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File: 1615724007551-0.png ( 656.83 KB , 652x488 , bio.png )

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 No.211966[View All]

Thread for all things Nordic. Recommended languages: Finnish, Scandinavian and English.
223 posts and 54 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
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 No.366675

>>366230
>Why replace the rural minister specifically?
she resigned in order to regain her seat in parliament so she could take part in the vote
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 No.367696

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Red Party still climbing up in the polls with a record 6%. Is Norway finally getting commiepilled?
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 No.367744

>>367696
I Hope so
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 No.367757

>>367696
Even Ap and SV are rising. That’s a good sign. How many seats they gonna take?
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 No.367873

>>367696
What's happening in Norway to cause this rise for the Red party? And what is the Red party doing right? Vikingbros, 'splain yo' selvez.
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 No.367893

>>367873
Actually I am one of the campaign staffers in the Red Party so I can try to explain.

In short terms it is mostly because the Red Party is very uncompromising, even to the other left wing parties. So people see that they actually do what they are told.

They have also with just one representative done a lot of stuff and people see them as a very clear opposition.

The rise of the Red Party is phenomenal, only rivaling the once right wing populist party The Progressive Party.
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 No.368021

>>367893
Since it isn’t proportional representation, would forming an electoral pact with SV get you more seats? Would R even want to?
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 No.368044

>>211966
Mysig bio. Var någonstans? :-)
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 No.368058

>>368021
The problem is that SV wants go into a coalition with AP (Labour), for Red that is a no-go and therefore making an electoral pact would be unfeasble and that is despite our policies being very much alike.

If I could try to make a comparison, then I would say SV believes in putting socialism through electoral means, while Red does believe in a vague sense a revolution.
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 No.368070

>>368058
A few more questions, based Red Man.

1. What is SV?

2. Also, has there been some happenings in Norway that would cause people to look for alternative?

3. I hear that Red party is still somewhat Communist and has actual backing within actual working class people, like oil and public transit workers. Is this true?
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 No.368218

>>368058
It cant be a short term ' get as much seats' agreement? You two have to sync approach to government too?
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 No.368235

File: 1625943401422.jpg ( 57.07 KB , 429x408 , gettyimages-864176060-612x….jpg )

Kinda off-topic, but Mika is my favorite Scandinavian
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 No.369265

>>368070
Sosialistisk Venstreparti (socialist left party).
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 No.369365

>>367893
>The rise of the Red Party is phenomenal, only rivaling the once right wing populist party The Progressive Party.
Ah, yes! The rise of the populists.
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 No.369544


>>368070
SV is the Socialist Left Party. They are in theory a socialist party, but in practice a social democratic party (in the real post war sense however). They are trying to become this big-tent left wing party, trying to unite environmentalists, agragrians and so on.

2. Covid-19 has made the differences between the rich and the poor much more apparant. With students struggling, healthcare workers and teachers are even forbid to strike and people lining up to get food more then ever. It has made Red much more appealing to the general population. Now that is in the short term.
In the long term I would say it is the natural tendency of a social democratic country to get rid of its welfare programs. As social democracy is built on class peace, meaning that to not provoke class war (with the high union rates and all that) you go with a boiling the frog movement. Focusing on "effeciency" and stating that this is to make the welfare state better and so on so on. It is a bit hard to explain in a written way for me without me going to deep into how Norwegian Capitalism is organized.

3. This is true yes. It has the word communism on its maximum program, although the leadership does not like that word. Probably the best thing with the Red Party is that it promotes ordinary working class members to its parliamentary lists and not apparatchiks, to a large degree of course.

>>369365
It is true that the Red Party is a populistic party, but what seperates it from other populist parties in Norway (of which we have a had a few). Is that it has a steady growth of members and voters. Now does that mean it will not meet the same problem as Podemos, Syriza and Enhedslisten. Sure, but that is why we have a party democracy.
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 No.369568

>>369544
>It is a bit hard to explain in a written way for me without me going to deep into how Norwegian Capitalism is organized.
Please do.
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 No.369966

>>369544
>Now does that mean it will not meet the same problem as Podemos, Syriza and Enhedslisten.
Isn't Enhedslisten like your sister party? What problem does Enhedslisten face?
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 No.370136

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DEUS VOOLTER
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 No.373382

File: 1626130880492.jpg ( 49.16 KB , 300x425 , I wish.jpg )

>>369568
To start with the problem of social democracy and the Norwegian kind more specifically we need to understand how this specific form of capitalism is organized. So Social Democracy predicates on giving the maximal concession to the workers in the economic and some concessions of the political sphere (in terms of increased democracy, increased women’s rights, minority rights, LGBT rights etc.). As the goal is to the end the class war and going to class peace. It is not just capitalism with welfare like social liberalism. As Social Liberalism predicates on not giving concessions to the workers but helping them with the market.
This class peace is institutionalized by accepting workers unions and establishing capitalistic unions, with the state being the moderator. This is called roughly translated Three Parts Cooperative. In Norway, the workers are (mainly) represented by LO, and capitalists are (mainly) represented by NHO, and the State is the political sphere of the capitalists. The goal of the State is to facilitate that the tensions are as low as possible so that the political field is not changed to drastically. This means that the negotiations are rarely by striking or lockout, but rather through consensus facilitated by the State between LO and NHO. Since the profit rate was so high and the economy back then was not nearly globalized as now, the Norwegian capitalists did not see the reason to exploit the workers as hard as their European counterparts. Instead, they traded this for less political radicalism. Now even if NHO tried to do back then something radical, the state would intervene and fight for the workers in order to keep the peace. During the 50’s and 60’s the class peace was so strong that the liberals who wanted to remove social democracy essentially capitulated to the progressive reforms.
The issue of social democracy as we Marxists know that class peace is fundamentally impossible due to the contradiction of labour and capital. Norwegian Social Democracy specifically predicates on oil and a high rate of profit in order to maintain its high rate of welfare in theory. The issue is that rate of profit has sunk, and oil is becoming less and less demanded in the world market, making it much harder to establish a fair consensus and as we know the capitalist’s nature of infinite expansion has to expand somewhere. This led to partial privatization, splitting public companies, cutting of benefits for the poorest of the working class etc. Which has reinvigorated the class war in Norway.
In order to conclude, the main problem of social democracy is not its imperialism (solely), but rather that the system is predicated on an inherent contradiction that seeks to unite labour and capital.
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 No.374895

>>369966
It has done compromises with the Social Democratic leading it to stagnate like Blocco de Esquerra in Portugal.
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 No.374992

>>373382
Good post. We have essentially the same system in Finland.

>Social Democracy predicates on giving the maximal concession to the workers in the economic and some concessions of the political sphere (in terms of increased democracy, increased women’s rights, minority rights, LGBT rights etc.). As the goal is to the end the class war and going to class peace. It is not just capitalism with welfare like social liberalism. As Social Liberalism predicates on not giving concessions to the workers but helping them with the market.

True to a degree, but as we know, the capitalists have firmly been moving towards social liberalism. Inside the past year alone two of the biggest employer organizations in Finnish industrial sector have unilaterally decided to end the system of negotiating nationa contracts with the unions. We'll soon see if they're playing as tough in deeds as in speech.

>In order to conclude, the main problem of social democracy is not its imperialism (solely), but rather that the system is predicated on an inherent contradiction that seeks to unite labour and capital.

> the main problem of social democracy is not its imperialism
This, so much this. The "le imperialism" meme as the go to explanation for Nordic social democracy is a stupid, lazy cop out. Social Democracy was something that, at least in Finland, was created through super intense and militaant class struggle, with Social Democrats pretending to be basically Socialists but more "moderate" and "responsible". Yeah, yeah, I know, SucDems are traitors and they killed Rosa in Krautland etc. etc. but come on. Social Democracy, such as it can be said to have existed as a system distinct from what you call social liberalism, has been disintegrating with ever increasing rapidity as we have become integrated to the imperialist Western economy.

The concessions weren't given by wise and far-seeing capitalists, they were taken by the workers. This needs to be understood by the Communists today.
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 No.375030

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>>374895
Oh really? Enhedslisten looks to be in confidence and supply arrangements at best. Hell they are even polling the highest ever lately. I always thought that european left wing parties usually stagnate after a while because the populace just doesn't want socialism. I doubt that Red will break 10%, at least not at the extreme expense of SV and Ap. Even PVDA-PTB with very similar ideology and approach to government as yours is stagnating at the polls lately. Of course I hope to be proven wrong!

Also I do agree with you about social democracy being a cursed alliance between labour and captial. My country's Rosa-killers betrayed my more radical socialists and communists and build Tripartism and a welfare state that is slowly falling apart in post-USSR neoliberalism
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 No.375585

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>>375030
From my comrades on the left wing of Red, we seem to be inspired more by PVDA-PTB of which I have heard they have reached new heights. On the right wing of Red they seem to be more inspired by Enhedslisten, but if you can show me the polls I would be very interested.
With the Red Party I do really think it will rise to 10-15% in the future. There are no parties that really want to take a firm opposition to the gap between the rich and the poor quite so seriously. We also see in Norwegian politics that parties really get a boost when they break the parliamentary limit of 4%, but I can be wrong of course. Also if you are a Danish Comrade tell me about the situation there.

>>374992
Thank you! I am not the best at writing so I appreciate it. However as I know in Finland the left is really struggling there, just as in Sweden. Is there really any hope for a resurgent left in trying to overcome the social democratic quagmire?
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 No.375590

Greta Thunberg is the least autistic Nordic person.
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 No.376238

>>375585
>Enhedslisten, but if you can show me the polls I would be very interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Danish_general_election

Enhedslisten is reaching 8 to 9% in the polls in 2019, and not at the expense of Socialist People's Party and Social Democrats.

>With the Red Party I do really think it will rise to 10-15% in the future

I hope it does too. It is interesting to see two different socialist parties appealing to different sections of the country.

I am sorry but I am not European, I just want to know more about the Red Party, PVDA-PTB, Enhedslisten to push my local demsucc (think SV and Die Linke tier) party in that direction
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 No.376918

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>>376238
I wish you luck! It aint easy, but it is worth a try
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 No.376962

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Svängde runt Åland senaste veckan, överraskades av vad som verkade att vara en relativt aktiv scen I Mariehamn. Väntade int' nå't sånt från en stad med ca. 11 000 invånare.
Känner nå'n här folk däromkringifrån? Nå't om scenen i stan? Min nyfikenhet vaknade på vägen till Pub Ettan.

Koukkasin Ahvenanmaan kautta viime viikolla ja yllätyin aktiivisen skenen ilmiöistä Maarianhaminassa. En ihan odottanut sellaista noin 11 000 asukkaan kaupungilta.
Tunteeko kukaan täällä ketään tuoltapäin? Jotain paikallisesta skenestä? Uteliaisuuteni heräsi matkalla Pub Ettaniin.

Swung 'round Åland last week, was surprised by what seemed to be a surprisingly active scene in Mariehamn. Didn't expect that from a city with about 11 000 inhabitants.
Does someone here know anyone from thereabout? Something about the local scene? My curiosity was tickled on the way to Pub Ettan.
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 No.377341

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>>373382
So how exactly does Nordic social democracy differ from the Strasserite ideal of class collaboration?
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 No.377350

>>376918
Oh man I wish Moxnes was even a tenth as based as Stalin. Though don't let VG see that picture!
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 No.377562

File: 1626286073732.jpg ( 82.87 KB , 720x960 , Moxnes.jpg )

>>377341
Economically they are similiar (in theory), in fact when writing the blue book which was the basis of Norwegian Social Democracy post WW2 they (Gerhardsen and co) were very much afraid of being linked to how fascists (Quisling) organized their economy.

However one crucial fact which is missing is the context of these reforms. In the case of fascism more specifically the more revolutionary wave of which Strasserism is insipired by the class collaboration is seen as a way to transcend the conflict by Fascists. However Fascists in practice are oppurturnistic and never implement these reforms truly and end up consolidating with the bourgeiois.

As for Social Democracy this is still in the context of bourgeiois parliamentary democracy and comes from the percieved or real threat of revolution. Therefore if these reforms are not implemented then there is a high chance of the workers actually making a revolution.

>>377350
I have met Moxnes a couple of times and he is pretty interesting. As a leader he has the skills and charisma no doubt, the irony with him though is that he defintively a fan of iron-clad centralism within the party similar to the Bolsheviks in the late 1918-1919s.
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 No.377674

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>>377562
fascism lowered wages of workers and drove privatization to insane levels
social democrats increased wages and put a lot of industry into the public sector
Neoliberalism is closer to fascism than social democracy
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 No.377722

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>>377674
In practice and functionally yes, but Fascism is distinct and something very specific. We should be careful not making Fascism the boogeyman of the Left.
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 No.377856

Medans Hyresgästföreningen bevisade sig själv vara extremt baserad nyligen med deras motsättning mot marknadshyror utan att förespråka något officiellt parti i vår karusell-riksdag - vad av fackföreningarna?
För mig står det mellan LO och SAC pga att de är dom som organiserar på industriprincipen. Men LO, till skillnad från Hyresgästföreningen, är partibundet till Socialdemokraterna och har de senaste åren röstat ja på ett antal olika arbetar-fientliga områden (t.ex. angående strejkrätt, LAS… har även varit korruptionskandaler med att LOs fackpamp tagit pengar från LO bössan och använt för semesterresor…).
Detta har ledt mig in i en knutpunkt som jag har svårt att resonera mig ut ur. "Borde jag som Marxist-Leninist gå med i SAC?" är min fråga till er kamrater, helt enkelt.
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 No.377933

File: 1626296158987.jpg ( 114.02 KB , 768x502 , punakaartilaiset-ja-venala….jpg )

>>375585
>Thank you! I am not the best at writing so I appreciate it. However as I know in Finland the left is really struggling there, just as in Sweden. Is there really any hope for a resurgent left in trying to overcome the social democratic quagmire?
Right now the situation seems hopeless in the short term. The Social Democratic party is still rather strong and is associated heavily as the Left in the minds of workers. Aside from this we have the Left Alliance (which I'll for now call VL) which is a satanic abomonation of a radlib party. For my entire life they've staid at 8%, give or take 1%, and they seem to be quite happy occupying this position. They're a thoroughly, completely bourgeoisfied "big tent" party for radlibs.

Aside from these, we have two Communist parties. SKP and KTP. Both are miniscule and isolated. KTP is the more "based" in terms of theory, but they have more historical baggage than actual future potential, as I judge it. They're like monks preserving the integrity of ML theory against opportunist revisionism or whatever, but what good is a revolutionary vanguard that's completely cut off from the masses? I was shortly a member of this party, and while I respect them, I don't see a future there. SKP are a bunch of radlibs, even cringier than the VL.

The VL does have some working class base in the construction trades, nurses and rural workers of the North. But the party is led by a Finnish-Swedish rich kid intellectual, and her ilk has completely taken charge. They take their working class support for granted, and don't seem to wonder at all why literally all frustration at SocDems is channeled to the far right rather than left. They're just not interested in truly radical politics, or even basic class politics.

It all seems very bleak. My only position now is to try building working class consciousness from within the union movement, community organizing or something along those lines. Actual proles, even the ones who sympathize the far right, are pretty smart and easilly open to persuasion and solidarity. I think part of the problem is that the history of class struggle in Finland is particularilly bloody and difficult, more so than in other Nordic countries. Workers actually appreciare Social Democracy for this reason, and are ultimately reluctant to take up the arms of class war once again.

I'm still hopeful though. I can't see it right now, but there's something brewing. I also believe that once the class concsious starts taking shape, it will also be all the more militant.

To put it in another way: In some Western countries, especially Burgerland, you can see a willingness and curiosity for some kind of class consciousness, but people don't quite know what it entails and how to get there. In Finland there's an obvious necessity and growing preassure for class consciousness, but people do know what it entails and what it'll take, so they are reluctant and unwilling.

What I find difficult to understand is, why does Norway have so much better (if still not good) situation with the Left. If you were to guess, what would you say is the difference between the conditions of the Left in Norway and Sweden, for example?
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 No.377944

>>377856
>Borde jag som Marxist-Leninist gå med i SAC?
jag misstänker att de inte är superpeppade på att ha ML:ar som medlemmar. men jag tror inte det skadar att ha ett örat åt deras håll åtminstone. jag har lite grejer att ta upp med min lokala SAC-avdelning
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 No.377948

Good editorial about the role of state intelligence agencies, with a predictable tard in the comment. Translate with google.
https://www.nordnorskdebatt.no/myndighetene-er-pa-farlige-veier/o/5-124-133064?
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 No.378215

File: 1626303990556.jpeg ( 10.3 KB , 250x346 , Einar Gehardsen.jpeg )

>>377933
Interesting. I think it is mainly because the Red Party and the Socialist Left party has made a secret agreement to tone down the idpol from a strategic viewpoint. Also the Red Party focuses a lot of work in grassroot movements and Trade Union movements and it actively tries to get their endorsements. Recently it got an endorsement from an organization that wants to reduce childhood poverty for example.
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 No.378238

>>377948
I got that brochure on my letterbox lol
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 No.379116

File: 1626330213188.jpg ( 29.15 KB , 600x733 , 1585671176039.jpg )

>>378215
> I think it is mainly because the Red Party and the Socialist Left party has made a secret agreement to tone down the idpol from a strategic viewpoint.
Seriously?
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 No.379201

File: 1626337271576.png ( 25.1 KB , 495x676 , Gjesssp.png )

>>379116
Magnus Marsdal in Manifest Tankesmie (which is a socialist think tank) said so at least in his new book. I mean even Moxnes said "It is a form of racism to believe that Norwegians can not do hard work as immigrants from Eastern Europe do in the fields." and he has been adamant in reducing the amount of worker-immigrants from EU for example.
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 No.379635

>>379201
Holy based.
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 No.380158

Is it a coincidence that Swedish union rates take a huge decline the moment the country joins the EU?
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 No.398528

>>377856
Ja, en stor del av deras grej är att de först och främst är ett fack.
>>

 No.398639

>>380158
What do you think?
>>

 No.398659

>>398639
The EU is a paid subscription to neoliberalism, so yes of course.
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 No.398843

>>

 No.398861

>>377944
>>398528
Tack.
>jag misstänker att de inte är superpeppade på att ha ML:ar som medlemmar
Det är ingen fara gissar jag. Det är enormt att de är ett proletärt, klasskämpande utifrån industriprincipen till att börja med, och att de tydligen också är facket som lyckas strejka mest just nu (de växer även).
Om de visar sig vara överrepresenterat i ideologiska anarkister (vilket jag tvekar på lite) så kan jag bara luta på Marx (vilket onekligen ändå är en hit bland en markant andel) och Hönskatapulten (i vissa områden såsom direkt-demokrati och kommunism utan att nödvändingtvis nämna honom)… De behöver inte veta min positiva syn på Lenin och Stalin, ha disputer över definition av staten, etc… Det är en fackförening, inte ett parti, trots allt. Det handlar huvudsakligen om att få in så många arbetare som möjligt in i denna organisation, i formering av ett kamporgan i deras klassintresse. Om man märker att vissa individer därefter även är lämpade för det kommunistiska partiet så får man väl ge dom en pamflett i privat, hehe.
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 No.400727

>>398861
What does this say… can you use English? Every other Nord here uses English. They have the courtesy to discuss things in a common language, on the thread's given one, and it would be nice if you would include yourself to that topic.
>>

 No.400993

>>400727
Thanks.
> I suspect that they are not super excited to have MLs as members
There is no danger, I guess. It is enormous that they are a proletarian, class-fighting based on the industrial principle to begin with, and that they are apparently also the union that is succeeding in striking the most right now (they are also growing).
If they turn out to be overrepresented in ideological anarchists (which I doubt a bit) then I can only lean on Marx (which is undeniably still a hit among a significant proportion) and the Chicken Coop (in some areas such as direct democracy and communism without necessarily mention him)… They do not need to know my positive view of Lenin and Stalin, have disputes over the definition of the state, etc… It is a trade union, not a party, after all. It is mainly a matter of getting as many workers as possible into this organization, in forming a fighting body in their class interest. If you notice that some individuals are then also suitable for the Communist Party, you must give them a pamphlet in private, hehe.

(Here you go)

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