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 No.408897

why did stalin ban the avant garde? Why did he have to make art conform to his shit tier taste?
Actually why the soviet union post lenin adopt that shitty socialist realism?
The USSR was one on the greatest experiments in Human History, but on this they totally shitted the bed.
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 No.408908

As a someone who thinks it was one of the mistakes of USSR, i think it's have to do with their thought of "cultural-capitalism", same with their ban on rock music. They had fear that it would damage socialist society and it was poison product of capitalism.
USSR was pretty "alternative" at movies/cinema before, they also had niche sci-fi writers too. I think it's related to fear
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 No.408912

>>408908
Usual communist regime practice. Same goes to China with its great firewall.
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 No.408913

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 No.408915

>>408913
Idiot. That funding came in response to this brainlet move from stalin. Soviet avant gard existed decade earlier shit like pollock happened retard
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 No.408916

Not super informed on the issue but the long essay "The Total Art of Stalinism" by Boris Groys is a good handling of the subject
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 No.408920

>>408908
>>408912
>cultural-capitalism", same with their ban on rock music. They had fear that it would damage socialist society and it was poison product of capitalism.
Yeah but it had the opposite effect as socialist realism de facto inforced cultural capitalism. The alternative to norman rockwell and frank capra shouldn't be the soviet/ chinese version of this trash.
Same as china, why the superstructural standard of culture and commodities should be the same as the capitalist one?
Why do I need chinese suburbs or soviet hollywood or chinese vine or soviet porn instead of something new and revolutionary like Constructivism or Dziga Vertov?
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 No.409175

>>408897
Cus proles needed to be kept in check for industrialization, so vanguard bureaucracy needed the culture industry to play it safe, ergo boring conservatism and cultural stagnation. Plus Stalin and his circle had a shit taste in art.
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 No.409294

>>408920
>why do capitalists with red flags push out capitalist products with red flags
gee sure is a mystery
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 No.410864

Bump
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 No.410876

Oh how I love when the antirevisionistkiddies cry wolf about "muh cia sponsored art". THE CIA DIDN'T FUCKING EXIST BEFORE 1947. Stalin was retard uigher who just had a hateboner for it OR was too high on ideology to not realize he is a retard. No matter, at the end of the day he did this shit which for one castrated USSR from having a good tool of cultural soft power, as before Stalin USSR was slowly becoming a modernist refuge and safespace for such artists, and secondly he turned the inteligentsia against the soviets for its entire life. If you just had a droplet of knowledge of artistic history, you'd know that state-enforced art goes to shit super fast. Case and point Absolutist art that ran out of steam in like 20 years. No one wants to look at stagnant "big prole man stands in factory" artstyle for 30 years. Ofc CIA coopted modernists later on. They were pragmatic, and easily got themselves the discarded soft power tool that Stalinuigher threw out.
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 No.410890

>>410876
>Absolutist art
You mean Realist?
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 No.410897

Why do liberals think stalin was some kind of king that shaped the USSR to his liking?
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 No.410902

>>410897
Regarding this he did kind of act like a king.
If not, why did the government castrated the avant garde?
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 No.410903

>>410890
No, I mean the art of Absolute Monarchy. The "its heresy if you deviate from da Greeks" and "Shakespear was a barbarian for mixing tragedy and commedy" art. The correct deffinition escapes me now, sadly.
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 No.410906

>>410902
The workers castrated the avant garde. The workers were the government. Soviet society didn't like avant garde thus banned it. Simple as
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 No.410911

>>410906
Absolute cope.
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 No.410923

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>>408912
I've heard the Chinese government's approval agency for films can be pretty frustrating for filmmakers because they refuse to approve a lot of stuff, which means their movies never get aired or they work their way into niche independent film festivals. But on the other hand, it also tends to weed out some of the trash, too, because the censors can actually be concerned with quality to some extent, so they'll just refuse to approve something because it sucks.

>>410911
Being a Stalinist lunatic is one thing. But there's a long history of avant-garde artists who sympathize with socialist revolutions and then they "struggle" with the fact that those revolutions put a higher value on political dedication to socialism than that artist's individual personal journey or whatever.
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 No.410929

>>410923
>they "struggle" with the fact that those revolutions put a higher value on political dedication to socialism than that artist's individual personal journey or whatever.
Or whatver being that they interested in building something new and not be part of the red culture industry.
You are doubting Eisenstein dedication to socialism?
>concerned with quality to some extent, so they'll just refuse to approve something because it sucks.
What does it mean it sucks? Means that it won't bring the big public?
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 No.410939

>>410911
Not an argument. The USSR was democratic. Do you even know what they mean by 'soviet' and how their society worked?

The concept that Stalin or the soviet government were these WACKY crazy people who just made laws because they felt like it is idiotic, and akin to whatever imbecilic propaganda is spread against China and North Korea nowadays. I bet you also believe Kim banned certain haircuts in north korea and Xi will arrest your family if you post a winnie pooh image online
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 No.410958

>>410929
>You are doubting Eisenstein dedication to socialism?
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 No.410966

Anyone got the actual info on the ban?
Like when did it happen, what was the text of the law, what was said to justify it? What was the discussion in the soviets or the party? How was it enforced?
I hate these vague discussions about the SU doing this and that wrong with this and that being barely defined.
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 No.410980

Intelligentsia was shat on in the USSR and should be shat on in the future revolutions, shut the fuck up bougie boy, go do some office work the proles will be painting now.
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 No.411018

>>408916
>Then as well, the masses were attracted to Holly­wood comedies, jazz, novels depicting the "good life," and so on, but they were not drawn toward socialist realism, which,
because it was meant to educate, was unappealingly didactic, devoid of entertainment value and divorced from real life no less completely than Malevich's Black Square.
What the fuck is this cringe shit, numerous socialist realism novels and movies were blockbusters at the time, unless you gonna claim nkvd forced millions of people to buy books and go to theaters at gunpoint.
And "devoid of entertainment value and divorced from real life" confirms the author didn't actually read or watch any, lol.
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 No.411027

>>410939
>The USSR was democratic.
Bet you think america is democratic too. What a fucking clown.
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 No.411030

>>411027
No, USA isn't democratic, USSR was.
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 No.411033

>>410939
>>Xi will arrest your family if you post a winnie pooh image online
Apparently there are Winnie-the-Pooh themed rides in Shanghai and Hong Kong Disneyland and authorities aren't giving a f*** about it.
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 No.411034

>>

 No.411035

>>411027
America is the textbook definition of a high-functioning sham dictatorship disguised as democracy.
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 No.411036

>>410958
Alexander Nevsky is exactly the result of Stalin't reforms and suppression of the avant garde and rehabilitation of muh nationalism
>>411018
What the fuck they were supposed to watch? Infact there was a whole generation fetishing western commodities
>didn't actually read or watch any, lol.
Name 3 good socialist realist movies
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 No.411039

>>411030
Yep, nice democracy you have there when after stalins death a bunch of high state bureaucrats fucking distributed top positions among themselves. Fucking dishonest tanktards.
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 No.411046

>>411039
>Source(s): Death of Stalin (2017)
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 No.411048

>>411035
>America is the textbook definition of a high-functioning sham dictatorship disguised as democracy.
So just like ussr then.
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 No.411050

>>411048
>just like ussr then
Looks like you've consumed too much liberal media. Deprogram yourself, and get some help.
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 No.411051

>>411046
Lmao tanktard cope is strong with this one. Members of politburo literally distributed top positions on stalins dacha the day he died.
Such democracy..
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 No.411053

Being a democracy or not is not my concern.
Why the USSR had a culture industry as the US but red?
Why a country with a different economic system produce the same trash as a capitalist country?
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 No.411054

>>411050
You can call me liberal all you want, it doesnt change the fact that ussr wasnt a democracy in any sense of the word. Dishonest tanktards can seethe all they want .
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 No.411061

>>411036
>What the fuck they were supposed to watch?
Football or some shit, you can't claim they hated it yet kept coming to watch and buying books
>there was a whole generation fetishing western commodities
Generation brought up way later than time period discussed in the essay, after the push for socialist realism was long gone
>Name 3 good socialist realist movies
Not a big movie watcher so I'll have to leave you with novels
Quiet Flows the Don
How the Steel Was Tempered
The Two Captains
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 No.411062

>>411053
>Being a democracy or not is not my concern.
>Control of the means of production by the proletariat is not my concern.
Tankards everyone.
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 No.411065

>>411051
If that isn't your source I'd love to hear what is.
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 No.411070

>>411062
Open you thread if you want to call people tankie.
This thread has a specific question
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 No.411071

>>408897
The end result of siege socialism and the mentality of “building socialism within one country”. Communism in Stalin’s time was about keeping what they have and not expanding. That’s why he had the same attitude towards internationalism as culture and art. To preserve the current culture at all cause because anything new might be fascism in disguise. With the fizzling out of the German Spartakus, the Soviet’s revolutionary vigor began to waver because at first they were expecting that the establishment USSR will be one of many global sparks of communist revolution around the world, this didn’t happen. Most communist are either crushed with white terror or backed down. Combine this with the constant defense against very real capitalist sabotage and the entire western world already showed that they can set their differences aside to invade like they did in the civil war bred the hardline realists that Stalin was apart of into a very strong faction within the party. This phenomenon can also be seen in a much smaller scale with separate anarchist or feudal proto-communist communes always have an ingrained paranoia against progress.

Scientists working too much with international partners? Must be foreign spies! Concepts capitalist adopted to commodify? Complete reactionary! Artists making things that are not practical for the coming inevitable war with fascism? Unnecessary and a waste of resources! Laws promoting more progressive society? Capitalist decadence! This of course was the right politicizes to have back then, but at place they went overboard.

Another thing to note is that back then, avant-garde and futurism were adopted by both the reactionary right and the revolutionary left. Mussolini and pals at first coach tailed the futurist intellectuals to get into power. The Spanish civil war had almost half of their avant-garde artists supporting Franco and Fallangism. Futurists like Bogdanov didn’t really help this bad stigma when he subscribed to a bunch of quack pseudoscience.
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 No.411074

>>411065
Multiple eyewitness accounts. And in general there was no plenum or anything, and everyone was already in their new positions.
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 No.411078

>>410966
I have a couple books that might help. I haven't read them yet, but Evgeny Dobrenko seems to be a worthwhile resource on this subject (in addition to >>408916 Boris Groys)
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 No.411087

>>411078
Thanks, that looks interesting.
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 No.411088

>>411078
>>411071
These are based answers, thank you very much lads.
Other posters would be wise to learn from the basedness of these 2 posters here instead of muh USSR WAS 100% PERFECT or MUH USSR WAS 100% BAD
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 No.411092

>>411088
USSR had it's problems but art and culture in Stalin's period in particular wasn't one of them, it was it's peak.
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 No.411100

>>410923
>But there's a long history of avant-garde artists who sympathize with socialist revolutions and then they "struggle" with the fact that those revolutions put a higher value on political dedication to socialism than that artist's individual personal journey or whatever.
Speaking from a purely American perspective: artists here don't necessarily like to see themselves as workers. It's as if they (and more importantly, their patrons) do everything they can to divorce creativity from payment. There's a very real struggle experienced in the art 'world' (it's an industry just like any other), but few are willing or much less have the means to really talk about it.
>>411071
>Another thing to note is that back then, avant-garde and futurism were adopted by both the reactionary right and the revolutionary left.
This is what makes the Russian avant-garde so interesting to me. Their foray into futurism literally compelled artists to work in factories and create 'art for the masses' instead of romanticizing speed and dying in a great war. The communist party was the avant-garde of the revolution! It pains me so much that art historians have slept on VKhUTEMAS in favor of the Bauhaus.
>>411087
>>411088
There's also this book but it's out of print: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300122800/political-economy-socialist-realism
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 No.411108

>>411071
>The end result of siege socialism and the mentality of “building socialism within one country”. Communism in Stalin’s time was about keeping what they have and not expanding. That’s why he had the same attitude towards internationalism as culture and art.
Socialism in one country may have it's flaws, but it's not anti-internationalist.
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 No.411238

>>411230
Sure whatever the novels were fire though
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 No.411245

>>411108
>not anti-internationalist
<Use other communist countries you’ve just established post ww2 as buffer
<the Greek civil war
<the Yugoslav- Soviet split
<the splitting of the Korean Peninsula and subsequent refusal in joint the UN to help Kim Il Sung
<not even guaranteed their help when the French came back to Indochina
Mautism only brought it to the logical conclusion of national chauvinism. It was necessary at the time of inception but post WW2 it was woefully inadequate in dealing with the global decolonization struggle. That said the ideology itself isn’t fully anti-internationalistic but its results made the struggle more separate and mutually exclusive, an easy prey for imperialist divide and conquer. For instance, the idea of building socialism in one country also stopped us from making the domino effect a reality.
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 No.411269

>>411245
>the splitting of the Korean Peninsula and subsequent refusal in joint the UN to help Kim Il Sung
That was 100% america right there. What the ussr could do about it?
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 No.411308

mainly because avante-garde was associated with wetsern, captialist ideals. either way realism is better IMO, but art can be good in different forms
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 No.411312

>>411308
But art doesn't have to be good it has to be revolutionary if i'm building communism
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 No.411440

>>408908
This is a very rightful fear.
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 No.411558

Socialist Realism actually represents the working class. Abstract art is largely useless and serves no purpose.

People merely hate socialist realism because they're nietzschean cretins who despise the proletariat in all its reality. Like rats who flee the sun, they fear the brilliant light of working class life and struggle to cast off the chains over the centuries.

A film like Chapayev is a thousand times more useful to communism than any abstract art and was enormously popular among the Soviet workers, as is a novel like How the Steel Was Tempered. Proletarians don't need abstract radicalism, but accurate depictions of our struggle.

Turning away from reality and materialism is the surest sign of a coward, an idealist, and a bourgeois wretch.

And those cretins who sneer at socialist realism for being supposedly boring are really revealing their own class nature and hatred of the proletariat.

https://thecommunists.org/2018/08/01/news/history/andrei-zhdanov-on-the-principles-underlying-soviet-literature-and-art/
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 No.411563

>>411558
based based based BASED BASED BASED BASED BASED
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 No.411584

How the Steel Was Tempered should unironically be required reading
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 No.411587

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>>411558
>There are retards who hate socialist realism for retarded reasons
>Therefore anything that isn't socialist realism is bad art and anti-communist
>Therefore abstract art is anti-communist
Close to the most retarded thought process in this thread. Bring back actual Lenin hat, at least he had a point about the flaws of reifying the working class rather then creating art that encapsulates the superseding of class itself. Socialist realism had its place, context, and time. Now that context is gone, and to repeat it would nothing but dishonest and inauthentic.
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 No.411595

>>411587
>Now that context is gone
Class struggle? Pretty sure it's still around.
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 No.411606

>>411245
Nothing you stated is a part of socialism in one country, and socialism in one country does not deny the export of the revolution, rather is it simply aims at first creating a robust revolutionary center from which the revolution can then be exported to elsewhere in a sufficient fashion. It has nothing to do with "national chauvinism" either.
>>411595
>Class struggle? Pretty sure it's still around.
Class struggle is absolutely still around. The surrounding context and the labour itself has absolutely changed though, and what people need is a possible vision of the future, and not an idealization of the belittling labour they perform in the rotting corpse of now.
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 No.411618

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>>411587
Socialist Realism is the only real form of proletarian art yet devised. Certainly the best, most accurate and inspiring. I didn't call abstract art inherently anti-communist. I accept that some constructivists supported Bolshevism. But no, socialist realism is still necessary.
This is what I mean, little snivelling bourgeois liberals sneer that it's something for thick-skulled proletarians, something outdated and totally old school brooooooooo.

Well I say down with all the liars, the idealists, the shit for brains aristocrats who hate us. We need socialist realism more than ever. It's a lightning bolt of truth that pierces the fog of mysticism and obscurantism.
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 No.411625

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>>411030
So democratic that when the referendum to keep it together gave a mayority to "yes" , the aparatchiks just ignored the results and a couple of months later there was no more USSR
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 No.411640

It was bad to ban other art (just giving away the muh culture argument to burgers with their rock and roll) but I don't see a problem with socialist realism and putting reources toward propaganda is necessary. It's a fine aesthetic for them to go with.
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 No.411641

>>411606
>idealization of the belittling labour they perform
Bro that's not what socialist realism is
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 No.411652

>>411618
>Socialist Realism is the only real form of proletarian art yet devised.
Well that's just lie. There's no basis for this, just like it would have no basis in regards to discussing historical conceptions of bourgeoisie art.
>Certainly the best, most accurate and inspiring.
Depends on the context.
>I didn't call abstract art inherently anti-communist. I accept that some constructivists supported Bolshevism. But no, socialist realism is still necessary.
In the past? Debatably. Today? You'd just be creating what is effectively a facsimile, a dishonest repetition that lacks the initial context that birthed it and made it what it was. It would be no different then the bourgeoisie of today derivatively repeating revolutionary period colonial architecture or romantic art pieces in an era which it lacks the substance which birthed it.
>This is what I mean, little snivelling bourgeois liberals sneer that it's something for thick-skulled proletarians, something outdated and totally old school brooooooooo.
I don't sneer at it, I respect it in the context it existed in, as I do all art. I only "sneer" at people who treat it as nothing more then aesthetic, and who try to manufacture what is the equivalent of a tribute band to satiate their own proclivities, while claiming it to be genuine and of similar substance.its not something for "thick skulled" people, it's for the people from which the conditions of the time founded the conditions for such art.
>Well I say down with all the liars, the idealists, the shit for brains aristocrats who hate us. We need socialist realism more than ever. It's a lightning bolt of truth that pierces the fog of mysticism and obscurantism.
Actual larp. Analyze the context of your time and conditions rather then trying to inauthentically replicate what doesn't exist for you, and like those of the past who did make such good work and were revolutionary in their conception, forge your own path in that immortal tradition of artistic closures and births.
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 No.411654

>>411641
>Bro that's not what socialist realism is
No, it isn't. Today though, it would be. The context is what matters, and conditions art emerges in.
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 No.411655

Gonna bet 9 out of 10 mfers in this thread seriously think "socialist realism" is literally just realistic pictures of muscly dude in overalls standing in a factory lol
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 No.411662

>>411654
I beg you, pick one random socrealism novel and check out how working life before the revolution is depicted.
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 No.411670

>>411655
it usually is though. herculean proportions were very common as a way of lionizing the worker.
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 No.411672

>>411652
The basis for it is that it was born in the proletarian dictatorship as a product of intense discussion among Soviet artists, writers and film makers. The fact that you think defending socialist realism is a "LARP" says it all, you're one of those people who can't imagine working class people standing for anything and you can't imagine anyone having the gall to show the working class in reality. It's not unique to the 1930s USSR, it's a way of depicting PROLETARIAN life no matter the era. Realism in depicting how we live, work, fight, think and die. It should be applied everywhere, there is a gaping hole and we need proletarian writers who write realisitically and dialectically. What exists for us is CLASS SOCIETY, the same as it did when Gorky was writing in the 1900s, the same as it did when Ostrovsky wrote about the life before 1917 and the civil war. The bourgeoisie turned to idealism and metaphysics in the 19th century, so they can't produce anything of note these days.
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 No.411680

>>411655
>it's not ackchyually socialist realism
>it's just sparkling propaganda
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 No.411767

>>411662
>I beg you, pick one random socrealism novel and check out how working life before the revolution is depicted.
I am more then aware. I'm discussing our particular conditions, where socialist realism would not suffice for the modern day, as what we need is aspirations of the future beyond our system.
>>411672
>The basis for it is that it was born in the proletarian dictatorship as a product of intense discussion among Soviet artists, writers and film makers.
Among other things.
>The fact that you think defending socialist realism is a "LARP" says it all, you're one of those people who can't imagine working class people standing for anything and you can't imagine anyone having the gall to show the working class in reality.
Where did I state this? You're either projecting or hysterically assuming me to be something I'm not. I have no issue with defending socialist realism, and in fact I defended it in this very thread. However, I do not see it as suitable for today. I respect socialist realism to understand the particular context it existed in, and respect it fully in such a regard. Our situation does not demand socialist realism though.
>It's not unique to the 1930s USSR, it's a way of depicting PROLETARIAN life no matter the era. Realism in depicting how we live, work, fight, think and die. It should be applied everywhere, there is a gaping hole and we need proletarian writers who write realisitically and dialectically. What exists for us is CLASS SOCIETY, the same as it did when Gorky was writing in the 1900s, the same as it did when Ostrovsky wrote about the life before 1917 and the civil war. The bourgeoisie turned to idealism and metaphysics in the 19th century, so they can't produce anything of note these days.
No. Its entirely insufficient for our day where art must itself become revolutionary in substance, which means a radical emergence of new art styles which foreshadows a system that does not reify the proletariat, but moves beyond it. And I think you make many assumptions regarding the reality of today, because it is not the optimistic upwelling that socialist realism provided in it's time (not to say socialist realism was always optimistic, but largely so) rather then that of alienated and distraught lives consumed in desperation. It was not socialist realism which embodied the revolution at the crossroads between systems, rather it simply exemplified the proletariat as proletariat afterwords.
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 No.411776

>>411767
>Among other things.
lol and what's that supposed to mean? Old evil Stalin being a big meanie to the r-r-r-radical avant-garde? Well fuck them.
>Where did I state this?
You said I was "larping".
Our situation DOES demand socialist realism. There's no fucking realism, it's all fake bullshit and mysticism. I don't care about "reifying" or whatever academic bullshit terms are used by frauds to justify portraying the working class as stupid cattle.
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 No.411778

>>411776
And socialist realism doesn't have to be optimistic, just, as it says, realistic. But it should always reflect the workers struggling for a better life, which is reality, unless you pretend class struggle doesn't occur
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 No.411824

>>411776
>lol and what's that supposed to mean? Old evil Stalin being a big meanie to the r-r-r-radical avant-garde? Well fuck them.
No, and at no point did I make the claim that Stalin was "evil". Stalin was a respectable revolutionary and politician, with his own merits and failings as any other person may have. It's just that the view on art at that time shared by those around him, and yes, him as well, was unfortunately flawed in some ways.
>You said I was "larping".
Because you were. You don't operate in the spirit of those revolutionaries of the past and analyze it's substance to carry it forward, you adopt it's form formost above all else.
>Our situation DOES demand socialist realism. There's no fucking realism, it's all fake bullshit and mysticism. I don't care about "reifying" or whatever academic bullshit terms are used by frauds to justify portraying the working class as stupid cattle.
I agree on the point of mysticism. And I agree in socialist rhetoric being grounded in the real struggles of today. But that is not the same as readopting socialist realism like some liberal or traditionalist may readopt pet art forms that titillate them. "Reifying" is also not some kind of "academic bullshit" term "used by frauds", it's a term that you as a communist should be more then aware of. And at no point did I state that the working class should be portrayed as "stupid cattle", and it's dishonest and snake like to imply such. If anything, I stated a need to go beyond and have the working class be shown as not merely people forever within the confines of class, but a progressing force which containers within it the catalyst of disposing of class itself, a people beyond classes with the power and potential to wield and shape their world and their future, far more then any petty class of the past could ever hope to.
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 No.411829

>>411778
>And socialist realism doesn't have to be optimistic, just, as it says, realistic.
To a large degree, it was defined in it's optimism.
>But it should always reflect the workers struggling for a better life, which is reality, unless you pretend class struggle doesn't occur
Class struggle does occur, but it's important to differentiate between simply struggling to move up a peg in the economic strata of bourgeoisie society, and actual meaningful class struggle that aims to dispose of the system itself. The former happens plenty, but the latter is lacking.
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 No.411902

>>411655
That's not socialist realism, that's my fetish
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 No.412025

>>411269
The Soviet wasn’t able to veto the decision because they were boycotting the UN at the time. Pretty retarded if you ask me.
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 No.412038

>>412025
I mean to be fair to the Soviets once they realized the mistake they made in abstaining they never again boycotted and even the Russian Federation today constantly uses their veto to get the Amerikkkans to fuck off
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 No.412531

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>>411558
I bet I'm more proletarian than your petty-bourgeois ass, and I love me some abstract art. Fuck these shackles of flesh and fuck your stale realism. Let the mind ascend to the realms unknown, to the realm of ideas and metaphors, of abstract geometrical lines and figures, of abstract colors. Your socrealism reeks of death and decaying flesh, I don't need it and you don't speak for me.
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 No.412722

>>411824
You're talking drivel. The working class art form is socialist realism.
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 No.412731

>>411440
>Being scared of rock music
>Very rightful
Do you think socialism is this pathetically weak?
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 No.412733

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anime is basically soc realism (fantasy realism)
because it depicts everyday setting except in unrealistic way (because realistic would be like photo/boring)


funny its called realism but its not realistic (technically)
ppl still have this problem with japan memes (because real japan is nothing like in my animes)
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 No.412744

>>412722
> The working class art form is socialist realism.
What about prior Soviet art forms as well as working class art in other countries
Also on a theoretical note, this statement invalidates the idea that the USSR had socialism (or lenin's lower stage of communism) as declared by Stalin in his acceptance speech and contemporaneous with socialist realism - proletariat ceases to exist under socialism. So how can it be a working class art form under truly existing socialism, it's nonsense I say!
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 No.412778

>>412722
No, you're a fucking dumb reactionary liberal, only my art is real working class art.

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