No.411026
repost
I’ve been thinking about something tonight that I wanted feedback on, like whether anybody can just tear it apart or give constructive crits. It was basically a riff off of the idea that Bitcoin has a lot of volatility partially because by design its value is volatile (in the classical sense). This isn’t my observation or anything, I’ve seen it in several places, but due to the fact BTC’s block difficulty increases with the hashrate (the material costs of BTC rise) but the reward is arbitrarily fixed to the halving schedule (ever mined block rewards some fixed amount of bitcoin for several years), then the material cost (the labor cost, or similar to Ricardo, in BTC’s own terms the “difficulty”) systematically deviates from the amount of coins produced. Basically, if BTC was like any other commodity the more invested in mining it would produce more of it. But instead, the value of each BTC just inflates because no matter how much you invest in mining it, you keep getting the same amount.
So BTC’s price is just a feedback loop of the speculation on it. There isn’t a normal regulating pressure towards a natural price like other commodities, instead the value just rises with the demand. With other commodities, investment as a response to high demand usually causes the price to fall back down to its value as more are produced at the relatively stable difficulty of its production in terms of labor (all else being equal, ie no big technical changes or exogenous shocks throwing off the conditions of production).
So this has a pretty simple fix, just make something like BTC’s block reward a ratio of its difficulty. The difficulty still rises to make blocks mined at regular intervals, but as the difficulty rises the blocks produce more coins. So that should put a downwards pressure on the price of each bitcoin, it will converge closer to its cost of production as miners sell their BTC on the market for more competitive profit margins between each other and across the wider market.
So there is the crypto and value-theory part, and leave aside for a moment the question of liquidity, why people would be buying and selling this crypto as a medium of exchange. First lets get the big vision in picture. Where does MMT come in? Well, I figured that if you had a sovereign issuer of the currency, like the proverbial “money printer”, then you could use the liquidity of the currency to make money “out of thin air”. But of course, you can’t make too much too fast. It has to be in respect to the liquidity, the open market has to be able to absorb your sale of the crypto without strongly throwing off the price. But again, leave that aside for a moment. Just assume you can, that the market is liquid enough. Imagine the Printer is controlled by the working class, obviously through democratically structured working class organizations. So the Printer is accountable and transparent to the working class.
What does the Printer do with the money? In accordance with MMT, the sovereign issuer can spend as much of its currency as it wants and is only constrained by the productivity of the market that is using it. Basically, as long as more goods and services are being traded in the currency, then it isn’t going to drastically inflate. How does the Printer increase its market, which is basically increasing the size and liquidity of the market for its currency? It uses the money to buy property, which it leases, leases being payable in the currency (as far as I know, in the US you can accept whatever you want for payment federally, but state laws may vary. You just need to pay your taxes in dollars). But why do this, what does it have to do with socialism or the working class? Well, you can buy residential land and lease it back to housing cooperatives you help the tenants form, or for homes you can do what Community Land Trusts do and kind of simulate a housing market, except you lower the costs significantly by turning the land value into a modest lease (which is basically georgism, CLTs are like little non-profit georgists).
So now you’re taking residential property off of the housing market and leasing it for modest fees payable in the crypto. This creates liquidity as it raises demand for the crypto, stabilizing the price as when the exchange rate to dollars is low the lessees will buy more so they can pay cheaper fees, which pushes the price back up. So you’re creating a growing market in the crypto, and you’re culling landlordism. Great, but we can go further.
So take how businesses often get sold. Often the buyer will buy the assets + goodwill of the business and leave the actual LLC or corporation as a shell that still has all of its liabilities. So you avoid any hidden debt bombs or anything like that. The Printer can do the same thing, but the Printer isn’t interested in owning businesses. It just wants to lease property to the people who live and work with it to control it mutually. So instead it buys the assets + goodwill and it tells the employees it will help them form a worker cooperative and lease them the stuff. Of course, they pay it in the crypto. So now we are in businesses, and we are converting them to worker coops while continuing to expand the liquidity of our currency in a virtuous cycle.
I think that is a decent summary of the big vision, so now jump backwards to how you get started. It would be very difficult, as crypto people will be skeptical of a Proof of Work coin that has what appears as an arbitrarily powerful network participant. Why have this decentralized PoW coin but also a money printer? Well on one hand ideally the crypto is actually competitive when it comes to transaction fees, so that businesses and individuals might be induced to choose it to make transactions and transfer money rather than something like Visa. If that is the case, great, we are in the free market now! But I don’t think you want to rely on that, after all how do you market this thing? The crypto space is awash in random scammy coins, how do you stand out and grow enough to start your scheme of printing and selling crypto to raise money?
That is where practical politics comes in, the only way I can imagine it is if you partner with currently existing orgs and influential people on the left. And after all, this isn’t supposed to be your dictatorship, it has to be sustainable. It has to be democratically accountable, the working class needs to engage with it and have oversight of it, have a stake. So you partner with some orgs that have reach through either their membership or simply their social presence, and they communicate what is going on. Hopefully then you have an activist base that basically starts trying to help by finding ways to transact in the currency, contributing computing power to a mining pool would be easy and helpful, to increase its liquidity. They’re basically indirectly funding the project, so you’re pooling funds without using crowdfunding or issuing securities. It is all decentralized, people are mining the coins themselves. It is only later when the market is more liquid that the Printer comes in, prints some and sells it at the market rate. Then it gets to work.
Ideally this would grow exponentially, as there would be that virtuous cycle of growing the market for the currency by acquiring and leasing property in the currency (simulating a tax basically). Eventually you’d probably run into legal trouble, hopefully because of how threatening you look, and you start getting sued or dragged before Congress or something. But this is actually good and normal. You’re being threatening, you’ve started expropriating the capitalist class with their own tools. It is like a leveraged buyout of their class’s property. But when Congress or the SEC or whatever starts taking you to task, starts calling you criminal, you just make it loud and clear in public that all you’ve done is increase the wealth of the working class. You’re not price gouging or anything, what is your crime? Who are you hurting? Obviously the answer is the bourgeoisie, you’re threatening their hegemony over capital. So the class struggle comes out, there is a real alternative being presented. Do you want control over the money printer to be in the hands of this cabal of assholes who are trying to stop you so they can continue funding military adventures and benefits for the wealthy? Or do you go with the money printer that lowered the cost of living of hopefully hundreds of thousands of people and made them wealthier by cutting out their landlords and capitalists?
Last thing I’ll say is that obviously this idea is low on details, which would necessarily be messy as finding real political consensus and will on the left to embark on such an exotic project would be hard. I think a lot of the bigger orgs would feel threatened by it too, in the sense that they’d feel the inherent risk involved. But ironically I think that risk comes from how this structure would definitely expose them to various forms of legal harassment due to how it doesn’t really have many institutional precedents. The DSA has an institutional shape, it is a non-profit political association. Labor unions have institutional shapes, they have prescribed channels with calculable risk. But something like this doesn’t, which is a part of what gives it its opportunity. It would have to have a strong democratic connection to the people it is participating with. The tenants would need to have powers in something like the bylaws of the Printer, like the ability to veto any proposed building sale by the Printer. I think aside from any democratic means of appointing the managers of the Printer (through the orgs or through membership as tenants or whatever), those kinds of isolated veto powers would be helpful in making sure that the larger org doesn’t abuse the smaller parts that are using the mutually owned property, and the smaller parts don’t abuse the whole
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No.411138
Bump
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No.411145
TL;DR ?
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No.411147
No way I'm reading all that shit
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No.411150
>>411145I honestly don't know if I can tldr, it's a very interwoven idea. The tldr would be use crypto to make a state within a state, but that obviously needs details, which are broadly described in the post.
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No.411151
muchisimo texto
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No.411163
>>411150Like, the best I could put it without actually explaining more of the reasoning is,
>Imagine there is a way to make a Proof of Work crypto stable in price, and it is based on a critique of its original design that comes from value theory.>but unlike other PoW coins, this coin has a network participant that can also print coins at will, though the miners still exist>Assume the network participant with the printer is controlled by the working class>liquidity in the coin would give the printer the ability to print money out of thin air and use it to acquire property>the property is mutualized through lease fees that are paid in the cryptocurrency (a simulation of a tax)>this grows the liquidity of the coin, which means the printer can issue more money, which can grow exponentiallySo its a state within a state.
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No.411170
>>411163Basically a loop. That is why MMT is in the title too. The issuer uses liquidity in the coin on the open market to raise funds by printing crypto, and it avoids inflation by expanding the market for the crypto by acquiring property it mutualizes and leases, the leases payable in crypto fees. That increases liquidity, allowing it to issue more, allowing it to mutualize more property, etc.
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No.411178
>>411026Seems like a scheme to use crypto speculation from dumb money to fund housing cooperatives, but to fix the scalability issues such as transaction times in currently existing crypto schemes basically requires that you defeat the purpose. Block sizes would need to be huge, which sucks for minera. Maybe you can trick people by just having a digital currency that has nothing to do with Merkel or hash trees and is basically just a centralized ledger that you pretend is "crypto" (these are basically stablecoins), and use that system in lieu of visa.
I just don't see what the point of crypto is here other than to attract dumb money. An alternative digital currency maybe but since there's a money printer to begin with and the originators control the system what's the point of the Blockchain other than hampering your transaction rate. It's already not a trustless system and socialism is about politics and not utopian technical schemes.
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No.411196
>>411178This isn't utopian, plans for action aren't utopianism. Utopianism is when you establish a way of living beforehand that you think will produce communistic behavior. It is the traditional utopian commune, it is Robert Owen structuring little towns from on high that he thinks will change people's behavior.
You need the crypto to simulate a commodity so the value stabilizes. The crypto commodity has a value, the cost of its production. The problem with BTC is its value per coin fluctuates arbitrarily because the protocol issues fixed amounts of coin per block for years on end. So as opposed to investing in car factories producing more cars, when investment in mining BTC increases, you still get the same amount of BTC. That means the value per coin rises.
But if you rationalize that by making the BTC reward a ratio to difficulty, ie the more computer power is applied to mining the more coins are produced as a ratio of the computer power, then the crypto price will have a tendency to oscillate around its value. THAT is what allows the printer to actually print money on a commodity with a more stable exchange rate. It stops becoming an appreciating asset, it fluctuates around its value, which means as long as there is a liquid market for the crypto as an actual medium of exchange you've created a private money printer. If the working class controls the money printer, then they can basically print money to do a slow "leveraged buyout" so to speak of the capitalist economy.
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No.411206
>>411203You don’t know what you’re talking about and aren’t contributing, leave the thread.
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No.411208
>>411205I’m not talking about BTC itself, it would be a different protocol.
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No.411222
>>411205>>411208Basically, the OP post is using BTC as an example because BTC is the exemplar PoW coin due to its size, but BTC had a critical design flaw in respect to its mission of being digital cash, which is that BTC produces arbitrary amounts of coin relative to the material cost of producing it, making its value fluctuate in a feedback loop with its price. You could fix that pretty simply by making block rewards a ratio of difficulty, so that there is a more stable material cost associated with each crypto coin. That would make it more of a commodity, it would have a value that the price would gravitate towards. But if you made that change and also added a network participant who could print currency (had an unlimited supply), then they could use liquidity in the market for the currency to sell some to raise funds to grow the market by acquiring property they mutualize and tax on the currency (the tax is a lease/rental fee). That is basically mirroring how states with sovereign currencies develop. So it’s a state within a state model.
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No.411248
>>411159What’s confusing? Genuinely, because I’m curious if it’s possible to explain this to normal people.
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No.411249
I don't understand any of what you say. The key thing to a working fiat currency is that the state has the monopoly on violence and can make credible threats of confiscating your shit and/or throwing you in prison if you don't pay taxes.
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No.411258
>>411249That is what the growing market is for via acquisitions. Mediums of exchange transcend states, though you are correct that states enforce legal tender with their sovereignty. But if the Printer can raise enough money to make property acquisitions, it can start stabilizing (and eventually growing) the liquidity of the market by enforcing leases payable in the crypto. The lease fees are simulating a tax, ie your legal authority over your property (by proxy the authority of the state) allows you to generate a tax base that builds the market for your crypto, which if it succeeded would be exponential growth as the more leases you are collecting the more the liquidity will be in the open market for the crypto, the more money you can print without causing the price to tank.
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No.411262
>>411258Also, this wouldn’t be a fiat currency. It’s a hybrid, it’s more like you’re issuing currency that is underwritten by the value of the crypto commodity, the material cost of producing it.
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No.411264
>>411196My bad for calling it utopian, you're right that it isn't necessarily a blueprint for communism or w/e I was on my phone so I wanted to stop typing and used a vulgar "insult" to top off my shitpost.
Now that I'm on my computer however I can sort of complete by brainstorming.
In order to get this series of crypto-payable businesses you need to either
1. have an already established set of infrastructure or businesses, in the example you list a set of housing cooperatives
2. Be able to invest or buy new properties that will presumably have residents or customers that pay in your crypto. You have to either force them to pay in crypto which violates legal tender laws or you have to incentivize them to, which could increase costs.
What I'm basically saying is that housing has real world costs that, unless you already have a large cadres of skilled people and workers, have to be paid in fiat. This means that there has to be some fiat-crypto exchange. So either you are selling the coin for a bunch of money to pay for the housing and businesses, or you are selling the coin for fiat to build it yourself, or you already have the fiat to begin with to kickstart the network.
If you want to grow the network then you're still tied to the larger economy and fiat-crypto exchange rate prior to the network growing sufficiently large such that it is self-sustaining and capable of growing on its own.
What I'm doubting is the -virtuous cycle- element of your scheme. It seems like to me it will become another business or NGO, embedded in the larger capitalist system, hampered by its need to provide cheaper housing below market rates to incentivize the crypto stuff.
Why I mentioned dumb money was because it's plausible that you can advertise the coin to laymen and they speculate it as usual. You then dump it to find that initial capital to kickstart it. As far as I know most orgs in my country at least don't own a lot of housing.
This is not really touching the scalability and transaction rate issues inherent with PoW systems. BTC for instance, a very dumb protocol, has a theoretical max of ~7 txn / second last I checked without segwit and maybe a factor of 10 increase with segwit. Regardless it's puny compared to visa, which can process millions per second.
I think you are just underestimating how difficult it is to kickstart and overcome the network affect advantage of existing fiat systems. You would have to play their game for a long time before it was viable as its own system unless you already had a huge cadres of pre-dedicated and convinced party members with construction and management skills.
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No.411274
>>411262Though should be noted that the only way to not tank it’s value while printing coins is if the productivity of the sector grows, ie the market in the currency grows. So that is why you expand by mutualizing property. That grows the market, so you’re “investing” in “productive activity” which serves to pay off the dilution you made before (though you wouldn’t want to issue enough to move the market. Inflation comes with cumulative bad investments by the issuer causing the printed currency to grow in size relative to the stagnation or decline of productivity)
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No.411284
>>411264I’ll respond in a bit, have to run, but legal tender laws only involve creditors. A business in the US can accept any payment for a good or service, subject to state laws. As long as payments are at the beginning of a period, you’re paying for a service upfront and can accept anything.
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No.411315
>>411264So point number 2 was essentially what I was thinking about as the conservative case, because point 1 assumes you just get people to join you off of charisma or organizing skills. However, elements of point 1 would be necessary, as in you would need to have a base of support and a way to communicate and engage with the working class to keep its legitimacy and awareness.
But as far as payment in fiat, that is fine, though you can also still pay people in whatever you want. Company scrip is technically still legal, you just can't use it to avoid taxes or minimum wage laws. You can pay people in securities, in goods and services of a certain value etc. which companies occasionally do. But I do think the prospect of paying people in the crypto is dubious. What you could do is pay them in the crypto at a favorable rate, ie you could mark up their wages by paying them the crypto and giving them an option to convert it at some rate. If the market goes above the rate then they don't exercise the option, but if it doesn't then you have to pay them the markup. This would require financial wizards on staff to balance the portfolio of the Printer, to the degree it is directly engaging in such things. But for the most part it is going to simply sell crypto, buy assets, and then partner with either former employees in the worker coop case, or tenants in the residential case, and lease them the assets payable in crypto. The Printer has no part in the operations of the coops, though it may sign agreements with them or have stipulations around membership in its bylaws to incentivize its lessees to make some transactions in the crypto.
>If you want to grow the network then you're still tied to the larger economy and fiat-crypto exchange rate prior to the network growing sufficiently large such that it is self-sustaining and capable of growing on its own. That is a real problem, but I don't think it is insurmountable. I think this latent opportunity in crypto is actually specific to it as a technology, that you can simulate the production of a commodity across a network while giving one participant the privileged ability to arbitrarily produce it. Municipalities and private organizations have tried to issue their own currencies, but they've always had to peg it to sovereign currencies or otherwise make it non-exchangable except for to a set of price-fixed goods and services. It was impossible previously to have a commodity that have a value, a difficulty of its production, that was free for someone else to produce (unless they were already a state).
So basically I see latent opportunity there that should be investigated.
>This is not really touching the scalability and transaction rate issues inherent with PoW systems. BTC for instance, a very dumb protocol, has a theoretical max of ~7 txn / second last I checked without segwit and maybe a factor of 10 increase with segwit. Regardless it's puny compared to visa, which can process millions per second. This is true, but just a technical issue that may have solutions. The Printer could even act as an imperial node, such that it maintains the record of the blockchain and block sizes can be increased. What is important is that production of the crypto is still decentralized, it needs to be a commodity. But in respect to things like the limitations on transaction speeds created by a design philosophy of decentralization, we can just increase centralization.
>I think you are just underestimating how difficult it is to kickstart and overcome the network affect advantage of existing fiat systems. I think it will definitely be difficult, but revolution in general is difficult. Getting people to use socialist Venmo because it expands cooperatives (shrinks the market for equity) doesn't seem impossible on its face. But the details would be naturally messy.
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No.411358
>>411315>>411284Also wanted to note in respect to legal tender laws and scalability that I think it is important to recognize that, historically, in this very country, you did not have to accept dollars for payment for most of its history. It was all gold, it was only in times of crisis like the civil war that various governments would pass laws regarding what was acceptable payment, and it was usually involving the state's right to force people to accept its money (because it had run out of gold).
I'm not a goldbug by any means, I don't think gold or commodities have a privileged status as money. Rather, pointing to the fact that they WERE money is to say that people merely transacted in bank notes and such out of convenience, because they were plentifully available and the bank had liabilities to people for the gold that they theoretically kept. So basically non-state currency has existed widely, many competing non-state currencies issued by banks and stores and companies etc. in various localities. So given that, I don't think it is impossible to generate a new one. It just needs to be profitable to generate, which is on the miner's side and fueled by demand for a use as a medium of exchange. That becomes a technical issue, can you market the currency to people as fulfilling a need? Can it be competitive on fees? Is its anonymity useful? Can marketing it as socialist coin with the right advocates actually get breadtubers to use it to pay each other for potlucks? Whatever it is, but if you can find a real use case to START the market in it, then it has the potential to be self-reproducing.
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No.411774
Op can we publish what you wrote in new multitude?
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No.411782
Op, I'm not that au fait with the tech side of bitcoin, but socially can we say that cryptocurrency, especially altcoins etc is a way of creating a new commodity based on the shared values that people input into it?
Take the old 'mud pies' argument against the law v which is easily disproven by Marxism saying that a commodity needs to have a social use value for the Lt to work.
Now, with crypto, the use value being produced is a currency (Polanyi would call this a fictional commodity, in the fact, like land and labour. It's not really a commodity but acts like one in the market). So what happens is that you get people who literally and figuratively 'buy in' to the idea that this fictional commodity is an actual use value, and this valorises the crypto at various levels.
So if you got enough people on the left to valorise a crypto, then you could buy land for projects etc is that the basic gist of what you're saying?