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File: 1627238300574.gif ( 1.99 MB , 330x275 , 1623839815297.gif )

 No.401291[Last 50 Posts]

What is the real death toll of socialism?
This post is a test to reveal that /leftypol/acks are actually existing tankies, no better than /pol/ in being honest about their idealism. I hope that some of you can prove me wrong. It should go without saying, but every civilisation and ideology has resulted in atrocities and if you're incapable of admitting those of your own (without comforting stipulations like "b-but they deserved it!!1!") then you're living in a spooked fucking fantasy world.
>>

 No.401294

not enough
>>

 No.401297

who cares
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 No.401303

Literally zero. Kulaks aren’t people. Communism is for the children
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 No.401338

>>401294
you must be 18 or over to post here
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 No.401348

At least more than 2/3's or half the 100 million number. A drop in the bucket to capital's ocean's of blood!
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 No.401349

117 Billion
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 No.401350

>>401291
Nice try /pol/cel
>>

 No.401354

>>401303
Based.
>>

 No.401356

Socalisms death toll is negative. Around minus 250-500 milllion. As it enabled more births and prevented far more death than it killed people
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 No.401357

>>401348
Somewhere between 20-50 million depending on how much you fight on events they use. That's what I was saying here. Like I said absolutely a drop in the bucket.
>>

 No.401362

>>401356
But they had less consumer products then the imperialist West. Sure they had better lives then most of 3rd world capitalism but will ignore that.
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 No.401375

>>401350
Pure cope
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 No.401378

>>401291
Depends what counts as "death from socialism". But if you apply the same method to capitalism and socialism, usually capitalism kills more. But of course capitalists apologists will say "nu-uh thoses deaths under capitalism doesn't count because capitalism doesn't kill people so it doesn't count"
>>

 No.401380

>>401291
>being honest about their idealism
You don't really know what this word means, do you?
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 No.401381

File: 1627240524153.png ( 139 KB , 1023x768 , wrxTyGF.png )

>>401291
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 No.401395

>muh gorillions
>>

 No.401423

>>401291
your mom, oh wait it's a fucking spook isn't.
>>

 No.401424

Reminder that the "black book of gommunism :DDDDD" literally counts abortions and "no nates" (as in, people who died in a communist country didn't get to have sons, thus those non-existant sons, cause of not existing, ARE victims of gommunism)
>>

 No.401431

>>401291
Not nearly enough & miniscule compared to liberal capitalism.
>>

 No.401432

>>401381
Killing the right people is a good thing.
>>

 No.401437

>>401291
We should have killed every single reactionary, including Gorby and Deng.
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 No.401442

File: 1627242405442.jpg ( 29.71 KB , 500x500 , 6ab.jpg )

>>401291
>Condemning idealism yet you think ideas kill people.
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 No.401482

>muh tankies
finish puberty
>>

 No.402442

>>401291
There is no "death toll" of socialism. Socialism, unlike capitalism, doesn't inherently result in people dying.
Nobody in their right mind says that nobody died during the building of socialism, but these deaths were caused by the failures or wrongdoings of states, organizations etc., not by socialism itself.
>>

 No.402466

>>401291
I have yet to see a source justifying the "100 gorillion" that isn't that one retarded book. If the only evidence for the Holocaust was a single book then /pol/ would have a point, but you're obviously drawing a false equivalence.
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 No.402492

>/leftypol/acks are actually existing tankies, no better than /pol/ in being honest about their idealism
Stating facts makes you a tankie, not making up imaginary death counts makes you a tankie, not manipulating numbers makes you a tankie.
>>

 No.402505

File: 1627270535638.jpeg ( 6.68 KB , 227x222 , squidward.jpeg )

>>401291
>OP after making the thread and having nothing to respond with
>>

 No.402509

>>402505
More like OP immediately after making the thread.
Literally just a shitpost thread for baits.
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 No.402513

>>401303
Truth.
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 No.402747

File: 1627276545304.mp4 ( 8.36 MB , 854x480 , Stalin Did Nothing Wrong_ ….mp4 )

>>401291
>Muh tankies
>Muh red fascism
<Hurr prove me wrong
Y'know there are entire books discussing the realities of why Socialism and Revolution are never completely clean and free of blood or possible innocent victims, but it boils down to humans being imperfect beings that are individuals and not just single-minded automatons following protocols.

The USSR and other "tankie" stuff had its problems, but I will not discuss them with the likes of you - you do not collect 100, you do not get discussion, go straight to Gulag.
>>

 No.403197

>>402509
>>402505
Sorry for not responding sooner.

>>401348
>>401357
How do you come to these numbers?

>>401378
>Depends what counts as "death from socialism"
I agree. I was hoping you could provide me with such a definition.
>if you apply the same method to capitalism and socialism, usually capitalism kills more
This makes sense, but mostly because capitalism is more widespread and has existed for longer. Let's say we use a per capita death toll, will the deaths still be higher?
>But of course capitalists apologists will say "nu-uh thoses deaths under capitalism doesn't count because capitalism doesn't kill people so it doesn't count"
Indeed, this is an unfair trick. For socialism, it's quite clear that economic decisions are also political decisions, whereas for most instances of capitalism the two decisions are portrayed as separate from one another.

>>401395
>>401424
>>402466
If you are accusing me of supporting the most common death counts as constructed by propagandists, then you're being completely unfair to me. I don't claim to know what the real death toll of socialism is, only that it exists.

>>401442
Ideas - ideologies in particular - certainly are used to justify and sustain the material act of killing. Ideas are not responsible for killing people (and I never claimed such a thing), but they can facilitate killing.

>>401482
>>402492
Regardless of whether or not the term "tankie" is unfairly misused by opponents of socialism, I believe the term does accurately describe those who are unwilling to admit any significant faults of the socialist system which emerged in the USSR, and instead praise its faults as if they were achievements. You can see some of that sentiment in this thread, """ironic""" or otherwise.

>>402747
>>Muh tankies
See the above response.
>>Muh red fascism
><Hurr prove me wrong
Nice strawman.
>Y'know there are entire books discussing the realities of why Socialism and Revolution are never completely clean and free of blood or possible innocent victims, but it boils down to humans being imperfect beings that are individuals and not just single-minded automatons following protocols.
I agree.
>The USSR and other "tankie" stuff had its problems, but I will not discuss them with the likes of you - you do not collect 100, you do not get discussion, go straight to Gulag.
Cope, seethe, dilate and have sex.
>>

 No.403199

>>403197
I'll get you my response this afternoon after work for
>>401348
>>401357
>>

 No.403200

>>403199
Awesome, thank you comrade.
>>

 No.403237

>>403197
>Regardless of whether or not the term "tankie" is unfairly misused by opponents of socialism, I believe the term does accurately describe those who are unwilling to admit any significant faults of the socialist system which emerged in the USSR, and instead praise its faults as if they were achievements. You can see some of that sentiment in this thread, """ironic""" or otherwise.
Any ML worth his salt has a lot of criticism of USSR, different criticism depending on the time frame even. It's not our "unwillingness to adimt" is that when asked about those specific faults the only thing you can tell is regurgitate some schizo liberal dribble about millions dead or Stalin being a cartoon villain, absolutely incompetent and pathetic and at the same time ruthless and efficient.

Stop trying to pretend you are here to discuss anything on good faith.
>>

 No.403242

>>403237
>Any ML worth his salt has a lot of criticism of USSR
I agree. Marxist-Leninists are not tankies.
Are you an ML? If so, since you must have the capacity to be critical of the USSR, can you give me an accurate death toll for socialism?
>the only thing you can tell is regurgitate some schizo liberal dribble about millions dead or Stalin being a cartoon villain, absolutely incompetent and pathetic and at the same time ruthless and efficient.
Show me where I said, implied, or even hinted at such a thing.
>Stop trying to pretend you are here to discuss anything on good faith.
Alternatively, you should admit that you desperately want me to be a /pol/ack or troll so that you can escape answering my question and addressing my central point.
>>

 No.403247

>>403242
>I agree. Marxist-Leninists are not tankies.
That's what libs like you are calling us anyway.
>Are you an ML? If so, since you must have the capacity to be critical of the USSR, can you give me an accurate death toll for socialism?
I can't because things like that are impossible to calculate since it is a very vague term. Who exactly counts as being a death toll?
>Show me where I said, implied, or even hinted at such a thing.
You can show me that you are arguing in a good faith if you try to show me what do you think were faults of USSR.
>Alternatively, you should admit that you desperately want me to be a /pol/ack or troll so that you can escape answering my question and addressing my central point.
You have none. You just asked vague loaded question. This looks like weak bait. Like i said, if you show that you are arguing in a good faith, then answer my question and we will continue this discussion.
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 No.403248

>>401291
at least 6 (including OP)
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 No.403255

File: 1627312690310.png ( 2.87 MB , 2000x1320 , USSR death rates Stalin.png )

>>403197
>Nice strawman
That's what the OP is, provocateur, don't pretend otherwise.
>Muh atrocities exist everywhere
<Don't deny the death toll!
This shows that you've clearly never seen pic related or any other discussion debunking Gorillions.
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 No.403256

File: 1627312699701.mp4 ( 3.95 MB , 640x360 , How many people has Commun….mp4 )

>>

 No.403260

>What is the real death toll of socialism?
Billions and billions of brain cells.
>>

 No.403264

>>401291
Those that were killed were reactionaries thus not human.

The real death toll of socialism is 0 (zero).
>>

 No.403265

>>403247
>That's what libs like you are calling us anyway.
You use the word liberal like the way you think I'm using the word tankie.
>I can't because things like that are impossible to calculate since it is a very vague term. Who exactly counts as being a death toll?
I don't know. I was hoping you could define that for me.
>You can show me that you are arguing in a good faith if you try to show me what do you think were faults of USSR.
It was an incomplete attempt to build socialism. Since it originated during difficult and peculiar historical circumstances with very few prior models to be based off of, the result was an awkward and bureaucratic political system rife with inefficiencies and various holdovers from Tsarist and NEP times. Such a system unintentionally selected for incompetence and pragmatic brutality rather than expertise, resulting in consistent mismanagement and backwards social policies. However, the USSR laid the foundations for a model of socialism and was successful at industrialising, raising living standards and producing great technoscientific advancements.
>You have none. You just asked vague loaded question.
False. I asked a perfectly normal question, with my point being that the majority of posters on this board would immediately resort to denial and overrreaction. If you read the question in the OP again, the way the question is worded implies that the death tolls provided by propagandists is false.
>>403255
>That's what the OP is, provocateur, don't pretend otherwise.
Coooooope.
>>Muh atrocities exist everywhere
><Don't deny the death toll!
>This shows that you've clearly never seen pic related or any other discussion debunking Gorillions.
Once again, a strawman. I never claimed nor implied that such a statistic was real. Seethe.
>>

 No.403267

>>403264
This is the kind of trolling that gives us a bad name Jamal.

>>403265
No, but you're implying that we deny actual death tolls in the OP, stay mad, you glow hard.
> I never claimed nor implied that such a statistic was real
>>

 No.403270

>>403267
>No, but you're implying that we deny actual death tolls in the OP
Most of the people in this thread are doing exactly that. Are you retarded?
>>

 No.403275

>>403270
>Most of the people in this thread are doing exactly that.
No they aren't glowfaggot - and no, jokes like "Stalin did nothing wrong" are not actual denial. The thread denies wrong doing by the USSR for its policies because overall they were correct, the idea of excesses or death tolls are not denied but explained to be lower than claimed and always have been, faggot.
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 No.403278

>>403265
> don't know. I was hoping you could define that for me.
So you don't even know what you are asking for specifically and you expect us to think that you have come here in good faith? Good luck with that.
>It was an incomplete attempt to build socialism. Since it originated during difficult and peculiar historical circumstances with very few prior models to be based off of, the result was an awkward and bureaucratic political system rife with inefficiencies and various holdovers from Tsarist and NEP times. Such a system unintentionally selected for incompetence and pragmatic brutality rather than expertise, resulting in consistent mismanagement and backwards social policies. However, the USSR laid the foundations for a model of socialism and was successful at industrialising, raising living standards and producing great technoscientific advancements.
Can you specifically name those inefficiencies? And what exactly that system had that made it select people for brutality and incompetence? Again, i expect a specific answer, not some vague handwaving.
>False. I asked a perfectly normal question
That you can't even explain what it means specifically. Sure.

You dropped the ball with this response but i will give you last chance to prove yourself.
>>

 No.403280

>>403278
>the USSR laid the foundations for a model of socialism and was successful at industrialising, raising living standards and producing great technoscientific advancements.
This is the only sign they MIGHT be arguing in good faith, but every good troll know that you have to show some sort of 'support' for a topic to get people to engage willingly.
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 No.403282

>>403270
Most people in this thread are not thinking that you are arguing in good faith so they don't think that you warrant a response better than "not enough". And unless you are completely retarded or a troll, you should easily see that those are not serious responses.
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 No.403287

File: 1627313895073.jpg ( 73.25 KB , 860x1024 , 1627190569851.jpg )

Zero
>>

 No.403316

I have work so I won't be returning for a while, my apologies.

>>403275
My question was about the real death toll of socialism, not whether or not such a figure is lower than claimed by right-wing propaganda.

>>403278
>So you don't even know what you are asking for specifically and you expect us to think that you have come here in good faith? Good luck with that.
I asked for the real death toll of socialism. The reason why I asked it is because I don't know what it is nor how to arrive at such a figure. Why is that strange to you?
>Can you specifically name those inefficiencies?
Just to name a few: misallocation of goods, chronic theft of goods by workers from enterprises, state agencies sabotaging the efforts of others, chronic shortages most often outside of major cities, ineffective planning methods, and of course the politically motivated rejection of cybernetics.
>And what exactly that system had that made it select people for brutality and incompetence?
The main cause was a political system with several layers of indirect voting that ultimately ended up favouring party elites, most of whom acquired their positions through either compliance or cunning. In the latter case it was Stalin, in the former it was Khrushchev.
>i expect a specific answer
I can give you specific examples for each if you so wish.
>You dropped the ball with this response but i will give you last chance to prove yourself.
How gracious and forgiving of you.

>>403282
Of course I understand that such responses are unserious, but I don't see how it changes my point. Don't you think it's odd that when asked about a death toll, the immediate response of the average anon here is extreme paranoia and edgy quips? If your answer is "well right-wing trolls ask questions like this all the time", I can accept this to some extent. But I would also expect plenty of serious responses as well because I've seen exactly that happen in "troll" threads all the time - a lot of posters love to debate with rightoids just for the sake of destroying their arguments.
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 No.403373

>>403316
>I asked for the real death toll of socialism. The reason why I asked it is because I don't know what it is nor how to arrive at such a figure. Why is that strange to you?
Then why do you need an answer anyway if you don't even know what exactly do you want?
>Just to name a few: misallocation of goods, chronic theft of goods by workers from enterprises, state agencies sabotaging the efforts of others, chronic shortages most often outside of major cities, ineffective planning methods, and of course the politically motivated rejection of cybernetics.
Those are not specific inefficiencies, only general accusations. Mostly perestroika bullshit. Can you provide me with some data that would show that those were true?
>The main cause was a political system with several layers of indirect voting that ultimately ended up favouring party elites, most of whom acquired their positions through either compliance or cunning. In the latter case it was Stalin, in the former it was Khrushchev.
Literally untrue. People directly chose what candidates are even eligible. And they chose them from the workers and peasants. You don't know even basic stuff about how soviet government worked.
>I can give you specific examples for each if you so wish.
I doubt it, especially since you dropped the ball with this reply too.

>Of course I understand that such responses are unserious, but I don't see how it changes my point.
So you know those are not serious replies, but you gonna blame them for that anyway. Fuck off, you duplicitous faggot. You wanna good answer? Don't ask shitty questions.
>>

 No.403642

>>403260
Yeah national capitalist you can go back at ANY TIME GO BACK
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 No.403655

>>403373
I have no idea why you're so upset with me. Did I say something to offend you?
>Then why do you need an answer anyway if you don't even know what exactly do you want?
Simple, I want the real death toll of socialism, which implies that I want the methodology used to count those deaths. How can I be more exact?
>Those are not specific inefficiencies, only general accusations. Mostly perestroika bullshit. Can you provide me with some data that would show that those were true?
Don't be silly. You should already know about the debacle surrounding OGAS. It's well known that enterprise managers misrepresented data in their reports and that shortages were not uncommon, don't even attempt to deny this. Workplace thievery (несун) was widespread especially during the later years.
As for the economy, it was inherently flawed. Since plans didn't have democratic legitimacy they necessitated Stalin's cult of personality, and by undermining such with reforms Khrushchev eroded the Soviet method of surplus extraction. Furthermore the way planners set targets was wasteful because they often aimed to maximise the production of intermediate goods instead of final goods. Read Cockshott.
>Literally untrue. People directly chose what candidates are even eligible. And they chose them from the workers and peasants. You don't know even basic stuff about how soviet government worked.
Voting in the USSR took the form of legislative elections to both houses of the Supreme Soviet, which in turn elected members of the Presidium and the Council of Ministers. Legislative election candidates had to be approved by the Central Auditing Commission of the CPSU which was appointed by the Party Congress of the CPSU. The Party Congress also appointed the Party's Central Committee, Politburo and Secretariat.
Before 1936 constitution it was more indirect, as local councils would elect the Congress of Soviets which elected the Central Executive Committee which elected the Council of People's Commissars. We have Stalin to thank for some of these reforms, but the form of party organisation and the indirect appointment of members of the executive branch and the head of state ended up consistently favoring the over-representation of party elites.
Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Anyways, will you answer my question or will you keep antagonising me for no reason whatsoever?
>>

 No.403715

>>403200
Alright gomrade so I'm not gonna flesh out every event associated with 20th century communism. thats a lot of energy, for a work beat wagie Anons are always welcome to ruthless criticism of my estimates I still have a lot to learn.
I am gonna be VERY generous to the main bourgeois narrative and still will see the vast lies and exaggeration. Many of these Numbers are straight from wiki for devils advocate.
I'm gonna include 1/2 of the Chinese and Russian civil war I believe civil wars are neutral still I'll play more devil's advocate.

9 million for the Russian revolution (famine included)
7 million for Chinese revolution
5 million for the "holodomer"
30 million for the great leap foward famine.
700,000 for the "great" purge
2 million dead during the deportations yeah I know they were moved but still Devil's advocate.
(Will not add the death of the Korean and Vietnam war that is fully at the hands of the bourgeoisie)
(But let add it in for DA)
2.5 million for the V&K war's
Other shit 2 Million for every car accident in communism because everything the commies had a hand in
Together that gets
3 Million for the cultural revolution
That's only 56
60,* million 200,000!

Even giving the bourgeois narrative everything, they still have VASTLY exaggerated the numbers.
Was the "Holodomer" communism's fault or a combination of kulak sabotage and drought? Well the later as we all know! Was the great leap forward a Mao planned mass genocide or some idiotic policy on birds… plus natural disaster? Again it was the later surprise no surprise. The stuff they can even try to really pin us on, is 1/10 of what they claim. To give them everything and its still 1/2 or so what they say. The history hasn't made me question Communism it has reaffirmed it.
>>

 No.403717

Hot take:
Death toll of socialism is equal to the amount of excess death in every AES state ever: each death from starvation, death by criminal or state-sanctioned murder, death from morbidity, death from curable illness, death from car crashes and so on, in short, every preventable death. Then you divide this number by the sum total of people who were ever present in an AES state. Now you get the "ebulizm" index. Now apply the same calculus to the capitalist states. Compare. Win every argument with a rightoid from that point on.
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 No.403729

>>403717
I would love for some neet cough cough to put the time into doing this.
>>

 No.403732

>>403715
Good points, thanks again anon.
>>

 No.403741

>>403732
Sorry for the terrible format and grammar hopefully its made sense
>>

 No.403753

>>403316
>I asked for the real death toll of socialism. The reason why I asked it is because I don't know what it is nor how to arrive at such a figure. Why is that strange to you?
whats strange is making the subject of a thread an undefined and useless concept, often used as retarded anti communist propaganda, trying to bait people into shitposts to somehow claim some superiority on "tankies"
>>

 No.403763

>>403655
>Simple, I want the real death toll of socialism, which implies that I want the methodology used to count those deaths. How can I be more exact?
why do you want that ? "death toll" of an economic system is not a useful analytic tool. Its a propaganda tool. A more useful metric would be life expectancy evolution, and even that must be observed with great deal of attention to context, a war or a drought being obvious external effects.
In short, why are you asking a question that doesnt help you understand shit ?
>>

 No.403791

>>403753
>>403763
Obviously it's because I'm der ewige /pol/acken what come to do a muh gorillion and venezuela iphone.
>>

 No.409356

>>401291
>What is the real death toll of socialism?
you have to be more specific, OP. I am not a stalinist but asking for "death toll of socialism" isn't very specific.

Because the first thing to do when counting the death toll is making your methodology clear. what do you mean by socialism? many social democratic government supported colonialism and imperialism. are their victims also victims of socialism? should someone who got a heart attack after his farm was collectivized be considered as a victim of socialism? (no really, sometimes historians have to deal with such questions) also, there are countries that are still communist like China or Cuba. they havent opened their archives (probably) for obvious reasons. so the only countries where we can be more or less sure are the european ones.
>>

 No.409359

File: 1627581558484-0.jpg ( 29.56 KB , 400x266 , frog anprim.jpg )

File: 1627581558484-1.jpg ( 60.27 KB , 850x400 , quote-every-monument-of-ci….jpg )

>>401291
>every civilisation has resulted in atrocities
based and primitivist pilled
>>

 No.409401

>>401291
0
>>

 No.409403

>>401291
Zero.

Communism/socialism has never existed.
>>

 No.409406

It's definitely 600 billion and they were all jewish niggers
>>

 No.409411

>>401381
always cracks me up lol
>>

 No.409416

>3 millions of Ukrainians starve to death
>b-b-but some of them were kulaks! therefore it's all justified and doesn't count!
Unironically worse than liberals.

Then you've got retards like >>401356 who count births as negative deaths, which is like counting consensual sex as negative rape.
>>

 No.409423

>>409416
>Unironically worse than liberals
Liberals discount deaths from the poverty of capitalism all the time.
>>

 No.409427

>>409423
>but in america, you are lynching negroes!
Maybe, but at least they don't discount intentional starvation.
Unlike tankies in this very thread.
>>

 No.409428

>>401291
whatever Dennis says after his wife doesn't allow him to have sex with her again
>>

 No.409432

>>409427
but there wasn't any?
Why are anarchists and libs so fucking incesstant on it? Are you jealous That we actually did shit and have to smeer us? Go ahead bitch. It doesn't stop anarchism from failing to launch everytime. The only anarchists that exist in the world are all white PMCs
>>

 No.409434

File: 1627584797197.jpg ( 15.13 KB , 170x213 , tukh.JPG )

>>409416
kulak detected, and wait… look at this, a signed confession!
>>

 No.409436

>>409427
There was no intentional starvation.
>>

 No.409443

>>409432
>Why are anarchists and libs so fucking incesstant on it?
Maybe because of the orders to shoot people trying to escape famine?
It could be partly because the starvation deaths were somehow happening much more often to Ukrainians than to almost any other group.
Or maybe because of how food was being confiscated from starving Ukrainians to send it to relatively well off russians?

But no, this can't be intentional just because of that! Nope, nothing here.
>>

 No.409455

>>409443
Since you are so certain of this, I assume you have a source for these claims?
>>

 No.409471

>>409443
>famine in Ukraine disproportionately affects Ukrainians
woah
>>

 No.409478

>>409443
>Maybe because of the orders to shoot people trying to escape famine?
[citation fucking needed]
What kind of logic is this? What's the point of shooting them while starving?
>Or maybe because of how food was being confiscated from starving Ukrainians to send it to relatively well off russians?
I'm pretty sure USSR was planning to send food not only to Russia, to all others soviet countries, including Ukraine.
>But no, this can't be intentional just because of that! Nope, nothing here.
Cite ONE source where they were deliberately planing to starve SPECIFICALLY Ukraine, and for what fucking reason?
>>

 No.409483

File: 1627588206804-0.jpg ( 196.31 KB , 1200x841 , f96a173b421601b088d67c0bde….jpg )

File: 1627588206804-1.jpg ( 527.94 KB , 1050x950 , 15d2ec1ad24b822989685217f9….jpg )

>>409443
>affected disproportionately the ukrainians
Let me say that is false, Kazakhstan was more affected by the famine, also contries that depended on ukraine for food, like poland, was also affected.
>>

 No.409485

According to fake historians the "holodomor" magically ended when it crossed the soviet-poland border lmao
>>

 No.409498

>>409443
>Maybe because of the orders to shoot people trying to escape famine?

Can confirm. My father is from ukraine and he died 90000 times because Stalin killed him again and again when he tried to get food.
>>

 No.409500

>>401294
/thread
>>

 No.409506

>>403791
>no argument
>>

 No.409507

>>409443
1. Peasants fleeing the southern grain regions (not just Ukraine) were apprehended (not shot) and returned, because they were necessary to solve the famine.
2. Kazakhs suffered worse. If the famine was intentional and targeting Ukrainians, why did it affect areas outside Ukraine?
3. Food was confiscated from rural regions so that the cities with population concentrations would not starve. In doing this they saved lives.

There is no evidence whatsoever of it being planned or otherwise intentional. Extensive relief in the form of food, seeds, and forage was sent, and tens of thousands of workers were dispatched to aid in the collectivization process. This lead to a successful harvest which ended the famine. Collectivization in general ended the cyclical famines Russia had suffered from since time immemorial.
>>

 No.410654

>>409507
>were apprehended (not shot)
Revisionism
>Kazakhs suffered worse
Somehow it's only nations that weren't subservient to the overlord. Curious that.
>Food was confiscated from rural regions so that the cities with population concentrations would not starve.
So they ended up killing much more in the end.
>>

 No.410657

>>409507
>Extensive relief in the form of food, seeds, and forage was sent
Intentionally way too late.
>>

 No.410659

>>409498
Stalin ate all the fathers.
>>

 No.410661

>>410657
Do you have a single fact to back that up ?
>>

 No.410711

>>401291
>It should go without saying, but every civilisation and ideology has resulted in atrocities
False.
>if you're incapable of admitting those of your own
I am but they seriously didnt happen.
>>

 No.410741

>>409416
>3 millions of Ukrainians starve to death
Because of communism?
Think how capitalism would deal with famine for more than a second.
>>

 No.410744

>>410741
In 1983, Here in BR HUE zone at least 3,5 million died in the northern part from a famine, the BR gov barelly helped, and no entity cared about these deaths and is hardly recorded in any media.
>>

 No.410760

>>409443
>orders to shoot people trying to escape famine?
Show me the order
>food was being confiscated from starving Ukrainians
Likewise, proof
>>

 No.410795

>>410661
Try google
>>

 No.410808

>>410795
Google will tell me anything I want it to tell me.
>>

 No.410813

>>401291
Way below what western media gleefully reports. Also, waaaaaaaaaaaay below Victims of Communism's numbers, and like 99% of death toll of socialism comes from fascists killed in WW2.
>>

 No.410814

>>409416
>3 millions of Ukrainians starve to death

According to fucking who, Conquest? There wasn't even a million dead due to that famine for ENTIRE USSR, and Poland across the border had bigger death rates due to famine in their part of Ukraine.
>>

 No.410819

What's so bad about killing people?
>>

 No.410820

>>410744
what's this?
>>

 No.410824

>>410819
It's unhygienic.
>>

 No.410826

>>410824
Not if you recycle properly
>>

 No.410828

File: 1627644939652.webm ( 42.36 MB , 960x720 , march of soviet tankists.webm )

>>401291
Politics is violence. The "death toll" doesn't matters, all that matters is that the hyperbole surrounding the narrative that communism is especially violent or murderous is bullshit.
>>

 No.410830

>>410814
>There wasn't even a million dead due to that famine for ENTIRE USSR
lmao
>>

 No.410925

>>410920
>Holodomor and gulag deaths are fake, if you guys admit the Holocaust didn't happen. Deal?
No because both were real the only difference is that the Holodomor wasn't
intentional.
>>

 No.410927

>>410920
No. The white genocide commited by the prefidious German shall never be forgiven. Go suck on Prescott Bush's cock, maybe he will give more investies into your conslager slave-labour companies.
>>

 No.410928

A couple million nazis at least
>>

 No.410932

>death toll of socialism
this is a concept that makes no fucking sense
>>

 No.411134

File: 1627660757632.jpg ( 274.24 KB , 732x1024 , ppmc7w.JPG )

>>410654
>revisionism
The only revisionist here is you, claiming that the famine was intentional in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, because of your rabid anti-communist ideological persuasions.
>Somehow it's only nations that weren't subservient
Huh? The famine affected a large geographic area beyond Ukraine and Kazakhstan. It also affected the southern Volga regions, Russia proper, the Ural region, and Siberia. In the west the weather also had effects on crops outside of Soviet borders, in Poland and Turkey.
>So they ended up killing much more in the end.
No, it saved lives. Cities had population concentrations and economic concentrations. No doubt if the Soviets had sent no aid to the cities we’d be hearing your crocodile tears about those deaths instead.

Soviet collectivization ended the archaic feudal agricultural system and by doing so ended famine forever in Russia.

>>410657
>Intentionally way too late.
It was delayed due to administrative incompetence and bungling on the local levels. There is zero evidence it was intentionally late.
>>

 No.411146

>>410830
It's true, though. You get 3 million with DEMOGRAPHIC BALANCING. You know, the same method that gives USA 10 millions dead during the same years - Dustbowl Famine, ever heard of it? So, choose wisely - either both USSR and USA lost millions due to famine, and USA was worse off even, or USSR didn't lose even a million dead due to famine.
>>

 No.411152

>>411134
>It was delayed due to administrative incompetence and bungling on the local levels. There is zero evidence it was intentionally late.

It wasn't delayed at all. It's just like with China's super-corruption or whatever - their state works so well that there's a lot of reporting and self-criticism, resulting in westerners having too many "proofs" of gazillions dead. Good accounting and no hiding of mistakes results in gazillions dead in western media.
>>

 No.411183

>>411146
>Dustbowl Famine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl
You know what's so fucking funny to me? No mention on wiki about death of this famine AT ALL. Only about "economic impact". If this was about USSR or any other even vaguely socialist country, half of the page would be about how many people died horrible in this famine.
>>

 No.411467

File: 1627673067377.png ( 635.7 KB , 2420x1507 , WikiReliableSources.png )

>>411183
Yeah, wiki is shit. The very fact that info on wiki changes depending on language is proof enough that wiki isn't reliable at all, and their guidelines are just fun all around. The most brazen example is wehraboo mythology pages, any mention that nazis lied and both lessened their losses and hugely overblew enemy losses, and thus any data based off nazi official propaganda cannot be used, is met with huge outrage.
>>

 No.411546

>>409356 (me)
here are the numbers of the victims of communism from european countries:
>USSR
executed: ~800 thousand
died in GULag: ~1,2 million (including "spetsposelenie" and deported nations)
1932-33 famine: ~3 million
(source: ZEMSKOV, Politicheskie repressii v SSSR: realnyje masshtaby i spekulyativnye postroeniya, 2013 - cyrillic: Политические репрессии в СССР: реальные масштабы и спекулятивные построения.)
>Czechoslovakia
executed: 248
died in camps: ~4500
while crossing the border: ~282
died during the Warsaw pact invasion: 137
(sources: TOMEK, Oběti komunistického režimu, 2010 https://archive.fo/l3LAh , TOMEK, PEJČOCH, Černá kniha sovětské okupace, 2018, Svět křídel)
>GDR
executed: 52 (by soviet military tribunals: 1 200)
"political murders": 50
while crossing the border: 270 - 4 444
(source: BORBE, Die Zahl der Opfer des SED-Regimes, 2010 https://d-nb.info/117824721X/34 )
>Poland
50 000 (from this 3 000 were executed)
(IPN wydał album o zbrodniach komunizmu z lat 1944-56, https://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news%2C393765%2Cipn-wydal-album-o-zbrodniach-komunizmu-z-lat-1944-56.html )
>Romania
500 000 - 2 million
(Romania exposes communist crimes, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6190931.stm )
>Bulgaria
killed by partisans september - october 1944: 26 850
died in camps: 640
death senteces: 1050 (January - May 1945), 680 (1946-1975)
died during the turkish demonstrations 1984-89: 160
(Crimes Committed by the Communist Regime in Bulgaria, https://www.ustrcr.cz/data/pdf/konference/zlociny-komunismu/COUNTRY%20REPORT%20BULGARIA.pdf )
>Hungary
Sentenced to death by criminal courts and executed (1946–56)- 338
Sentenced to death by military courts and executed (1946–56)- 147
Sentenced to death and executed for part in ’56 Revolution (1956–61)- 228
died in the Hungarian uprising 1956 - 2652
died in camps/ prisons - 300
(THE CRIMES OF THE COMMUNIST REGIME IN HUNGARY NATIONAL REPORT, https://www.ustrcr.cz/data/pdf/konference/zlociny-komunismu/COUNTRY REPORT HUNGARY.pdf )
>Albania
~6000 people executed / died in prisons/camps
(Communist-Era Disappearances Still Haunt Albania, https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/03/17/communist-era-disappearances-still-haunt-albania )
>Yugoslavia
5 000 - 20 died in the camps
( https://munkataborok.hu/en/other_countries/yugoslavia )

P.S. most of this is just me using google. if you have better sources, post them.
>>

 No.411549

>>411546
*5 000 - 20 000 died in the camps (yugoslavia)
>>

 No.411552

File: 1627678044664.jpg ( 101.42 KB , 746x566 , Aloysius_O'Hare.jpg )

low quality bait thread
>>

 No.411583

File: 1627679605644.jpg ( 127.23 KB , 1360x765 , 9505d3424f3272f36bfdcdab83….jpg )

>>

 No.411590

>>409416
These weren't regular births. They were excess births brought about by communism.

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