/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Your post radiates the stereotypes that only industrial and medical care workers matter to society. Your wrong it's only that industrial and medical care workers matter alot more to society than service sector workers because the wealth they produce lasts along time as a home built by a construction worker can last generations while a retail worker helping customers will only provide value that lasts for a few seconds.

<to answer your question
They would be around but there would be a heavier push towards industry

>>413274
I didn't mention medical workers? They provide useful services of course, and they're not as easily quantified as the amount of some good being produced by a factory or farm. The same goes for hairdressers, piano tuners, musicians etc.
>They would be around but there would be a heavier push towards industry
But industry is increasingly being automated. And demand may well shrink due to things like planned obsolescence not exist. Also this doesn't answer my question.

Those who do not work, neither will they eat

>>413288
>le automation meme
Industry has always been automating since the industrial revolution began, robber barons have been trying to replace workers with energy run machines for god knows how long because its cheaper and they dont have to hire anyone. Nothings different this time with robots

>>413292
Dont forget industrial machinery 3d printers and robots still have to be designed maintained and built and finally installed. Ironically enough this creates new jobs and ultimately this costs capitalists money which incentivizes them to outsource labour since it's cheaper than paying the abhorrent costs for creating the machinery

>>413290
And how are you going to determine whether someone is "working" when they have a service job? How do you measure the social labour done by a hairdresser?

>>413292
>its cheaper
Not if you have access to cheap labour it isn't. But either way, you're still not answering my question.

>>413303
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neither_shall_he_eat

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/may/22b.htm

Here

>>413303
>And how are you going to determine whether someone is "working" when they have a service job? How do you measure the social labour done by a hairdresser?

its pretty obvious if someone doesn't come into work

>>413303

You mean how to renumerate in labour tokens?

You run tests to calculate how much time ut takes on average to perform a given haircut by trained hairdressers, then you set a payment per haircut performed.

How to control for quality is another matter.

>>413342
>How to control for quality is another matter.
Obvious customer complaints.

Bump

>>413314
Yes but it's less obvious if they're just winging it

>>413342
>You run tests to calculate how much time ut takes on average to perform a given haircut by trained hairdressers, then you set a payment per haircut performed.
This works for some services but not all. I suppose one could just default to renumeration based on labour time instead of social labour time.
Another problem is when services are subject to marginal effects. Just like how a farmer working marginal land will not produce as much value per hour as someone working fertile land, a piano tuner working in a sparsely populated area will have to travel farther per job, and therefore cannot perform as much social labour per unit of labour time.

>How to control for quality is another matter.
This too, but here it's maybe possible to complain to higher-ups.

>>413292

the industrial workforce has been shrinking globally since the 70s and 80s and continues to shrink. Automation is even hitting sweatshop factories in China and Bangladesh because it is literally that cheap to automate over paying 1 a hour to workers.

Automation hasn't hit the entire world yet because it is still more expensive than exploitative wages paid in the global south.

To OP, service industry workers will probably far less in quantity after a revolution. Some of their jobs are actually pointless and do nothing. They are just spaces to be filled. If you have ever been to a Co-Op restaurant, you will notice all the workers there do service positions and cooking and cleaning. They rotate between all 3 duties, rather than having a designated janitor, cook and cashier. This is probably would the service industry would look like. People will rotate positions and fill demand temporarily as required.

Some service workers will have to be full time however. Like childcare or whatever.

>>413383
>If you have ever been to a Co-Op restaurant, you will notice all the workers there do service positions and cooking and cleaning. They rotate between all 3 duties, rather than having a designated janitor, cook and cashier. This is probably would the service industry would look like. People will rotate positions and fill demand temporarily as required.
This is the case even in say pubs today under capitalism. But here we still have the problem of renumeration. With goods-producing industry we can quite easily measure and renumerate workers based on social labour if we want to. What to produce and how much of it to produce is determined by planning. But we can't plan things like bars, can we?
>Some service workers will have to be full time however. Like childcare or whatever.
Or medical professionals.

>>413370

Well generally is to be done with marginal land is that the sales price of the output will be adjusted so that it reflects the marginal cost. The government would collect the difference in the sector as a rent that offsets taxes.

As far as renumeration for the farmer goes, it is trickier in agriculture, but not because of marginal land productivity differentials, but rather because of the uncertainty of final due to environmental effects (temperature, pests, winds, humidity, etc.) If those effects were removed the renumeration would just be calculated using the local productvity if that marginal land.

Eg. (40hour/week)*(50week/year)*(1/local average yield per year) = x hour/bushel wage

Obviously adjustable for number of harvests per year, crop type and standard working day, length, workweek length and number of weeks worked per year would be.

>>413387

Some places will be like bars, some places might continue to remain the same. I did not mean Co-Op restaurants are a representation of the future of the service workforce.

>>413389
>As far as renumeration for the farmer goes, it is trickier in agriculture, but not because of marginal land productivity differentials, but rather because of the uncertainty of final due to environmental effects (temperature, pests, winds, humidity, etc.)
I hadn't even thought of that, but yeah, crop yields makes this even trickier. In capitalism, a farmer may well go bankrupt from two bad harvests in a row. We obviously don't have that problem in a socialist system. But making things "fair" by some metric is a good thing to strive for.

I gotta bounce. Might check the thread on my phone.

Read the whole thread, still haven't seen a decent answer to the OPs question

>>413303
>And how are you going to determine whether someone is "working" when they have a service job? How do you measure the social labour done by a hairdresser?
Your hair is a commodity, the surplus is the work invested to put a wanted visuality of the hair.

>>413270
>How would services work in a socialist economy?
Like it would in a productive society. You think like the cable man giving you a service, but in fact, he's producing something: The service provided to you, thus it has a surplus of the 'commodities' the absence of service when it is labored.

>>413387
>Or medical professionals.
Medical professionals are the most closest to factory conveyor unironically.

>>413270
See : https://youtu.be/_jpuHM_k9CU?t=1475
Here Cockshott uses School and Hospitals but obviously it works with any service deemed socially necessary in your hypothetical socialist society.

>>413270
>Dealing with renumeration is trickier here since it doesn't appear to be possible to measure social labour time for services, as opposed to goods.
Why? The same technique applies to pretty much any industrial large scale production, be it services or physical goods.
And any non industrial production is pretty much marginal.

>>413298
>factory with 2 jobs: to reproduce itself and to produce other factories
It's really that simple. Full automation is possible dude.

[spoiler]I don't fully understand LTV, so I might be wrong, if I am, point it out to me i'd appreciate[/spoiler]

Ultimate source of value is labor, right? Resources are naturally worthless. They get extracted via labor, which adds value, they get worked on via labor to produce goods, which adds value and so on and so forth.
Each hour of work adds the same amount of value to the product worked on. Just that some products are worked on for 5 minutes by workers, like pens, while some are worked on for 10 months, like houses. Thus pens cost less than houses.

So, my guess is you'd pay service workers roughly the same amount of money per hour as all other kinds of workers