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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1625063455700.png ( 746.48 KB , 1200x1091 , Hydrogen_Density_Plots.png )

 No.347862[Last 50 Posts]

I wanna see if any big brain anons can wrap their heads around why quantum mechanics killed all form of metaphysical thinking. All physical phenomena are quantum manifestation of a field with many potential energies.

Quantum mechanics essentially killed many metaphysics philosophers and now all they do is cope.
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 No.347868

Isn't quantum mechanics a kind of metaphysics?
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 No.347869

File: 1625063800757.jpg ( 566.7 KB , 3797x1920 , Edited_20210630_093511.jpg )

>>347862
>I wanna see if any big brain anons can wrap their heads around why quantum mechanics killed all form of metaphysical thinking.
What are you basing this statement on?
>All physical phenomena are manifestation of a field with many potential energies.
Literally what "metaphysics" has been saying for 1000s of years.
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 No.347873

>>347862
Retard alert!
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 No.347877

>>

 No.347879

>>347869
Metaphysics when it comes to the natural world says that everything is an absolute thing that is infinitely indivisible which is incorrect.
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 No.347880

>>347877
bro the universe started with an egg that just magically expanded. this isn't metaphysical at all bro
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 No.347885

>>347880
This is your brain on creationism.
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 No.347892

Nah quantum mechanics proved metaphysics.
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 No.347905

File: 1625066627418.png ( 158.95 KB , 299x322 , 1584680057890.png )

Retard mis-understanding QM thread #4534654
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 No.347908

>>347895
both were proven wrong for them the absolute thing was just the atom or the monad
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 No.347912

File: 1625066847889.jpeg ( 72.29 KB , 781x587 , David_Lewis.jpeg )

>>347862
Are you sure of that possibility?
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 No.347935

>>347892
A physicist would laugh at you if you made a claim like that. You can make the claim that metaphysics is proved by quantum mechanics, but then you'd have to ignore general relativity. There are no "first principles" just forces that are taken in holistically, it's why physicist want to make a "theory of everything" to unite general relativity and quantum mechanics.
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 No.347939

>>347895
The atom is just a name for a particle made up of protons neutrons and electrons; and which protons are and neutrons are made up of quarks.
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 No.347980

>>347862
>knowledge carries meaning in and of itself
No.

- Quantum mechanics can't tell us whether anyone cares.
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 No.347994

>>347862
Seems to me that this is just "philosophy is dead" remixed to nowadays shitty pseudotheological trend. Those "I love science!" people claiming metaphysics are dead because they saw a documentary on netflix about some extremely complex field they didn't even try to begin to understand are not that different than the retarded Christians of the first century or the moronic positivists of the nineteenth who claimed their weird stuff was the shit and hence all concurrence was in an impasse.

Yeah I bet metaphysics will still be there in a thousand years while quantum mechanics will be seen as a passed out rudimentary tool of stupid monkeys
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 No.348022

>>347908
>t. Vraubket
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 No.348025

>>347908
The smallest simpleest substance that cannot be devided is a monad. Cope and seethe retard
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 No.348028

>>347980
not that it matters but string theory is out
Loop Quantum Gravity is in
https://youtu.be/dpmx8D5CXRA
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 No.348032

>>348025
based and wigpilled
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 No.348034

>>347862
You can have materialist quantum mechanics.
Watch the embed video

The shapes you posted in your Picture can fit a statistical distribution for a philosophically atomist model look at the picture of hydrogen
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 No.348039

File: 1625072599495.jpg ( 207.65 KB , 665x638 , hydrogen.jpg )

>>348034 (me)
>look at the picture of hydrogen
here is the picture
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 No.348041

>>347994
>the moronic positivists of the nineteenth
give me some names
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 No.348088

>>347962
I tried to understand this post but it sounds smart
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 No.348092

>>347994
I think maybe you’re just retired.
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 No.348096

>>348092
Retarded*
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 No.348146

>>348092
I mean it's sure I'm retarded, I did the whole course on Newtonian mechanics and it was hard, when it came to quantum mechanics and thermodynamics I quit, this shit wasn't for me, I couldn't spend the mental energy and focusing on this. It's for smart people who are quite out there and while I have the utmost respect for them I can't but loath those who drink some Mongolian drible like this >>347962 or think somehow retards who don't even know basic arithmetic can speak about how quantum mechanics affect our understanding on a macro level because someone told them about some cat who's not quite dead. Quantum mechanics are a field of physics you can't get into without a heavy knowledge of math and other physics stuff. It's like you can't teach marxism to a toddler, you have to begin by the alphabet, the words and other language stuff. This thread and commoners talking about this is just people saying "ougouhgougahgah".
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 No.348163

File: 1625077685324.jpg ( 135.58 KB , 602x602 , main-qimg-bb7e41b83faaa469….jpg )

>>348028
But string theory is A E S T H E T I C.
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 No.348166

>>348146
Quantum mechanics can be understood intuitively, and explained in an intuitive way. At the end of the day the concepts that are being explained are yes real natural phenomena and have a mathematical proof to their processes but it is all summed up in a sensible way to describe how physics is distinct at the quantum level.
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 No.348167

>>347962
You know what…I'm gonna sreencap this and post it on booru. Too good a post to just let past by
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 No.348172

>>348167
It is a pretty stupid post but go ahead lol
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 No.348178

>>348172
>It is a pretty stupid post
Ok then explain it better lol. You know someone that isn't deep into physics, may have trouble grasping a flawed analysis from a bad one. Snarky one liner doesn't cut it for me sorry
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 No.348184

>>348172
the dude you replied to is dunning-kruger in effect
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 No.348186

>>348184
>dunning kruger
Fucking based
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 No.348198

>>348178
I don't want to respond to a wall of hogwash and mystification rooted in a poor understanding of quantum/classical correspondence. If that doesn't cut it for you that's fine.
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 No.348230

>>348198
No need to be a harry hater, anon. It's okay to not understand something.
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 No.348256

>>348198
>when you claim to know about physics by reading a single paragraph on Wikipedia
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 No.348263

>>347868
Quantum mechanics has interpretations that veer into metaphysics. But that goes to the point that quantum mechanics didn’t kill metaphysics.
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 No.348275

Quantum mechanics is unverifiable bs that’s basically the modern version of alchemy. Just a bunch of words and phrases thrown together, peddled by the elites and their lackeys as some kind of secret knowledge, when all it is is speculation and daydreaming. Same with this relativity bullshit, it’s purely some metaphysical cope used to justify moral decadence
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 No.348276

>>347962
This is a good post, idk what the other tards are talking about. I'm curious where you got all the "mollusk" metaphor from, it made me think of Lovecraftian Cthulhu stuff. And lovecraft would have been writing that around the beginning of scientific understanding of QM
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 No.348286

>>348263
This is incorrect because quantum physics isn’t about “first principles” the way metaphysics is, that belongs to Newtonian physics. The stupid have attempted to turn the Higgs-Boson into a some metaphysical “god particle” which is an attribute from atom fags and metaphysics.
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 No.348306

>>348275
I would probably kill you if I could. What a bunch of midwit/pseudo intellectual garbage you are spouting. This is what too much Maupin does to you
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 No.348326

>>348286
Bohm’s implicate order concept seems very metaphysical to me, and he elaborates the idea as an interpretation of QM. A lot of more hard-nosed theoretical physicists seem to have disdain for people like Bohm and other QM interpretations on the basis that they’re just frivolous metaphysical dressing that don’t change the theory. Bohm denied this in his time by claiming there are SOME predictions that could be made via his interpretation, but the experiments weren’t practical.
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 No.348331

>>348275
>>>/pol/
>>

 No.348338

Someone explain how this does or doesn’t relate to Steiner and Anthroposophy.
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 No.348341

>>348286
This is a dim take. Quantum mechanics raises all sorts of metaphysical quandaries. For example, determinism versus indeterminism, the existence of parallel or possible worlds, the ontology of probability or possibility (i.e, is the superposition inherently probabilistic or is it merely measured in probability) and the question of whether external reality depends on an observer (to collapse the wave function)
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 No.348355

>>348306
>>348331
>BRO BRO BRO, THIS IS HECKIN SCIIIIIEEENCE!!!!!!!
>YOU CANT HECKIN DISAGREE WITH THE BOURGEOISIE WHEN IT COMES TO MOTHERFUCKIN SCIENCE BRO
>EVEN THOUGH ITS ALL COMPLETELY THEORETICAL AT BEST AND MADE UP AS THEY GO ALONG, YOU GOTTA TRUST PORKY!!!!
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 No.348360

>>348355
>I don't understand how the scientific method or theoretical physics works
>muh it has to be the bourgeoisie
Absolutely infantile
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 No.348370

>>348360
Oh really, scientific method huh? How is the postrinic spin of a quantum cube tested? Where is the independently verified experiment that proves the “speed of light”? None of these things are ever tested, and even the scientists themselves admit it’s only real when it wants to be, they just come up with pipe dreams. But please, tell me all about how HECKIN TIME TRAVEL is now possible with an infinitely wrong rod and how that’s useful in the real world
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 No.348373

>>348341
No you get into speculation or speculative philosophy when you speak of parallel worlds or even string theory. At the end of the day there isn’t my empirical facts of such things and so within the realm of physics those theories are just speculative science. Quantum entanglement and virtual particles and such are logical within the bounds of our current reality and so the properties of even quantum mechanics isn’t “infinite”. Real research is done to understand how we got here and not only are mathematical proofs done by physical observable proofs through particle colliders. This is why scientists do massive peer review stuff before it is presented as something more than just “theory”. Metaphysics isn’t concerned with trying to empirically explain reality but instead steps into the realm of the “infinite unknowable”.
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 No.348380

>>348370
Time travel isn’t possible, especially not physically in the universe we know. We can travel forward in time through relativistic high speeds, in fact it’s been observed by the ISS and earth clocks which must be adjusted because the speed the station is constantly in; it is a very minuscule time shift but it happens nonetheless to the extent that clocks must be resynced. Also you know what a peer review is right?
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 No.348389

>>348380
You know there’s another way to travel forward in time…it’s called literally standing there and waiting. Wow! Thanks quantum physics! This will definitely matter under socialism!

Also lol peer reviewed, yeah by other bourgeois puppets. Literally just porkies patting each other on the back. How are you this dumb?
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 No.348398

>>348389
Learn what a fucking descriptive science is you dipshit, before you come here and act like a turd
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 No.348402

>>348398
Learn what actual science is before repeating big words you heard from some Netflix documentary
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 No.348406

>>348389
I guess Marx also thought Darwin and his discoveries were bourgeois. In fact all science of the 19th century was bullshit so in a way Marx and his ‘“‘“science””” has been negated therefore Marxism is bullshit.
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 No.348410

>>348406
Wrong, Marxism is an immortal science, or at least Marxism Leninism is. Darwin however has been time and time again going to be full of holes and only stuck around so fascists could justify genocide
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 No.348412

File: 1625083687736.jpg ( 90.92 KB , 816x452 , 47ef59db2e74f1eb866c4feef6….jpg )

>>347962
A legit, non-schizo effortpost on leftypol. How long has it been? Am I dreaming? Thanks for taking the time.
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 No.348413

>>348402
Not even Marx himself passed the verification principle and he is still right. Guess what…because Marxism is a descriptive science as much as it is an experimental science (when pressed)
>before repeating big words you heard from some Netflix documentary
Projection. Go back to watching infrared you colossal faggot
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 No.348415

>>348413
Go back to watching contrapoints troon
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 No.348424

>>348410
Marxism Leninism failed horribly loser lmao so much for your utopian “science”.
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 No.348428

>>348424
There’s this little country you may have heard of called the People’s Republic of China. It’s nothing much, just the most powerful nation on the planet
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 No.348432

File: 1625084025396.jpg ( 86.67 KB , 1200x675 , Copium.jpg )

>>348415
>Go back to watching contrapoints troon
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 No.348435

File: 1625084061900.png ( 593.48 KB , 794x720 , 1624475208376.png )

what are the historical implications of dialectical quantum materialism?
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 No.348438

>>348428
>dengist doesn’t believe in science
Oh no no no
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 No.348439

>>348438
There’s no such thing as “Dengism” lol. You’re just mad socialism works while your anarcho troon experiments all got btfo. Don’t worry, I’m sure if you just take a few more pills each day you’ll magically be a woman
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 No.348446

>>347962
>How to break this deadlock without regressing into spiritualism? Quantum physics here provides an answer: it is the gap between material reality and quantum proto-reality which makes possible the gradual self-overcoming of material reality. We thus have to posit a kind of ontological triad of quantum proto-reality (the pre-ontological quantum oscillations), ordinary physical reality, and the “immaterial” virtual level of Sense-Events (language) in which the pre-ontological real returns.

Extremely good theory comrade.
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 No.348454

>>348439
You got me there, Chinese Bezos Jack Ma is most certainly a true socialist. Even the economists who are liberals.
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 No.348455

File: 1625084527455-0.pdf ( 21.68 MB , 226x300 , tarasov-qm.pdf )

File: 1625084527455-1.pdf ( 864.06 KB , 203x300 , graham1966.pdf )

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 No.348458

>>348455 (me)
the title of the second pdf is
>Quantum Mechanics and Dialectical Materialism
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 No.348461

>>348370
>>348389
>>348410
>>348415
>>348439

I don't mind the stupid posters on here, there's a lot of them. I really do mind the stupid posters who are this proud of being stupid though. Science has a long and proud history with marxism. I think you might benefit from learning its methodology, and you might come to understand what the hard sciences can and can't do. Science has limits, but it's not for no good reason that hard sciences are considered apolitical. Science can do a lot of very good things, and it's done a lot of good things for us, the communists. It's a bit of an odd to thing to dismiss so broadly and with such certainty.
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 No.348465

>>348461
Quantum mechanics isn’t a hard science is my point, it’s sci-fi bread and circuses
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 No.348468

fyi, >>347962 is an excerpt from Zizek's book where he breakdowns the latest in quantum physics(I didn't credit it as I thought the style on top of references to both stalin and lacan would be a dead giveaway). There's a lot more in-depth explanation there, specifically the third corollay "The Retarded God of Quantum Ontology"

>>347994
>>348172
>>348198
literally 0 arguments. It's not even saying anything new about quantum physics itself(zizek relies on Rovelli for that), it's a critique of the logic in the interpretations.
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 No.348475

>>348468
book didn't upload, heres the epub
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 No.348481

>>348475
>epub
fuck this shit all my homies use pdf
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 No.348482

>>348465
at what point, in your opinion, does the science of small things veer into quantum mechanics. Chemistry is universally agreed to be the definition of a hard science, but modern chemistry relies very thoroughly and completely on quantum mechanical models of electrons. In the current model of chemistry, which has held up very well to empirical scrutiny so far, chemical bonds and chemical reactions can have their actions and characteristics predicted by their electron bonds, and electrons in chemistry are understood as being statistical superpositions of particles and waves, just as they are in quantum physics.

Physics relies on quantum mechanics too, and it's considered a hard science.

Biology is less often, but still frequently considered a hard science, but biochemistry and molecular biology rely on concepts in chemistry that in turn rely on concepts from quantum mechanics.

If you think you have a better atomic model than the last hundred years of scientific advancement, I'd love to hear it. Scientists everywhere would be ecstatic if the standard model was replaced by one that made more sense to human intuition. Come up and claim your nobel prize.

Until then, the quantum mechanical model of subatomic particles fits the math, and it can be used to make accurate predictions (we knew about the higgs boson decades before we physically found it), and in science, that's what matters.
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 No.348483

>>348468
damn. I thought a real-ass philosopher had stepped onto leftypol. Makes sense that it's from zizek though. That guy has some serious brains

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33kAMeHVzBA
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 No.348486

File: 1625085687815.jpg ( 103.91 KB , 606x720 , 70f6bebd97ce7c3ac97fb84996….jpg )

>>348475
>Slavoj Zizek - Sex and the Failed Absolute-Bloomsbury Academic (2019).epub
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 No.348489

>>348468
Why did Zizek in a talk say some retarded shit like when God made the universe that he made the universe with ill defined detail or some shit. I thought it was stupid because it’s a philosopher trying to make sense of empirical ignorance about space and time. Ignorance that is only that way because we haven’t “discovered” missing pieces yet in scientific theories. Perhaps the theory of everything doesn’t have to be this Godly end to all science, but instead just “knowing more” and in that science that makes me Hegelian idealist in the sense that our idea of the universe “becomes” all the more perfect with the more we learn and know, but I don’t agree, we see more details but the more details we see the more less we know.
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 No.348496

>>348373
Most theoretical physics is speculative. There are shelves of toy theories, conjectures, and the like, which physicists speculate with.
> parallel worlds
Many physicists, even quite prominent ones like David Deutsch and Max Tegmark support the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics and even suggest that there is some evidence in support of it. I don't claim to be a master of the subject, but it's clear that there are philosophical implications for this, such as modal realism (of David Lewis fame).
>Metaphysics isn’t concerned with trying to empirically explain reality but instead steps into the realm of the “infinite unknowable”.
Which is precisely where we must tread. QM bumps against the limits of human knowlege. It's worthwhile to ask what lies beyond that limit.
>>

 No.348515

>>348496
And there’s nothing wrong with speculation because in many ways that’s where science begins. But in order for a specific science to be reputable in needs to be observable in some way. The process of science really is isolating phenomena that can be observed then categorizing that phenomena as best as we can. Parallel worlds is not a phenomena that we can properly observe, only speculate on. There are theoretical “proofs” for example that say that if you were to travel into a black hole and come out the other side that you either enter a new universe or end up in the past, which it’s implications cause a lot of issues of causality. And these “proofs” are strictly mathematical. And while I do think there are formulas for this many worlds stuff, it’s a very shaky one that requires an extensive understanding of many types of physics.

One thing I find interesting is that for the Big Bang for example, some people say that the universe was very small, but I think -and this is something that many scientists have also interpreted as- that the universe wasn’t “small” in the way we understand size or volume, but instead early on the distance between “things” was much smaller. Many have described the early inflation during the Big Bang as the metric of the universe itself, so the universe was incomprehensibly “big” but it was “infinitely” dense. Some people interpret this as being that the universe was actually the size of the pin of a needle or something which is both correct and not correct.
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 No.348620

>>348515
Quantum physics however deals all the time in unobservables. The superposition of a particle is by definition unobservable, because once it is observed it decoheres.

When all is said and done you don't actually know what metaphysics is and don't understand the thinking that goes into it, seeing it as a proxy for lazy make believe and mysticism. That is your own ignorance showing. No matter where science goes. science by itself will never tell us what it all means.
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 No.348627

>le extraction of surplus effortposts
literally capitalism
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 No.348641

>>348482
>electrons in chemistry are understood as being statistical superpositions
You just said it right there. They are understood as, but thats not what they are. This is just woo that works.
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 No.348645

>>348489
> God made the universe
Its a metaphor. He was making a point about simulation theory and how things aren't rendered in first person video games when you aren't looking. Its related to quantum physics in the same way as 'if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it'. If there are no observers is matter rendered the same as if there are? How would you know? What constitutes an observer? Don't let the G word trigger you into missing the point.
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 No.348650

>>348515
Many times important breakthroughs are made on what is NOT observable but what is implied to be missing by the observables, what their mathematical relationships point to, like black holes and missing planets and subatomic particles.
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 No.348738

>>348645
Obviously when I use God I don't mean it in the religious but the philosophical sense the way all philosophers use God.
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 No.348745

>>348620
Metaphysics will say if you cannot see it then it doesn't exist. Except quantum mechanics disregards that and says all things at the subatomic level are existing in a field of energy potential, and these potentials are manifested in different particles that are the building blocks of matter in the universe. The metaphysician will come to a ridiculous conclusion based on this whereas a physicist will simply say all matter are predictable manifestation of energy. In a disordered universe reality wouldn't make sense at least to us but during the birth of the universe as we know it energy became ordered and predictable. But again the point of a particle's superposition isn't because of some "random" magic. It's easily explained by the field of potential energies which is what particles are. Particles aren't single points the way a molecule is, they are energy manifestations.
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 No.348778

>>348745
>Metaphysics will say if you cannot see it then it doesn't exist
No it won't. You're just proving my point that you don't know what you're talking about. Some questions metaphysics might ask are: What is energy? Why is energy treated as such a foundational ontological concept? Why does energy come before matter? What does it mean for energy to be in a state of "potential"? How does this relate to everything else that might be known or knowable?
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 No.348794

File: 1625096139680.pdf ( 528.14 KB , 212x300 , Klein Bottle - Slavoj Žiž….pdf )

>>348552
I was half way through reading that post thinking about how much I agree when I started to hear the sniffs in my mind. The rest of it can be found here.

https://www.bloomsburycollections.com/book/new-realism-and-contemporary-philosophy/ch10-klein-bottle-le-tube-de-caption-or-the-subject-s-snout-the-research-included-in-this-chapter-was-funded-by-the-slovenian-research-agency-arrs-und.pdf
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 No.348864

>>348745
>Metaphysics will say if you cannot see it then it doesn't exist.
That literally only depends on what your metaphysical interpretations are?
Are you treating the entire philosophical field of metaphysics as a singular scientific theory or something?
>>

 No.349604

File: 1625152248998.jpg ( 115.9 KB , 1200x675 , bohm.jpg )

>>348326
>shitting on Bohm
The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics simply recapitulates the prejudices of the physicists of the early 20th century. The interpretation that, for instance, an electron or photon has no position until it is measured, merely restates the founding assumption that science is about relations between subjective sense data perceived by the scientist. This was extended to say that it is about relations between instrument readings that the scientist perceives.

Applied to quantum mechanics we get notions to the effect that when one performs a two-slit experiment, the particles have no position until they are observed. That immediately poses the question as to what counts as an observation. The intuition from the philosophy and from the terminology ‘observer’ is that it human observers that count. But in actual physics experiments, the "observations" are performed by machines or by things like photographic films. When a photon hits a photodetector and is registered, does that count as an observation?

All of the experiments which are taken to justify the Copenhagen interpretation actually rely on "observations" or recordings by such inanimate devices, so at this point there is nothing special about quantum mechanics that relies on human observers. If we were to say that a photodetector camera only really recorded something when a person looks at the result on a screen, then we are back in the sort of Berkeley type subjectivism where things cease to exist when we no longer look at them. This is absurd and no sort of foundation for scientific research. If, instead, we assume that it is interaction with macroscopic objects that "collapses the wave function" as the Copenhagen adherents put it, then one has consequential problems:

How do you know that the photon had no position prior to it being detected? All that you definitely know from the experiment is that a particle was detected in a specific position, what is the basis for assuming that it did not have definite positions all along its path? It is in the end just a philosophical assumption, since under pilot wave theory or Bohm theory, particles do follow definite paths. So when people say that the particle has no position until detected they are either deliberately or inadvertently choosing to make an extra philosophical assumption that is not needed to explain the experimental data.
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 No.352976

>>348452
Finally got a chance to sit down and listen to this podcast, it was very good and very relevant to this thread. Everyone should give it a listen.
>>

 No.353009

>>348864
No I'm not treating it as scientific. I'm treating it as unscientific. Metaphysics was destroyed with the science of the 19th century, and further in the 20th.
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 No.364651

"classically non-describably two-valuedness"

Electrons DO NOT Spin PBS Space Time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWlk1gLkF2Y
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 No.364703

Based Zizek enjoyers, the part about quantum mechanics is one of the most explicit and interesting parts of the whole book, definitely worth the read.
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 No.364709

>>352976
I will now, thanks to your post
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 No.364817

>>348465
Some leftists should open a STEM book once a while
>>

 No.364829

"Qunatum mechanics deboonks philosophy" are the "Darwin deboonks philosophy" guys of our time.
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 No.364881

File: 1625781196025.jpg ( 62.51 KB , 480x600 , EK3HOn4XkAITfIQ.jpg )

>>349604
>Pilot Wave fag in 2021
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 No.365541

>>364817
>Some STEMlords should open a book once a while
yes I agree
>>

 No.365543

>>348641
But we have done so much with chemistry precisely by assuming that is how electrons work.

Quantum chemists calculated the bond energy and length of molecules by using that as a basis
>>

 No.365606

>>348645
>Its a metaphor. He was making a point about simulation theory and how things aren't rendered in first person video games when you aren't looking. Its related to quantum physics in the same way as 'if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it'.
>If there are no observers is matter rendered the same as if there are? How would you know?
Matter isn't rendered like in video games, it is really there all of the time fully physical, we are not living in a simulation, and yes the falling tree makes a sound in the woods regardless if somebody can hear it, nothing in quantum physics suggests otherwise. If you disagree with this, you disagree that the laws of physics have continuity, and you throw science out of the window and declare that reality is straight up magic.
People are getting confused by the Copenhagen interpretation, too many people interpret it as if it was supporting any of this insane woo.
The Copenhagen interpretation just says that potential particle positions are defined probabilistically by the wave function and when you measure it you cause destructive interference to get a definite position of the particle. For the Copenhagen interpretation the information of what happened before the measurement is theoretically out of bounds because you can't measure what happened before the measurement. People have taken this theoretical limitation to mean that reality isn't "entirely real" until you look at it, which is completely nuts. It's a limitation in the theory not in reality it self.
>What constitutes an observer?
there are no observers, it's just a crutch to make mathematical equations simpler
If this is tripping you up so much try reading the de Broglie Bohm interpretation, it's probably the better theoretical frame work anyway, at least in terms of future-proofing and the ability to describe new discoveries.
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 No.365614

>>365543
ok that doesn't mean we know what they are
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 No.365615

>>364829
so fucking true holy shit
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 No.365617

>>365606
Matter is there all the time but properties aren't determined until they are forced to
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 No.365618

>>365606
>Matter isn't rendered like in video games
1) you don't know that
2) its besides the point, simulation theory assumes it does and people take it seriously

i don't think simulation theory is true, its just a description of the logical conclusions of its assumptions, the main point was to discuss the role of the observer. observer doesn't have to be a sentient being, "measurement" is observation, but so it existence, because things exist in relation to other things.
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 No.365619

>>365606
This was my original point when I made this thread. Quantum mechanics or physics is just as natural as general relativity and "normal physics". Just because the quantum world has unique properties and processes of its own doesn't make it any less "real" or more "supernatural" than simple things like gravitation. Even the prospects of virtual particles doesn't say anything else about our universe other than it's natural processes which all work holistically to make our universe possible. There is no metaphysical absolute object that makes the universe what it is which is what metaphysics hinges on. As I said before the Higgs Boson was called the "god particle" which is funny and inaccurate, it's simply a field that gives particles it's mass. We already knew such a thing already existed but couldn't observe it due to limitations in technology.
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 No.365625

>>365619
Why would it have to be supernatural? What if human brains simply interpret patterns of matter into a usable form but in reality they are nothing like how they appear? The very same equations you rely on suggest time doesn't exist, what then of our experience of time? Why do you act like this is a finished and solved problem and not one with many different unproved interpretations that is still in progress.


>While physicists and good friends Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr were equally instrumental in founding quantum mechanics, the two had very different views on what quantum mechanics said about reality.[8] On one of many daily lunchtime walks with fellow physicist Abraham Pais, who like Einstein was a close friend and associate of Bohr, Einstein suddenly stopped, turned to Pais, and asked: 'Do you really believe that the moon only exists if you look at it?" As recorded on the first page of Subtle Is the Lord, Pais' biography of Einstein, Pais responded to the effect of: 'The twentieth century physicist does not, of course, claim to have the definitive answer to this question.' Pais' answer was representative not just of himself and of Bohr, but of the majority of quantum physicists of that time, a situation that over time led to Einstein's effective exclusion from the very group he helped found. As Pais indicated, the majority view of the quantum mechanics community then and arguably to this day is that existence in the absence of an observer is at best a conjecture, a conclusion that can neither be proven nor disproven.
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 No.365626

>>365618
The idea that the universe is simulation isn't something that says we're in a computer program. Simulation can mean many things, and in particular there's this idea of the universe being a hologram which makes sense because of certain space time paradoxes, and particularly black holes which may or may not destroy information but both imply something serious for the way we understand the universe. If it destroys information this means that black holes most likely will delete the universe, but there are issues like Hawking radiation which says that black holes radiate energy, or lose energy and will eventually evaporate over an incomprehensible amount of time, but with the expansion of the universe black holes may not be able to ever grow big enough to "erase" the universe. On the other hand if information isn't lost it's possible that the universe may be holographic, and we're inside some black hole's information singularity.
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 No.365628

File: 1625812523840.jpg ( 32.19 KB , 404x270 , 0be5a3fb274be3fb017c511e42….jpg )

>>365614
>make accurate predictions of what they can do
>doesn't mean we know what they are
?
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 No.365629

>>365628
Yes, which part are you having trouble with?
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 No.365630

>>353009
>No I'm not treating it as scientific. I'm treating it as unscientific. Metaphysics was destroyed with the science of the 19th century, and further in the 20th.
t. Anglo
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 No.365632

>>365629
Is this some kind of Gettier problem you are playing at?
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 No.365636

>>365625
A conservation between friends vs when these men are gathering information and solving mathematical formulas are two different things. There was never a paper from these guys who said that quantum mechanics negates objective reality somehow. Their scientific practice denotes an acceptance of objective reality. Quantum physics doesn't have any metaphysical implications except for those who want to justify a specific philosophy. At the end of the day philosophic speculation us secondary to scientific research and observation. Science must always adhere itself to an objective natural world to get anywhere, philosophy can interpret things as it likes but it could never get to the "truth" it wants. When Zizek says that the universe was made lacking certain detail, I see it as a self criticism of philosophy as a whole. Philosophy is the thing that lacks the right pieces to ever become whole.
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 No.365637

>>365632
I just don't think you should claim things are facts when they are simply theories, in the colloquial sense. Gravity and the Copenhagen interpretation are not on the same level of certainty and I think its extremely arrogant and shows ignorance when undergrads and engineers adopt the most popular view just because it works and then go forward pretending like they are immutable truths, because they don't actually understand the philosophy behind the science and just repeat what they are told.
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 No.365640

>>365630
t. Anglo
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 No.365642

File: 1625813471892.png ( 456.32 KB , 853x442 , d84.png )

>>365628
>taking the position that being able to make predictions is to know something in and of itself when science's favorite philosopher Karl Popper defines the core of science as sitting on falsifiabilty and the possibility that you don't actually know, even if you have reliable data, due to the problem of induction
Science man isn't even familiar with science.
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 No.365644

>>365640
>I don't know what words mean
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 No.365647

>>365636
>At the end of the day philosophic speculation us secondary to scientific research and observation. Science must always adhere itself to an objective natural world to get anywhere, philosophy can interpret things as it likes but it could never get to the "truth" it wants. When Zizek says that the universe was made lacking certain detail, I see it as a self criticism of philosophy as a whole. Philosophy is the thing that lacks the right pieces to ever become whole.
My position would be precisely the opposite. Philosophical speculation must always be primary to science to keep science from being used as a tool for the bourgeoisie. Phrenology is an objective science. Peoples heads are objectively different sizes. Liberalism and brain diseased anglos have crippled science and its important for philosophers to fuck up anything they try to do. When they don't science gets stuck.

Its really important to keep asking metaphysical questions about the implications of new scientific discoveries and bringing the most obscure and least read ones into the light in case the current direction we are headed is cutting off some kind of world changing technology by importing capitalist presuppositional "objective" perspectives that don't exist. Science is subjective, read Hegel.
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 No.365648

>>365642
I didn't say ability to make predictions isn't enough to know something, but knowing something should mean you can make predictions of it.
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 No.365651

>>365648
K that's okay but human knowledge is fallible and subject to influence, as well humans are stupid and can unintentionally introduce observer effect and perform broken experiments.

I'm just tired of the pseuds and science fanboys that >>365637 describes, and their opposition since they are arguing over things they don't even have a rigorous understanding of and it devolves into emotionally charged hysteria.
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 No.365652

File: 1625814593643.jpg ( 128.48 KB , 1024x1280 , 1625814581663.jpg )

ITT
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 No.365653

>>365651
*and their opposition as well, since
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 No.365655

File: 1625814722367.jpg ( 217.06 KB , 1080x1261 , 1625780527375.jpg )

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 No.365656

>>365652
That's a valid metaphysics under the philosophical school of naturalism
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 No.365659

>>365655
Who made this crap
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 No.365661

>>365655
this but unironically
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 No.365662

>>365619
>the Higgs Boson was called the "god particle" which is funny and inaccurate, it's simply a field that gives particles

All particles are fields, "particles" aren't real and quanta are not objects.
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 No.365665

>>365617
>Matter is there all the time but properties aren't determined until they are forced to
this is just convoluted dualism, matter on the one hand and "The Force" on the other.

>>365618
There are no indications that we live in a video game, there's no glitches that break the continuity of the laws of physics, no cheat codes that let you fly and clip through walls , no nothing. I don't have to refute this insane shit to reject it, you have to bring actual evidence that warrants taking this seriously. You can't just look at the bleeding edge of physics research and say that the confusing parts of recent-ish discoveries , give reason to consider these ridiculess claims. The simulation hypothesis links to unknowns that's reason enough to reject it, because you can't base anything on not knowing. If we are living in a software world, the proof will be when you can reprogram it, that's a fundamental property of software.

The credibility of the video game thought experiment is completely destroyed if you actually include realistic considerations about the necessary processing power, and energy requirements to run our universe. Do you know how many atoms you need to build a computer that can simulate one atom, do you know how much energy that a single atom simulation uses to run. Physics leaves no room for an interpretation of a world that is only "partially rendered", not that this mattered because even with such "render optimization" that is still implausible.

The simulation hypothesis is a clever mind trick to make you doubt reality, nothing more.

>>365619
I have to admit i don't understand why the higgs boson particle was called the god particle, i assumed it got this name as a joke because it was so hard to verify it experimentally. It took like 40 or 50 years from the theoretical conception to experimental verification.
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 No.365674

>>365659
Analytitard detected
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 No.365680

>>348275
Based retard
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 No.365681

>>365665
It's not the force, when you flip a coin you force an outcome to occur. When something occurs (we don't know exactly how this interaction works) on a quantum level, probability waves are collapsed and a property is forced to be decided, otherwise 'things' wouldn't happen. Is "probability" something that exists materially or a process of which things function?
>LITERAL video games
It's been said but it's just a way to intuitively describe the wave function collapse, it is undecided until it is forced having a certain property
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 No.365686

>>365665
>there's no glitches that break the continuity of the laws of physics, no cheat codes
Do you have any idea how irrelevant any of these considerations are? Like I already said I don't believe in it, but your examples don't disprove it either. If you don't like simulation theory because it hurts your feelings we can get to the same questions with other thought experiments. You completely ignored anything about the relationship between how observers act in a system according to the wave function to list a bunch of points about how its not literally a computer like the one on my desk. No shit, no one has ever claimed as much.

>>365626
>um aktually the universe is not written in BASIC therefor you are wrong
same problem. Are you two incapable of understanding analogies?
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 No.365819

File: 1625823494281.jpg ( 66.19 KB , 710x600 , coin force flip.jpg )

>>365681
>It's not the force, when you flip a coin you force an outcome to occur.
Still dualism, you are not separate from reality that is using The Force to flip a coin
>>365686
>Do you have any idea how irrelevant any of these considerations are?
If you think the universe is a computer simulation, then the computer that runs the simulation is the most relevant thing to talk about, what's the processor and will reality start to stutter if we run out of video memory ?
>Like I already said I don't believe in it, but your examples don't disprove it either.
Yes is does, the mind trick only works as long as you think about software in an idealist way of an ethereal thing without substance, if you think about realistically like a programs installed on computer the illusion collapses.
>If you don't like simulation theory because it hurts your feelings we can get to the same questions with other thought experiments.
That is projection 100%
>You completely ignored anything about the relationship between how observers act in a system according to the wave function
But this is just one possible interpretation, Bohminan mechanics for example doesn't need an observer. Which is why it's possibly a better theoretical framework.
Observers would have to be described as another "quantum system" influencing the "quantum system" you are trying to describe. It's going to become a never ending headache.
Just leave out the solipsism it's making this harder as it needs to be. At the end of the day we primarily want to have the physics understanding for building technology toys.
>to list a bunch of points about how its not literally a computer like the one on my desk. No shit, no one has ever claimed as much.
But anon need to be reminded that simulations need physical computers to run on.
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 No.365820

>we can't possibly get to the moon, do you realise how much energy we need to get up 100 metres!
Yawn
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 No.365942

>>365820
>that rocket that was used to send people to the moon, yeah turns out that was unnecessary, the universe is just a simulation, and we could have used cut and paste to go there.
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 No.365945

>>365942
>What is a technological advancement
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 No.366008

>>352976
>Everyone should give it a listen.
this.
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 No.366009

>>353009
>Metaphysics was destroyed with the science of the 19th century, and further in the 20th.
[Citation needed]
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 No.366111

>>348286
>This is incorrect because quantum physics isn’t about “first principles” the way metaphysics is, that belongs to Newtonian physics.
???
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 No.366117

>>365655
>principia mathematica
>toting something that has been explicitly rejected by mathematicians as a STEMlord bible
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 No.366122

File: 1625840671865.mp4 ( 11.34 MB , 720x720 , 1625497107281.mp4 )

>>365665
>There are no indications that we live in a video game, there's no glitches that break the continuity of the laws of physics, no cheat codes that let you fly and clip through walls , no nothing. I don't have to refute this insane shit to reject it, you have to bring actual evidence that warrants taking this seriously.
Excuse me, have you ever heard the blessed message of ISLAM?

Anon you have to consider that the vast majority of people have fuzzy caveman logic brains and the only way you can get them to actually believe you (and you need to do that in order to get funding for research) is to fool them out of their anti-scientific brains with analogical exposition. If you don't do that you end up with the tragedy of New Atheism where everyone paints their own headcanon on the objectives of secularism and no one cooperates to reach a unified body of thought once they've achieved the goal of discrediting religious orthodoxy. Remember that science is corroborative, so if someone hypes people into delusions through the use of stories that enough people believe in, they will actually think it's scientific even when it has no actual backing in rigorous experimentation. That's deep vulnerability in promoting scientific methodology as something that is able to stand as truth alone so you need to embed it in a metaphysics of some form to compensate for the fact that human beings don't really care for reality in our judgements. If you don't, you will have knowledge that is separated from human understanding, at which point people will throw up their hands at the bewildering technological world and want to return to being monkeys. If you don't think you need people, only knowledge, you don't have science, because science is about corroborating independent observations of the same phenomena, and if you don't have anyone observing with you, agreeing with you, challenging and correcting your assumptions, your ability to comprehend will be like that or a schizo, trapped inside the ideas of their own mind.

Be a scientist, a real scientific theoretician and skeptical inquirer, after the molds of Popper, Newton, de Montaigne, and Pyrrho. Don't be Bill Nye, an engineer; you are better than that.
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 No.366126

>>366122
I'm gonna need sauce for the song.
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 No.366218

File: 1625843531421.png ( 66.12 KB , 500x477 , p99m4uZxQD1vn479ho1_500.png )

>>366126
I found it on /b/
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 No.366276

>>365655
Pretty much this, if you don't understand math you're just lazy.
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 No.366278

>>366111
What's metaphysics anon?
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 No.366280

>>366009
Marx, Darwin, Einstein, Hawking.
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 No.366282

>>

 No.366393

>>349604
>All of the experiments which are taken to justify the Copenhagen interpretation actually rely on "observations" or recordings by such inanimate devices, so at this point there is nothing special about quantum mechanics that relies on human observers. If we were to say that a photodetector camera only really recorded something when a person looks at the result on a screen, then we are back in the sort of Berkeley type subjectivism where things cease to exist when we no longer look at them. This is absurd and no sort of foundation for scientific research.
nobody in physics claims this. an "observer" is just a convenient shorthand for someone who causes an interaction with an object to be measured. the object's wave function remains uncollapsed until an act of measurement, and to perform the measurement you must interact with object. in this case a random photon from space collapsing the wave function of an object in a superposition of states also acts as "measurement".
>How do you know that the photon had no position prior to it being detected? All that you definitely know from the experiment is that a particle was detected in a specific position, what is the basis for assuming that it did not have definite positions all along its path? It is in the end just a philosophical assumption, since under pilot wave theory or Bohm theory, particles do follow definite paths.
the only claim made in this direction is that the position of the photon is (according to our modern understanding of physics) physically impossible to record with certainty as its momentum increases. if you make wild claims such as "photon has x position no matter the velocity" then you also have to be able to justify its size and centre of mass no matter the velocity too. but how can you do this when a photon has no defined boundary and cannot be accurately measured due to its wave properties? it is after all a matter wave, not a point in space. the whole point is that it has been shown that position physically (not as a question of inadequacy of measurement) becomes increasingly fuzzy as distances decrease, until such a point where you can't make a 100% accurate prediction of an object's position, it is simply physically impossible due to the wave nature of matter.

you can of course dispute this, but you better provide evidence while doing so
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 No.366463

>>366393
This is legitimately where Angloism is justified because language allows a person (the guy you're replying to) to make a load a fuzzy claims that miss the point you were trying to make.
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 No.366475

If you think that science will abolish metaphysics (ontology) you have no idea about either of these things.
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 No.366482

>>366122
>Anon you have to consider that the vast majority of people have fuzzy caveman logic brains and the only way you can get them to actually believe you (and you need to do that in order to get funding for research) is to fool them out of their anti-scientific brains with analogical exposition.
Elitist drivel, i have a fuzzy logic caveman brain too, and also I'm not a priest, i don't care to dominate the minds of other people, i want the opposite, to remove mental shackles. Rulers that don't fund proper sciences will seize to be rulers. Funding has to be made compatible with science, not the other way around. Reality is what it is, and it will not bend for anybody.
>If you don't do that you end up with the tragedy of New Atheism where everyone paints their own headcanon on the objectives of secularism and no one cooperates to reach a unified body of thought once they've achieved the goal of discrediting religious orthodoxy.
The tragedy of new atheism was that Hitch sided with US Neo-cons who propped up lots of religious fundamentalists that more than anything destroyed secularism in the ME, the one that looks like Ben Stiller said Zionist should use nukes which objectively makes him worse than the Iranian Ayatollahs who said nuking people is bad and Dawkins tweeted support for Eugenics which isn't just a incomprehensibly stupid political statement, it's also not compatible with a scientific world view. They became the stereotype of the evil scientists. The only decent one was Daniele Danette, he stuck to his guns and remained a science communicator that actually practiced what he preached.
I don't understand why you want a unified body of thought, how are you supposed to find anything new that way ? how do you keep clerical power from hijacking the authority of science ?
>Remember that science is corroborative, so if someone hypes people into delusions through the use of stories that enough people believe in, they will actually think it's scientific even when it has no actual backing in rigorous experimentation.
So what ? hype and delusions don't work , rigorous scientific knowledge does work and shit that works wins every time.
>That's deep vulnerability in promoting scientific methodology as something that is able to stand as truth alone so you need to embed it in a metaphysics of some form to compensate for the fact that human beings don't really care for reality in our judgements.
The scientific method is meant to be wielded like a blunt instrument to break down bullshit. Reality is hard to understand, there is nothing you can do to bridge the gap to intuition, that's always going to be a little unpleasant for anybody but a few geniuses whose brains match up with reality. But who cares, being trapped by superstitious fears is so much worse than the little bit of frustration you experience when you have a hard time understanding something in science.
> If you don't, you will have knowledge that is separated from human understanding, at which point people will throw up their hands at the bewildering technological world and want to return to being monkeys.
Accurate knowledge will always be separate from human understanding, your head will always contain an inaccurate reflection of the world. People want technology they can control, if you try to use technology to control people, they try to return to monk. You are never going to make a techno religion that will make people accept being corporate serfs, that will always end with people throwing feces at you and smashing technology. Religious manufacturing consent for exploitation ended with agrarianism.
>If you don't think you need people, only knowledge, you don't have science, because science is about corroborating independent observations of the same phenomena, and if you don't have anyone observing with you, agreeing with you, challenging and correcting your assumptions
This is me challenging your assumption that it is possible to combine science with pseudo religion on a societal level. You can have individual religious scientists, but on a societal level, you will never combine the laboratory with a cathedral. You can't combine a dark age mindset with science. If you insist on your video game reality you will not have science, you will have mystified people trying to write magic spells on scrolls, except that the rituals will be updated for the digital age.

>Be a scientist, a real scientific theoretician and skeptical inquirer, after the molds of Popper, Newton, de Montaigne, and Pyrrho. Don't be Bill Nye, an engineer; you are better than that.

I don't care what you think about me, because you lost my respect, i think it's cruel to trick people into thinking they live in a video game, and because your post has this threatening undertone of being excommunicated from the community of retarded pseudo scientists. Why would i care, religion is unbearable to me regardless if you dress it up with technology metaphors, the word of god or code of god, same difference.
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 No.366503

>>366482
>you will never combine the laboratory with a cathedral
Have you seen how mad scientists get over their disagreements? It already is a cathedral, as a result of capitalism. You just don't acknowledge it exist.
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 No.366518

File: 1625855648455.jpg ( 43.59 KB , 686x324 , 0f4-1.jpg )

>>366482
>hype and delusions don't work , rigorous scientific knowledge does work and shit that works wins every time.
Second, pic related.

>I don't care what you think about me, because you lost my respect, i think it's cruel to trick people into thinking they live in a video game

I give a shit about the direction you're taking because it will save you future suffering. Since you rescind your respect, the only rational option is to reciprocate and stop giving a shit about having an ephemeral conversation with you on an anonymous imageboard. As soon as people disagree with you, you get offended, so while you say you want to work with other people, you're only in it to enthuse your own ego. Later on, you'll wonder why you don't get through to people. Adieu.
>>

 No.366601

>>366503
>Have you seen how mad scientists get over their disagreements?
I don't understand that reference.
Mad scientists ?
>It already is a cathedral, as a result of capitalism. You just don't acknowledge it exist.
I know what you mean, i acknowledge that it exists, i just don't acknowledge that its doing science. Science happens in spite of it.
>>366518
>Second, pic related.
Sure large number of stupid people have power, but it doesn't mean that believe systems can overcome reality.
>I give a shit about the direction you're taking because it will save you future suffering.
All the available directions within class society cause me suffering, but the ones that fuck with reality perception are especially egregious.
>As soon as people disagree with you, you get offended, so while you say you want to work with other people,
You don't want to work with other people, you want to work through other people by building a thought prison around their heads, because you think people are irredeemably stupid. I think that people are redeemable and capable of accepting a world without a perception filter.
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 No.366603

>>366503
>Have you seen how mad scientists get over their disagreements?
They make predictions and do experiments?
>>

 No.366718

>>366482
>Reality is what it is, and it will not bend for anybody.

reality is full of psychos that will burn you at the stake for hurting their feelings
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 No.366725

>>366518
>you're only in it to enthuse your own ego
It definitely seems like some posters have a psychological issue with admitting that science is agnostic. Its like when you challenge conservatives and they think you are assaulting their identity. It can be difficult to acknowledge that you aren't in control as much as you would imagine.
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 No.366727

>>366601
> capable of accepting a world without a perception filter
What do you mean by this? Have you read Huxley's Doors of Perception?

Have you read any Zizek or Althusser? Most people today say that ideology is not something you can escape.
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 No.366733

File: 1625862954887.jpg ( 45.4 KB , 600x378 , C1A703p.jpg )

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 No.366734

>>366601
> a world without a perception filter
Ah yes, a world without subjectivity as such.
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 No.366755

>>366733
This is a joke if you couldn't tell and it is funny. He's a pop scientist so part of the shtick is to be entertaining. Shocking, I know.
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 No.366771

>>366755
Oh I see. It must be the jokes not coming through in text. Maybe OP was just joking too and not severely misunderstanding what science is.
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 No.366774

File: 1625864477886.jpg ( 40.97 KB , 922x781 , D2vAQEsWkAAHr-t.jpg )

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 No.366775

File: 1625864477882.jpg ( 40.97 KB , 922x781 , D2vAQEsWkAAHr-t.jpg )

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 No.366798

>>366755
>Builds whole career on being a retard who doesn't know what science is
>We do le little bit of trolling
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 No.366831

File: 1625867380550.png ( 753.22 KB , 715x576 , 1536113849054.png )

I wish I wasn't a science brainlet
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 No.366840

>>366831
Just read some basic introductory books on the topics that interest you lmao
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 No.366861

File: 1625868984358.png ( 388.89 KB , 379x512 , ClipboardImage.png )

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 No.367493

>>366601
>I don't understand that reference. Mad scientists ?
The most impactful story about how painful it can be to defend something that is obviously plainly correct against the delusion of a mass of people, that included very well informed people, is the story of Ignaz Semmelweis. He was a Hungarian doctor in the 1800s who proposed new antiseptic measures, including that hands should be washed before surgery, based on experimental observation. The entire medical scientific community at the time RUINED his life, because he had the gall to suggest doctors were not already sanitary, and since it flew in the face of the prevailing miasma theory of disease. They didn't stop to consider that they were wrong, just that they were right on the intertia of their own authority. His findings were confirmed by contemporaries, but no one stood up for him in public:

>Despite various publications of results where hand washing reduced mortality to below 1%, Semmelweis's observations conflicted with the established scientific and medical opinions of the time and his ideas were rejected by the medical community. He could offer no acceptable scientific explanation for his findings, and some doctors were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands and mocked him for it. In 1865, the increasingly outspoken Semmelweis supposedly suffered a nervous breakdown and was committed to an asylum by his colleagues. In the asylum he was beaten by the guards. He died 14 days later, from a gangrenous wound on his right hand that may have been caused by the beating. Semmelweis's practice earned widespread acceptance only years after his death, when Louis Pasteur confirmed the germ theory, and Joseph Lister, acting on the French microbiologist's research, practised and operated using hygienic methods, with great success.


>Semmelweis' advice on chlorine washings was probably more influential than he realized. Many doctors, particularly in Germany, appeared quite willing to experiment with the practical hand washing measures that he proposed—although virtually everyone rejected his basic and ground-breaking theoretical innovation: that the disease had only one cause, lack of cleanliness.[65] Gustav Adolf Michaelis, a professor at a maternity institution in Kiel, replied positively to Semmelweis' suggestions, but eventually committed suicide, feeling responsible for the death of his own cousin, whom he had examined after she gave birth.[66]


>Only belatedly did his observational evidence gain wide acceptance; more than twenty years later, Louis Pasteur's work offered a theoretical explanation for Semmelweis' observations: the germ theory of disease. As such, the Semmelweis story is often used in university courses with epistemology content, e.g. philosophy of science courses—demonstrating the virtues of empiricism or positivism and providing a historical account of which types of knowledge count as scientific (and thus accepted) knowledge, and which do not. C. Hempel, just to mention one, dedicated the first pages of his Philosophy of Natural Science to Semmelweis, arguing that the latter's method is typical of contemporary scientific research, in that the doctor framed a series of hypotheses, verifying them through falsifying experiments in accordance with Hempel's deductive-nomological model.[67] It has been seen as an irony that Semmelweis' critics considered themselves positivists, but even positivism suffers problems in the face of theories which seem magical or superstitious, such as the idea that "corpse particles" might turn a person into a corpse, with no causal mechanism being stipulated, after a simple contact. To his contemporaries, Semmelweis seemed to be reverting to the speculative theories of earlier decades that were so repugnant to his positivist contemporaries.[68]


>The so-called Semmelweis reflex—a metaphor for a certain type of human behaviour characterized by reflex-like rejection of new knowledge because it contradicts entrenched norms, beliefs, or paradigms—is named after Semmelweis, whose ideas were ridiculed and rejected by his contemporaries.


Even Einstein despite his ingenuity was unable to stomach the proposals of quantum theory, famously writing "God does not play dice with the universe," in the metaphorical sense. Everyone, like you put, including you and I have flawed modes of thought. We have to even out those disparities somehow, we're not trying to make them spooky like religious obscurantists. If I was trying to work through and down at other people, to trap them, I would only be fooling myself because the only way to arrive at a scientific truth is to have a person with the same if not greater level of understand verify something I have put forward. To have science, I HAVE to operate on an equitable basis, to be able to assert myself in the face of baseless declarations, but also to defer in the face of sufficient proof.

The big tragedy I was referring to in New Atheism was not that of the personal failings Hitchens, Harris, and Dawkins, but when the community took a self-destructive turn with its inability to agree on the future of the movement in Atheism Plus in the early 2010s. They weren't sure if their path going forward was to continue defending science in the face of religious bigotry or to move on to general issues of social justice and inequity as a result of dogmatic attitudes. In fact, Dawkins current behaviour is a reaction to what happened in the early 2010s. Despite being an excellent evolutionary biologist he has a very narrow focus and refuses to engage with anything without the highbrow English propriety filter though which he views the world.

Lastly if you want to see an example of bad science in action, I had mentioned Bill Nye as a classic example previously for a reason. See in this video, he and Neil deGrasse Tyson were invited to judge the refutation of a video that was put out earlier of some scientists' experiment, by a university professor. Nye instantly, reflexively thinks the professor is right following his explanation before any experimentation is performed. Even Tyson with his shit hot takes like >>366733 is wise to stay neutral. This is to be expected because Nye went to school for engineering, wherein they are taught that things work but not necessarily a framework to seek WHY they work. Having a framework of the world that is open to limitless potential for critical inquiry is what I hold to be substantial, the greatness of, science. Scientists must avoid the tribal mentality of humans to circle the wagons whenever the are challenged in order to preserve the spirit of truth-seeking. Science defuses the superstitious not by having a frontline, but a defense-in-depth, that it floods into every corner and is able to devise predictive truths where a religious man says there can be no further inquiry, that it is final. If you concentrate on a hard frontline, you will have a World War I esque rhetorical bloodbath.

Some more content that is in the vein of and contributive to this post:
https://thebaffler.com/salvos/degrasse-tyson-kriss-atheists
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_ArVh3Cj9rw
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 No.367500

>>367493
And note, Veritasium then goes on to perform good, self-aware science in the rest of the video, showing how much more fulfilling scientific praxis is than authoritative preaching.
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 No.367515

>>367493
Also lastly, the point of analogical exposition is to give people the form of something before the mechanics, a first-order cognitive approximation, like how we teach the Bohr-Rutherford model of the atom to students before the valence shell and quantum mechanics, even though to modern science it is so simplistic as to be effectively wrong. The danger of it is what happened in history with religion and can still happen today when class and power is involved: to set the analogy as the end, the cause and the root, "God," instead of a temporary and ultimately disposable step in unfolding context. Unfolding context is probably what we as all conscious beings find our satisfaction in. As we advance our scientific knowledge, all that we know today will be child's play to the people of the future. As long as we are what we are (who knows with transhumanism), this flawed process with abide alongside us.
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 No.367517

>>367515
*will abide

I said I wouldn't be back, but I know you can understand.
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 No.367574

>>366709
Hawking wasn't really wrong, philosophy is now downstream from scientific and technical fields, in a information flow sense.
Philosophy is trailing scientific research, they process the information that comes out of experimental sciences like physics and neurology.
That didn't used to be the case, just look at atomists who made conceptual claims that reality was made out of particles many centuries before scientific research had the tools to find particles.

They're building a giant lazer now that can rip a hole into spacetime and can create matter from energy, and that will probably yield new insights about reality. And then philosophers are going to use that information for philosophical claims.
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 No.367582

File: 1625904125525.jpg ( 25.15 KB , 500x375 , Don't_forget_you're_here_f….jpg )

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 No.367593

>>366718
>reality is full of psychos that will burn you at the stake for hurting their feelings
Science is more useful to state-craft than zealots, that is why all states face a strong selection pressure to suppress which-hunting and enable science. In reality that means actually existing theocratic power that can send out psychotic zealots to murderburn scientists, are most likely going to be be negated by death squats from the state.
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 No.367598

>>367593
Unless the state is captured by capitalists that want to hoard the benefits of scientific discoveries.
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 No.367602

File: 1625905868839.gif ( 229.04 KB , 356x200 , 5e96f1f9bd2673b50ad57c8ec7….gif )

>>367574
>Philosophy is trailing scientific research, they process the information that comes out of experimental sciences like physics and neurology.
>That didn't used to be the case, just look at atomists who made conceptual claims that reality was made out of particles many centuries before scientific research had the tools to find particles.
Our scientific knowledge has overshot the capabilities of the human mind to grasp. We need to upgrade.
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 No.375952

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOAcQCFNtbo
Lee Smolin - How Can Space and Time be the Same Thing?
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 No.377234

File: 1626273446761.jpg ( 162.91 KB , 2000x1000 , tesla.jpg )

>“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.” - Nikola Tesla
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 No.377331

File: 1626279172537.jpg ( 185.28 KB , 1475x885 , tesla's pigeon.jpg )

>>377234
Maybe we should not use Tesla to make arguments from authority.
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 No.377798

>>377331
tesla was a based retard
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 No.379173

>>377331
He also thought spacetime couldn't be curved and atoms weren't made from more fundamental particles.
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 No.379208

>>377331
>Tesla was depressed because his favorite pet died
>Just like any American middle class whitey would be when little doggerino good boi dies.

Dear God what a retard! Let's strip him of ANY credibility.
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 No.379828

>>379208
He was a genius inventor that deserves his hero status, if you abuse it to push pseudo science you will damage his reputation.
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 No.379833

>>379173
>He also thought spacetime couldn't be curved and atoms weren't made from more fundamental particles.
No he didn't retard.

>>379828
>He was a genius inventor that deserves his hero status, if you abuse it to push pseudo science you will damage his reputation.
>>>Reddit
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 No.379836

>>379173
>>379173
>>379833
Also:

Was Einstein wrong? Why some astrophysicists are questioning the theory of space-time
May 22, 2021

>To better understand the universe, we may need to kill off one of the most important theories of all time.


https://www.space.com/end-of-einstein-space-time
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 No.379839

>>379836
Thought this was an interesting relevant quote since this thread is titled "meta-physics"

>Tesla said this about relativity: “[Einstein’s theory of relativity is] a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king… its exponents are brilliant men, but they are meta-physicists rather than scientists.”


Meta-physics is just a dumb sciencey buzzword for fake.
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 No.379842

>>379833
>Reddit
what non argument.
trying to do science on "non-physical phenomena", is going to lead to pseudo science.
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 No.379859

It didn't? Metaphysical woo woo remained popular for decades after quantum mechanics. The questions asked by metaphysics are not disproven by physicalism, or any particular observation therein. The only problem is pseuds and the stench of positivism trying to make a point very, very badly. Anyway, arguments against metaphysics predate QM.

>>348275
There is an actual observation and theory about matter and energy that QM is trying to answer, but in the vulgar imagination all talk of matter is replaced with this dogmatic view in which technocratic experts are treated like scripture. You're not allowed to ask why someone is making the supposition that there are such things as atoms. You would think if kids were taught the atomic theory, they would talk about Dalton's experiments and why he came the conclusion that atoms exist. But if you get the low-level explanation, it's just "atoms exist because we say so and it's in the Bible". Maybe the way it is taught changed, but science was taught in this extremely dogmatic way on purpose. It gets worse with biology, which is especially bad since biological cells are much more complex than particles and biological science rests on shakier foundations.

>>348341
Uh… no. This is what I'm talking about when I say science is taught in the most ridiculous way possible. I'm not bright at all, but the way science was taught never sat well with me. I had to learn from conversations because the schools do not teach and we live in the Blackest Reaction. I shouldn't have to, if information was presented in any sort of coherent framework, but the foundation of fascist education is that science is replaced with "The Science".
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 No.379870

>>348482
Reminder that "molecular biology" was a buzzword invented by the Rockefeller think tank guys, to attempt to further reify the genetic theory / eugenics thing they wanted to do. They have almost no idea about how the genetic material creates the finished organism. It's basically at the level of swapping out strands of DNA and hoping to find correlations. They've been clinging for dear life to Down Syndrome (hence the extreme hatred of those people, the modern day lepers of humanity). Eugenics hasn't found any further "success stories" despite over a century of trying. And then, Down Syndrome is a birth defect from an extra chromosome, so you never actually root it out.
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 No.379897

>>379836
>Modular space-time theory can accommodate such behavior by redefining what it means to be separated. If space-time emerges from the quantum world, then being closer in a quantum sense is more fundamental than being close in a physical sense
That's basically inventing more spacial dimensions, physical space and quantum space.
They replaced Einstein's Space-Time with Space-Space-Time.
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 No.380412

>>

 No.380806

>>379836
Do understand how physics is done and what models are? Einstein isn't wrong his models are just incomplete.

>>379208
Tesla was a brilliant crank who lost his mind in old age, and a far better engineer than a physicist. Many of his technological and scientific ideas have been proven impractical or false respectively. Quit treating him like some scientific Jesus, he was extremely important for contribution to electrical engineering, but is probably one of the most overhyped scientists in history.
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 No.380889

>>379859
>But if you get the low-level explanation, it's just "atoms exist because we say so and it's in the Bible". Maybe the way it is taught changed, but science was taught in this extremely dogmatic way on purpose.
That wasn't what I was taught. I was given lessons on the gold foil experiment, rutherford, etc.
I have no idea what hellhole school you went to but I was never stopped from asking the hard questions in science classes and often encouraged by my teachers to look up information in the school library on named experiments that dealt with questions I had asked that went beyond the scope of the current lesson.
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 No.380903

>>380889
>I have no idea what hellhole school
American school most likely.
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 No.380922

>>380889
General ed classes. They aren't interested in telling you the history of these things, but then most of the people in that class are not curious and don't want to be there at all. But from what I saw of the advanced kids, it isn't much better, and it isn't any better in any other country. The dogmatic approach to science is demanded by the political and economic order we live in, and by the dominant institutions. Even if they will really say "well these are the experiments", mass education and propaganda involves a deliberate reduction of scientific knowledge to impress upon people that "The Science" is a priesthood. Many of the advanced kids get a more elaborate version of this religion, and selection for "advanced" status has more to do with obedience to the regime and inherited status than any actual ability. So, intelligence itself is associated with this incredulous following of dogma, and things which are not hard to figure out - that doctors primarily scam the shit out of the suckers who think they're getting treatment - are mystified and we're not allowed to say what is plainly happening. A vast conspiracy demands we stay silent and refrain from acknowledging the atrocities of eugenics. If we did acknowledge those atrocities, then rebellion would be demanded and a lot of heads must roll.
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 No.380929

>>380889
For the really low underclass, there IS no "education" as suck. Special education classes are akin to the methods used by slavery to break slaves into the system, by promoting indolence and the most extreme incuriousity. Some gems I got in there were "you learn 90% of your vocabulary before age 6", "6 and 7 go into a shoe and then they're 42", and other maladaptive methods that were intended for further retard people who were struggling. If you dared fight it, you would be humiliated and punished. Oh, and no private school will take you without a bribe, so you are FORCED to take the so-called public education or nothing at all, and you are effectively marked down and forbidden from any further education under ANY circumstances. Employers will also be aware of your status, and datamining has secured the panopticon. Regular hunting, slave patrols, and routine brutality towards this underclass is mandated and eagerly embraced by the majority. This is why I get to hear, day after day, people who openly announce they want to rape, enslave, and kill me and everyone like me, and I have to accept this as normal and desirable. If this world-system were to crack even one bit, it would undermine literally everything about the social order. Their sense of themselves rests on making sure I fail, and especially that I am not seen succeeding or even experiencing some small bit of happiness. Eugenics demands such a world, and demands expanding the underclass, in order to modify behavior and maintain its segregation of society.
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 No.380955

>>380889
I should qualify this though that at the time, I was over trying to learn anything and was already suicidal. I was long past caring that I was being denied a place in the world. I just wanted it to be over, knowing that there is no hope and there is no end, and the best I can ever have is some small happiness in private, away from people and society, the beast of screaming eugenics that permeated the air and the land and the sea. There is no happiness except the small shred that could be found alone, and I have not changed in that view to this day. Fixing society would only mean that the most egregious elements are kept at bay, because keeping eugenics will mean nothing but ruin for everyone. That's the best that can be hoped for. The thought that the state, an instrument of class rule, could be any path to the good, is laughable to the experience of the vast majority of humanity. So is this infantile belief in "natural social order" which tells us people are intrinsically collective (and thus they must, somehow, obey a clear hierarchical authority commanding the people like the nerve endings of a body, the corporatist view which is taken for granted by far too many).

That said, the information was out there, and I still had enough curiosity to ask what all this science meant, even at that time. But I sure as hell wasn't learning it at school, or through any of the authorities. We live in a fascist country, in a fascist planet and a fascist society. All other forms of thought have become completely inadmissible in the social sphere. It is only now that the formal political system is matching what has been a reality for the past several decades, that has been pushed very aggressively and has a larger (but not majoritarian) base that is consciously elevated and empowered for the fascist, eugenicist creed. In the long term, the fascists want to make scientific information completely inaccessible, and put an end to what little scientific knowledge does grow. "Science" as a useful method is anathema to the values of eugenist society. There is only "The Science", and the use of that terminology is a deliberate assault on the scientific method as something accessible to any rational person. Those considered "super-rational", above the general populace who are deemed retarded (and they consider anyone who isn't one of them retarded, just look at how much they shit on normal people), have the same interest in defending this madness as those who were invested in any other slavery. They utter their filth not out of zealous belief, but with a shit-eating grin. They KNOW exactly what they are doing and brag about it. The sadism is central to this eugenicist nightmare world, and sadism is promoted to the highest of virtues, one promoted in mass entertainment. The futility of any decency is emphasized over and over again.

Anyway, even if schools had any interest in teaching anything - and I get the sense that they're disappointed that the intellectual rot is affecting their research slaves and their ability to develop new weapons - the influence of eugenic rule and its incentives promotes retardation. It demands science be made proprietary and the domain of an elite few. And when you do look at science, its institutions are obsessive about control and eliminating any barrier between the master's will and all the natural objects of the world. It never was about some pursuit of "pure knowledge". Science does offer us a means to accumulate knowledge of the natural world, but like any intellectual production, the institutions of science are essentially religious institutions. The popularization of science was only part intended to allow some democratization of knowledge, and this has been replaced steadily with dogmatic science, where people are lumps of flesh to be processed and worked on by the will of the philosopher-kings. That's where you get this moronic positivist drivel about quantum mechanics saying anything about metaphysics.
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 No.381325

File: 1626432528579.png ( 81.28 KB , 236x280 , Hom.PNG )

>>379870
>They have almost no idea about how the genetic material creates the finished organism. It's basically at the level of swapping out strands of DNA and hoping to find correlations.
Picrel is a quick reminder for Eugene
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 No.381335

>>381325
They still don't know what the DNA is doing to create the finished product. They're literally just saying "here's a snippet of DNA that correlates to a think, but it just works, trust us". If you actually asked questions about the development of an organism though, you're forced to acknowledge environmental effects, developmental disorders, and so on.
This becomes problematic when you seek to create a genetic caste system based on the belief that developmental disorders are "purely genetic". Eugenics demands of the lower castes the most abject slavery. If this slavery were not hereditary, it would undermine the eugenic institutions, and thus the lynchpin of ruling class dogmas. It would open the door to outright rebellion, and the Galtonians being purged from power. Since the Galtonians are responsible for many, many atrocities - two world wars and working on a third at the least - retribution would be most exemplary if it ever came to pass.
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 No.381417

>>381335
>They still don't know what the DNA is doing to create the finished product
The process hasn't been fully mapped out yet, but it clearly is guided by certain sets of genes.
>"here's a snippet of DNA that correlates to a think, but it just works, trust us"
But it works lmao. We can make animals grow limbs where they aren't supposed to grow. Not understanding every step that happens along the way, doesn't disprove that or should we start denying the existence of black holes, just because we don't fully understand them yet?
>you're forced to acknowledge environmental effects, developmental disorders, and so on
That's like crashing your car into a wall and complaining to the manufacturer, that the blue prints no longer line up with your cars new arrangement of parts.
Take your meds
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 No.381470

>>381417
If you're proposing that genes are like computer code, and then claiming that you just mash fragments of code together and hope it makes a program, you'd be called a shitty software engineer.

Also, your claim that you can just insert a limb into an animal by splicing DNA is patently bullshit. For one, what you can splice with current DNA editing techniques is very, very small fragments.

Genetics has stuck to the fruit fly because the results can't be reproduced in other organisms. It's often no more than a just-so story, and even then they're still only looking for correlations. They're desperately clinging to the fruit fly experiments to salvage the sinking ship that is genetics.

Finally - those are still clearly antennae, rather than legs. They even have to fudge what the results of the experiments are to maintain the "genes are like blueprints and lego blocks" myth. Insect antennae iirc can be quite variant - I'm not the biology expert. The geneticists are still stuck with trial and error in a hope to find what, if anything, prompts the growth of antennae in a particular way. They are unlikely to find any answers with the paradigm they have adopted.
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 No.381489

If you want to know what Quantum Mechanics is about read this book

>This book is both apparently ambitious and modest in its aims. Ambitious, as it attempts to achieve something that has been declared impossible by some of the greatest physicists since the 1920s: making sense of what quantum mechanics really means. But modest, because that goal was actually already attained many years ago in the work of Louis de Broglie, David Bohm, and John Bell. I will simply try to explain what they achieved.


>This book is written especially for all those who do not see what the theory means. No prior knowledge of quantum mechanics is required. Most of the technical parts have been put in appendices, which can be skipped.
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 No.381496

>>380955
eugene write a book.
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 No.381505

>>381417
<Remember, genes are NOT blueprints. This means you can't, for example, insert "the genes for an elephant's trunk" into a giraffe and get a giraffe with a trunk. There are no genes for trunks. What you CAN do with genes is chemistry, since DNA codes for chemicals. 
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 No.381510

File: 1626444530293.png ( 19.92 KB , 162x197 , AC_Fac_Ldr_015.png )

>>381505
My boy Zakharov.
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 No.381511

>>381489
Based Anon. Will read.
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 No.381592

File: 1626448884610.png ( 215.85 KB , 609x516 , fly.png )

>>381470
Look Eugene, the fly had legs for antenna, your sophistry won't disprove that. They even gave it an extra pair of wings while they were at it.
>Genetics has stuck to the fruit fly because the results can't be reproduced in other organisms
Genetics has stuck to the fruit fly because it is the ideal animal for this kind of research. Similar experiments have also been done on mouse embryos.
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 No.382120

>>381592
So you made freaks. What's the advantage?
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 No.382135

>>382120
Not them, but I think he's just trying to prove a point to eugene.
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 No.382145

>>382120
The point is that there are material advantages to experimenting with fruit flies, such as their quick life cycle which makes studying the generational effects on them ideal, not that genetics is some kind of voodoo quackery.
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 No.382147

>>382135
I want a material justification for engineering a dude with five dicks ASAP.
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 No.382165

>>382145
You didn't answer the claim I made though, in that you don't really know why "legs" grow there. You just put in the DNA fragment and saw there were "legs". There's no translation from "genetic code" to "finished product". Usually when you speak of computer code, you can disassemble it down to single machine instructions, and you know what those machine instructions are. You'd have to insert a computer in the cell and then the effects of feeding it the algorithm of DNA. If the DNA=genes theory is true, this should be fairly trivial, or at least some forward progress would be made. But all we have to this day are correlations - likely because the "computations" being output involve something more than DNA, and are contingent on other cells of the body. When you're talking about even the structure of antennae, you're talking about a process which is more than DNA computation. Perhaps you could break it down to DNA computation in an ideal simulation, but we don't live in ideal simulations, and you're left with the question of how much environment affects such development. Believe it or not, geneticists do ask this question if they are honest scientists, but they still lack particularly good answers. Therefore, what can be gleaned from DNA is not very much, except for correlations of traits that we just assume correspond to "genes" of the ideal sort. In short, the vulgar interpretation is just seeking to made Mendel real by saying "DNA is computer-gene, trust us guise". The actual explanation is much more complex, but it would start to ask questions of how much these genetic theories are actually worth, especially when eugenics makes bold claims about hereditary genius (and did so as its first objective, per Galton). Those eugenicist claims are still held by the intellectual classes to this day, and they're never giving them up without a fight.
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 No.382238

I finally understand why people hate this eugenics-kun retard.
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 No.382268

>>382165
Eugene, have you ever shared your origin story of how you became to hate eugenics, as you understand it, with this passion of thousand suns? Like, why can you only find happiness alone away from other people? Not trying to be a dick if you don't want to talk about personal trauma, just trying to keep up on /leftypol/ lore.
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 No.382452

>>382268
Honestly, I've hated it in my bones for as long as I can remember, even before I knew history and what things were. I remember being put in a special school that was a nightmarish, silent place, in which all the problematic kids were warehoused. Day in, day out of the same rudimentary math problems. No instruction, no meaning, no direction, no hope. I remember being punished harshly for uttering a single word. I wrote in multiplication problems (this was me at age 4-5) because I was bored and I thought showing them would get me out of the retard box. There was no instruction in language that I recall whatsoever. No alphabet teaching (fortunately I had learned those letters many months before), not even an attempt to teach grammar, and since you couldn't talk it's hard to imagine how anyone could learn any English in that environment. The only thing I do remember is that it was so quiet you could hear a pin drop, and I have to believe every single one of those warehouse kids were traumatized so that they don't dare speak in anything above a whisper. I vaguely recall aides supposedly helping kids, but this was sporadic and it could not constitute any sort of meaningful education. I think it was more a matter of the aides working with the most difficult kids with severe learning disabilities, basically teaching them how to shit and piss (this is a thing schools have to do in the severe cases).

There's a longer story of hatred, breakdowns, preferring to rot away rather than endure the sight of people, with basically no progress until 6 years ago. Then I hit rock bottom, told myself my life was effectively over, and indulged more in history and theory simply so I would condemn every single effort of humanity and what it has led to. Learning about history has had ups and downs and given me a little vigor on occasion, but over the past couple of years I have become more convinced than ever that humanity really has chosen fascism and eugenics in the end, and that they've really done it to themselves. There is only in the end one plausible explanation - the same thing that had disgusted me to my bones so many years ago. I had accepted long before that the worst mistake I ever made was letting other people tell me my instinct and first convictions were wrong. Had I accepted that the hatred in my bones was correct from the start, instead of believing the lies the whole world was feeding me, I and everyone else would have been spared so much misery. All existing philosophy and ideology was skirting around something that to my experience was very basic, and while I had a little hope for communism once I started reading it, it turned out my first instincts (after debullshitting the anticommunist propaganda I halfheartedly believed) were right, that the communists really were far afield from what the real question was. I felt in 2019 that this would go on forever, and humanity would keep on having no indication that conditions had changed, even though I had seen rapid decay since 2000. The one upside about coronavirus is that it has vindicated me, when the eugenics and everything I loathe about this entire social order is so in-your-face and obvious that even normies are seeing the eugenics and calling it such. There were faint rumblings in the few years before that there was something really foul afoot and the march of eugenics was becoming clear, and that there were some people who were seeing just how dire the situation was. Those people were more on the left, or what I thought was the left. One of the bad things about corona world is that it has shown the left's fecklessness and just how many are really on the side of humanity, which is far fewer than I expected. Even when I disagreed with the communists and socialists, I believed that many of them were still decent or at least aligned to some decency and that the growing socialist wave would have resulted in meaningful demands. I've been disappointed with how rapidly so many on the left carried water for the most reactionary agendas, and how it became all too clear in 2020. I was never amenable to anything at all on the right (despite the accusations that I'm a secret Republican), and if you ever see Michigan Republicans you've seen some of the worst specimens of humanity. I have noticed at least that there are a few with rightoid sympathies who seem to get what's up and that it's time to worry, but these people have been left in the lurch by Trump and everyone that they thought were on their side. I am still surprised with how quickly the fashoid right sucked up to the regime, after their performance in January. It should make that Trumpoid bitch dying more insulting to them, because she died for Trump's faggotry and nothing else. It's a monument to stupidity and all the waste. Wiser people tried to warn them that Trump was a con man, but they like sheep went right to the slaughter, and undermined their position to agitate against the regime. They can't help themselves.
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 No.382500

File: 1626476975522.png ( 265.88 KB , 500x331 , iw9ek7lnxfb71.png )

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 No.382505

>>382452
I'm sorry this happened to you. Amerikkka treats those it deems 'not normal' in the most inhuman way possible. It makes sense that you hate eugenics this much, since the abuse you suffered originated from it.
You are still wrong about molecular biology tho
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 No.382602

>>382505
It's not just an American thing. Eugenics is a global movement and its class basis is a force in technocratic society. In the end, you could only hope that the new classes, the professionals, were enlightened enough to see the trap of their educational institutions and the threat full eugenics would pose to their very survival. By and large, they did not choose wisely, and this has been fatal. It all comes down to this crisis decade, and the pieces are in place for this new class to choose eugenics overwhelmingly, and with it, the last possibility of freedom from class rule will be abolished for a very long time.
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 No.382614

>>382505
Should also add that molecular biology is purely a buzzword. You don't need "molecular biology" to ascribe to genetics or the existence of DNA. It's a way PR draws a parallel to the controversy around quantum physics (see above). It's a way of telling people it's at such a small level that only the experts (those experts advanced by the oligarchy specifically, since many scientists were skeptical about this initiative or at most knew it was just PR and kept on doing what they were doing). The deeper meaning of "molecular biology" is that it is completing a cycle in which human life and human thought are fused with the fundamental building blocks of life itself - that is, that we are to treat DNA as molecules that form the true basis of all life in the universe, a fundamental form of matter. It's going beyond just the genetic theory and moving to a wholly DNA-centered view of life that would be alien even to the early geneticists. Early genetics supposed genes were a cause of life's hereditary traits, but they were never assigned the kind of weight "molecular biology" assigned to it. If you remember the really stupid and infantile nature vs. nuture argument (one originated in eugenics btw), so-called molecular biology is staking its claim that nature completely trumps nurture, and that life itself is nothing more than genes competing in pure Social Darwinism. This reaches its culmination in the 2000s with Dawkins and the extreme mystification of the gene in the vulgar imagination. It doesn't even have a bearing on actual genetics and what you can do with DNA splicing. It's more a buzzword to create an impression that DNA and genes are something they actually aren't.
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 No.382692

>>382500
Not Cool.
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 No.384373

>>381592
lol cope

eugene is correct
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 No.384541

>>382614
do you have formal training? it took me until my professors were unable to answer questions to realize they don't know whats going on
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 No.384608

>>384541
I have little in the way of formal education and biology is not my specialty. I don't think this take re "molecular biology" is very controversial though. The scientific dogma isn't entirely written by the oligarchic foundations. I think a lot of people just hear "molecular biology" and think "biology of really small things", skipping over the implications of it if they try to process what it means and what exactly the oligarchs are pushing. And this is about PR more than what the institutions of science, like the universities, actually believe about biology. Most biology, despite the influence of neo-Darwinism and the widespread acceptance of it, doesn't deal with genetics or DNA. The overwhelming application of biology is to specialize in particular organs or particular types of animals, and life is still defined in biology by what it does rather than it being constructed of genetic components. Even I got that in science and biology classes - maybe it is different since Bill Gates and co. took over the science curriculum completely, but they weren't talking about the eternal gene with religious reverence the way a lot of pop-science and PR does.

I think the academy knows very well about these things, but there are layers of obfuscation because the political system is reliant on essentially eugenicist arguments about humanity and society. If you talk to actual biologists and really pick at their brains, they'll tell you it's actually more complex than that, and if you're studying living things you're talking primarily about processes in the here and now. The genetic theory started as a theory of heredity, and most people can accept that there are hereditary traits in living things. The decision to make biological heredity the basis for a whole political order is a deliberate one. Part of how resistance to eugenics is retarded is that even the "critics" of eugenics accept uncritically the presumption that hereditary inequality necessarily leads to political inequality and that this political inequality would be a good thing if it were biological inequality were established as fact. In doing so, the "critics" of eugenics are undermined from the start, and form nothing other than a straw man to be knocked down. This theater has been played out deliberately since the end of the second world war. Before then, eugenic dogma was enshrined in the universities for very clear reasons of class domination, and it never has left. Even if the university students can be honest about what biology really means, they're never giving up eugenics without a fight, because to do so would undermine the institutions which give them everything. Even those university students who were shitcanned by the system, who've had their lives broken, can never fully get over the indoctrination, because it is so thorough in our society today. The only thing that would overcome this would be to present a clear case that eugenics has been ruinous to humanity and that a better way is possible, preferably one without overbearing oligarchic institutions commanding us like cattle. And that would mean that the political question is up for debate again, along with the social question.
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 No.392902

File: 1626906000579.png ( 272.22 KB , 530x720 , jen.png )

so I had some beers with a laser phycisist friend of mine today who is a bit of a lib, but he admitted that he favors the Bohmian interpretation of QM. what does this mean?
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 No.392909

>>392902
Not answering question because i do not know but asking one. What is your chance of Communism-Pilling your friend?
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 No.393242

>>365665
>I have to admit i don't understand why the higgs boson particle was called the god particle
From a common and prevalent misunderstanding. The discoverer called it "the goddamned particle" because of its elusiveness and shortened it to "god" for public tastes.
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 No.393659

>>392902
>Are lasers, communist rays ?
probably ;)
think about it, photons that share the same wavelength all going into the same direction
all lasers are red
>is my friend a crypto communist
probably not if he drank beer, as everybody knows communists exclusively drink vodka
>he favors the Bohmian interpretation of QM. what does this mean?
The lasers got to him ?
I'm making fun of you, because Bohm was canceled by McCarthyism and had to go to Brazil to avoid persecution.
It means your friend prefers the materialist interpretation of QM
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 No.393759

>>392909
he wasn't too opposed to /cybersoc/ ideas, especially in the context of climate change mitigation. he was also curious about Capital, so I'm thinking of gifting him my copy of volume 1
>>393242
>not calling it "the fucking particle"
imagine what could have been
>>393659
>all lasers are red
he works in infrared even. ultracommunism confirmed
>It means your friend prefers the materialist interpretation of QM
as a physicist should. I also told him about QBism and he thought I was shitting him
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 No.407577

>>393759

D I A L E C T I C A L
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 No.407793

This thread is dumb

Start poo poo pee pee posting
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 No.407836

File: 1627511219646.png ( 338.09 KB , 600x600 , 7428645das.png )

>>384608
>when eugenics-kun says eugenics
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 No.408709

>>382165

you can literally look up what protein each gene codes for and carry it through the process to see what impact it'd have on the organism
it's been doable for years
we aren't living in the 1990s anymore grampa

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1440-169X.2004.00735.x
>>

 No.409452

>>408709
WRONG!

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