westerners sucking Deng’s dead cock.
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 No.402459

>>402455
What's ultra about it you insane Dengoid? It's the CPC line that they did a tactical retreat so they can first build "productive forces". What the fuck is wrong with you? Lmfao
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 No.402461

>>402452
You don’t remember a single thing Bordiga said or a single statistic, however anecdotal, that the armchair asshole brought up? Come on, this is weak.
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 No.402474

>>402458
If you’re this obsessed with Deng you must want to suck his cock if he’s living in your head rent free.
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 No.402477

>>402459
Because everything you don’t like is Deng so yeah you’re an ultra.
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 No.402483

>>402474
If I let Deng live rent free in my head, it’d do a hell of a lot more for the decommodification of housing than the PRC has ever done.
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 No.402484

>>402461
Like I said Bordiga is only 1 among multiple things I’ve read on the economy of the Soviet Union.
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 No.402488

>>402477
The Deng position is that China wasn't ready for a socialist mode of production yet so they must engage in capitalism in order to build the productive forces necessary to later implement socialism. This is NOT up to discussion, this is quite literally what Deng and the subsequent leaders have said.
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 No.402497

>>402488
But China was already full communism during the cultural revolution.
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 No.402499

>>402497
1. No it wasn't, not even Mao claimed that.
2. China moved past the Mao system many decades ago.
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 No.402506

>>402484
But you can’t produce a single detail about what was said? Are you brain damaged, do you have memory problems?
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 No.402514

>>402349
>lolbert defending Richard Wolff
You're in the right path, come back in a few years and we'll have a proper debate.
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 No.402521

>>402499
Nah it was definitely full communism
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 No.402523

>>402506
Profits existed in the USSR.
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 No.402525

>>402521
No it wasn't. You're just baiting now.
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 No.402532

>>402523
Can you prove it?
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 No.402543

>>402514
I learned about him through this meme I found on the booru. He doesn't seem that bad actually
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 No.402685

>>402287
>>402294
>>402312
The USSR up until the Kosgyin reform easily passed the Anti-duhring test definition of a socialist economy as proposed by engels.

The USSR's economy on account of being 99.9% composed of state owned enterprises and workers cooperatives that were taxed at 100% (soviet turnover tax) with material excess from the enterprises being reinvested into the economy and nil capital accumulation.
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 No.403114

>>402166
sauce for graph?
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 No.403217

File: 1627310344074.gif ( 129.39 KB , 680x315 , 070.gif )

>>402098
>tankieism
>texture pack

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