[ home / overboard / sfw / alt / cytube] [ leftypol / b / WRK / hobby / tech / edu / ga / ent / music / 777 / posad / i / a / lgbt / R9K / dead ] [ meta ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Email
Subject
Comment
Captcha
Tor Only

Flag
File
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)

Matrix   IRC Chat   Mumble


File: 1627432153771.png ( 54.77 KB , 687x586 , whiteness.PNG )

 No.405822

Let's have an actual, legitimate thread for once about problems with radlib and race reductionist ideology, and idpol. One where we actually talk about theory, and the relationship between these ideas and their history to the working class movement. This is not a thread to argue about whatever culture war issue is on your mind at the moment.

I found this post very alarming, for how clearly it stated a primary, usually unstated, tenet of identity politics:
"you're white before you're anything else"
In this analysis, race is the literal focal point of an intelligent being's existence. It's very interaction with the world, it's very perception of the things around it, is decided, first and foremost, through race. Identity is a first principle. Epistemology is grounded in it (i.e. you have to a certain identity to have an opinion about something, only people of a certain identity should have positions of leadership in a revolutionary movement, etc.).

This primacy of identity is the very essence of what identity politics actually means. It's an extremely useful tool to divide people apart. People cannot ever be in solidarity with each other, working together for the same ends, if they are, by immutable nature, natural enemies who are physically, biologically, and philosophically incapable of understanding the other's feelings.

All identity politics furthers this "othering", in ways that can be very different, and have very different consequences. In right wing propaganda, you'll typically see this othering applied in a sadistic direction. Remember the old "humans vs orcs" post? The idea was to paint people of the audience's identity as real people, and all outside of the in-group as non-human others. In picrel, the same effect is used in a different way. It's used in a masochistic direction. The audience is supposed to feel bad about themselves, as beings of moral agency. People of color aren't discussed as people per se, but rather distant arbiters of judgement. They are quietly othered. They are objects put on the outside, judging the audience. They know all, and they know all your sins. They were put here to destroy you and your happiness, and that's a good thing.

The absolute worst nightmare of an identity politician is that people of different backgrounds, cultures, etc. will actually talk to each other like human beings, rather than see each other as malevolent forces of nature, which impose moral responsibilities for either destruction or self-destruction.

I should be more specific, and say here that in the context of american race relations, the longstanding great lie of identity politics is that white workers only have something to lose from working with workers of color. But in reality the opposite is true. The workers of the world have everything to gain by shaking hands, blowing off the propaganda, looking each other in the eye, and working together. Working class people of all races, genders, nations, cultures, and what have you have far more in common with each other than some twisted pedophilic senator financed by the Koch brothers, no matter what their twitter profile looks like.

What can we, as leftists, do to spread positive pro-solidarity messages? It's not enough to just dismiss the idpol bullshit, a firm position, consistent and widely supported, is needed to create a positive force for unity within the working class. Post your thoughts.
>>

 No.405832

Sure I'll begin, the united states is divided on every aspect of identity including race religion age demographic class gender and sexuality. It's been like this since it's inception and will continue to carry these problems and spread it to other neoliberal countries like france south Africa britain germany and more
>>

 No.405845

>>405832
To fix a problem like this is through individualism, Individualism is the easiest way to achieve unity within a population, the individual is the smallest minority and likewise if an entire population reduces their view on themselves to a single statistic they become unable to use their identity to gain or lose anything in life. Theres an increasing push in pink capitalism to achieve this yet due to capitalist ethics they want you to have an identity as different products can be marketed to different demographics and hence they will use your identity against you in hopes you'll pay more for the same product
>>

 No.405854

File: 1627432722401.jpg ( 189.29 KB , 653x1224 , 9b76188b50931c8f79970a16a8….jpg )

>>405845
To offset demographic based marketing socialists and planned economists should vow to impose restrictions on how advertising giants like google are allowed to host advertisers and what they are allowed to do when trying to spread the name of their brand to prevent exploitation of proles that could otherwise lead to divisions within a populace leading to things like discrimination, ethnic violence and exploitation
>>

 No.405861

>>405832
Then came the killing of George Floyd. That's when radlib ideology starts to ramp up. People are fallen prey to these toxic, anti-left, pro-capitalist, pro-US ideologies. You now got progressives in the House of Representatives (AOC, Omar, Tlaib).
>>

 No.405865

>>405861
I always thought the murder of rodney king was what ramped up id/pol/ as SJW theory has been around since the 60s, hell you can find articles on "white priviledge" written as far back as the 90s
>>

 No.405869

>>405865
Oh, you're probably a bit wrong. As an MSM+Wikipedia veteran I kept track of all of those issues.
>>

 No.405872

File: 1627433099533.pdf ( 102.47 KB , 67x118 , White-Privilege_McIntosh-1….pdf )

>>405865
Here it is
https://psychology.umbc.edu › …PDF
Web results
White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible … - UMBC Psychology
>>

 No.405876

The GF and BLM riots didn't start off that cucked, but the M$M successfully was able to inject the bullshit that canceled the interracial action and turned it into a Democrat puppeted.
>>

 No.405877

>>405869
Bcs more and more young people are blindly following radlibism and as a 16 year old myself I think it's a bit trendy. Combine it with pro-Americanism and boom!
>>

 No.405885

>>405876
they were liberal race based riots cucked from the beginning
>>

 No.405895

>>405885
I thought they really fought for justice, equality, righteousness, systemic racism,and so on, and so on.
>>

 No.405899

>>405895
If your thinking either american party gives a flying shit about equality and justice your retarded being both parties want to annihilate the western middle class along with exploiting the working class till the point where the american population is split between corporate monopolies run by the greediest capitalists and proles
>>

 No.405905

>>405872
And just after reading this article for the fifth time in my life it's still sounds like it was written by an unironic mentally I'll freak. My christ id/pol/ fags are crazy
>>

 No.405912

>>405899
Oh. Seems like I've read too much tasty MSM. BUT WHY ARE MSM HEADLINES SO APPEALING, AND THEIR CONTENTS SO EASY TO UNDERSTAND??
>>

 No.405914

>>405895
sounds like you're repeating a campaign slogan

BLM is liberal racial politics, another extension of neo liberalism, read marx
>>

 No.405917

>>405912
That's why I made these 2 threads:
>>398259
>>387876
All I got were harrasment messages.
>>

 No.405920

>>405912
Private media companies like fox and cnn exist for profit via selling you the viewer to advertisers hence why most news articles written by those institutions are clickbaity in nature and exist to grab your attention
>>

 No.405923

File: 1627433993934.jpg ( 118.96 KB , 1024x682 , 1595437118540.jpg )

>>405895
>they really fought for justice, equality, righteousness, systemic
>>

 No.405939

>>405923
>/pol/ image
>>

 No.405944

File: 1627434417602.png ( 134.21 KB , 871x567 , 4sxufrbr5kz11.png )

IMO one of the core problems with idpol is that people conceptualize identities as being innate or essential (in the sense that it's an essense). They have a paradoxical view that simultaneously race and racism are social categories but also they are somehow based in material reality and not simply imposed upon people in material ways.

Another core problem is the moralism that gets wrapped up in the discussion. There will be some token reference to systems (they all love to say "systemic racism"), but the way they actually approach the problem is that there are good and bad people. Maybe not so simple as this race is good and that race is bad, but that there are good and bad members of a given race based on whether their actions contribute to the problem. This is what you get when you combine:
<hyper-individualism trying to understand a systemic problem
<echoes of christian morality

But there's an even deeper issue here, which is that a lot of people do not actually care about solving the problem. They are only interested in these topics insofar as they can use them to show they are woke, righteous, whatever, or as a way to avoid being labeled as the opposite. If you actually do want to solve a problem (and you have a modicum of problem-solving skill, which to be fair the average westerner does not), you start trying to analyze and understand how the problem works so you can find what to do about it. And if you analyze idpol topics to try to find the root, you are led to capitalism, even if you are not any kind of leftist. An honest look at the history here makes it pretty clear how all these forms of oppression serve class systems and the framework of "civilization" built on that.

Then you have another problem, which you could say is deeper still or perhaps is just broader in scope. People do not think in materialist terms. They think in very idealist terms. Even if you want to solve the problem, have problem solving skills, do not get moralistic about the topic, or think in terms of essences, it's extremely common (almost ubiquitous) for people to think of these problems as abstract first and material only as a consequence, as if racism (for instance) is just an idea that exists and can spread, and that when people have racist ideas they do racist things like slavery. The reversal here is perhaps most critical. Ideology follows from the material. It exists to justify the political economy, which is the base that is reproducing itself and using ideology to manage and smooth out that process. It's not that ideas make the world. People need to understand that slavery didn't happen because of racism, but that racism happened because of slavery.
>>

 No.405965

>>405961
Omfh why are you spamming i've spammed and a one day ban was granted
>>

 No.405985

File: 1627435236640.png ( 2.25 MB , 800x1067 , ClipboardImage.png )

>>405872
>>405905
This is the author of tht essay btw.
>>

 No.405999

File: 1627435403890.jpeg ( 8.75 KB , 202x249 , download (10).jpeg )

>>405944
Good point, capitalist viewpoints enable horrific behaviour in the name of material wealth even if that wealth is made irresponsibly leading to hyper destructive tendencies due to the rate of profit, most people would immediately start screeching their heads off if you mentioned how id/pol/ is a byproduct of capitalism as it breeds profits due to conditioning and normalization of it. The only time where multiculturalism and diversity was used as a force to improve peoples lives in a genuine effort was in the USSR and the CCP that there were reports of even africans and gypsies receiving far better treatment than any of their capitalist predecessors they inhabited and for other ethnicities including southern slavs pre Yugoslavia, uyghurs(they actually face more discrimination outside of china with reports of lynchings in pakistan where they should objectively be treated better), and arabs
>>

 No.406002

File: 1627435429233-0.mp4 ( 4.21 MB , 480x600 , xNH8Qb5KcM09dKdk.mp4 )

File: 1627435429233-1.mp4 ( 18.07 MB , 1280x720 , facts.mp4 )

File: 1627435429233-2.mp4 ( 3.6 MB , 848x464 , Deu3Ne9wP0ypBx28.mp4 )

File: 1627435429233-3.png ( 213.02 KB , 734x1297 , Pic Comment.png )

>>405885
>>405899
>>405914
>>405923
Fucking newfags, learn to separate the organization and the rest of the liberal shit from the actual protestors and rioters on the ground. These are not the same thing, and even during the riots the majority of anons were completely aware of this. Fuck, when even working class redditors have a better take then you on BLM, you know you've fucked up.
>>

 No.406020

>>406002
>White supreamacy doesn't care about poor white people.
This needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

The core grift of white supremacy is to fool whitey into thinking they are better off with white supremacy simply because they have it better (less bad) than nonwhite people. This is the narrative of "white privilege" as used by liberals today. That narrative is the lynchpin of white supremacy. If whitey understands that white supremacy is keeping them afraid to end up as poor off as black people so they don't realize that they're a lot worse of than they could be. It's smoke and mirrors shit. If you keep people too focused on a scary alternative (and the only alternative whites are supposed to imagine is basically trading places with black people, which is why racists freak out when they see "black faces in high places"), they are too preoccupied to realize their position is actually not good and they have a lot of gain by overthrowing the system that "privileges" them.
>>

 No.406029

File: 1627435913065.jpg ( 374.92 KB , 1200x797 , the-old-flag-never-touched….jpg )

>>405944
Help me out here because I'm a beginner to Marxism. The superstructure – which includes ideas – is created from material conditions in society (racism happened because of slavery) but doesn't the superstructure also shape and maintain the base? So it's not enough to simply rearrange the base. Wouldn't that be "economism?" There is a political battle in the superstructure going on too. To eliminate slavery, it was necessary to destroy a whole political superstructure that maintained it as well, although it was material reasons too why that happened – the Union was more materially productive, they had more guns, they had more money, more railroads and all that good stuff too.

There's also cultural hegemony, right? Capitalist and bourgeois values prevail for material reasons at the root: the liberal media is really powerful and there's lot of money behind it. If we want to look at media critically, we have to look at who is funding it and so on. Or there is some glow media that is funded by foundations with CIA money, that is going to shape the dominant ideas of society. But you have also challenge the ideas, don't you? You need to build a material foundation to do that. You need to challenge racist ideas because those do help maintain the base, doesn't it?



About "white privilege." I'm a white man in America. And it's very obvious that I am, if you saw me walking down the street. And I have to think that this fact – that I am perceived as a white man – shapes my interactions with society's institutions. Like… the police. Isn't that like what Althusser was referring to when he came up "interpellation?" People are "hailed" by institutions, like the police shouting "hey, you!" Or other institutions like right-wing media (funded by big business) says "hey, white man, you're under threat from blacks/immigrants/uppity women!" or whatever you want. Some of these interactions are one-sided and involuntary (i.e. the police), some of these interactions are multi-sided, or like a conversation. Or some are not necessarily involuntary but they are one-sided (media talking *to* you), but cultural hegemony gives the media's "hailing" of people a lot of reach in society. And white men in America are shaped by these "hails" from various institutions addressing them, and one result is that many white men have been "interpellated" in ways not necessarily positive for others.
>>

 No.406040

>>406029
Just read the sticky man
>>

 No.406095

OP here. I disagree with the takes of many people here who are so quick to dismiss any good news from the mass anti-government riots that took place last year, whose sentiment has not yet remotely withered away. The reaction to the death of George Floyd, the resulting national conversation about the role of the police, the riots that followed, the (admittedly unbelievably poorly planned and kind of stupid) takeover of a city block in Seattle, a police officer going to jail for killing a black man.

Look at how the right wing feels about these movements. Look at how terrifying the liberal political establishment, and the American politicians, were. They were desperate to save face and rebrand themselves. And despite their heavy-handed attempts to endear themselves to an american people who were getting sick of oppression by a racist and imperialist government, I don't know a single person who fell for it. People all across the board were unanimous in decrying the corporations and media for trying to give false concessions like removing aunt jemima and censoring social media and shit like that.

The leadership of Black Lives Matter the organization proper, as far as I know, is a bunch of liberals, but the Black Lives Matter movement, and the anti-government riots that took place all across the country last year, were undoubtedly a step forward for class consciousness.
>>

 No.406107

>>406002
Based and slaps down the annoying reddit libs pilled
BOOGxBLMxANTIFA NOW
>>

 No.406113

>>406029
>The superstructure – which includes ideas – is created from material conditions in society (racism happened because of slavery) but doesn't the superstructure also shape and maintain the base?
Yes, hence "using ideology to manage and smooth out that process." Ideology is useful to the shaping of society but it's not the first cause of it. This was one of if not the key insight of Marx. Most people historically and today think that big people and big ideas are what makes history, as opposed to social systems that work in the real physical world and reproduce themselves as physical processes. Ideology is just an extension of that. Superstructure isn't just ideas btw, it's basically everything outside the core of the economic engine which in capitalism is commodity production. The factory is part of the base, but the labor laws, the cops, and so on are superstructure.
>So it's not enough to simply rearrange the base. Wouldn't that be "economism?" There is a political battle in the superstructure going on too.
The issue at hand isn't which domain the battle takes place in (it's both), but that the consciousness liberals are working with doesn't grasp that there is a material base at all. And correcting false consciousness is part of the political battle in the superstructure.
>To eliminate slavery, it was necessary to destroy a whole political superstructure that maintained it as well, although it was material reasons too why that happened – the Union was more materially productive, they had more guns, they had more money, more railroads and all that good stuff too.
Yes.

>There's also cultural hegemony, right? Capitalist and bourgeois values prevail for material reasons at the root: the liberal media is really powerful and there's lot of money behind it. If we want to look at media critically, we have to look at who is funding it and so on. Or there is some glow media that is funded by foundations with CIA money, that is going to shape the dominant ideas of society.

Yes.
>But you have also challenge the ideas, don't you?
Yes, which is what the critique of the liberal ideology is for.
>You need to build a material foundation to do that. You need to challenge racist ideas because those do help maintain the base, doesn't it?
Yes, and this includes the liberal ideas that feed into racism.


>About "white privilege." I'm a white man in America. And it's very obvious that I am, if you saw me walking down the street. And I have to think that this fact – that I am perceived as a white man – shapes my interactions with society's institutions.

It does. The problem with "white privilege" is not that it's technically incorrect. The problem is that the framing is wrong.
>Like… the police. Isn't that like what Althusser was referring to when he came up "interpellation?" People are "hailed" by institutions, like the police shouting "hey, you!" Or other institutions like right-wing media (funded by big business) says "hey, white man, you're under threat from blacks/immigrants/uppity women!" or whatever you want. Some of these interactions are one-sided and involuntary (i.e. the police), some of these interactions are multi-sided, or like a conversation. Or some are not necessarily involuntary but they are one-sided (media talking *to* you), but cultural hegemony gives the media's "hailing" of people a lot of reach in society. And white men in America are shaped by these "hails" from various institutions addressing them, and one result is that many white men have been "interpellated" in ways not necessarily positive for others.
The problem with this framing is that everyone is being "interpellated" and when black people are "interpellated" and filled with bullets that isn't about white people. It's about black people and their relationship to class society. There are exceptions but most of "white privilege" is looking at active, heightened oppression and violence toward nonwhite people and centering the topic on white people instead and given that it's mostly done by white people it's a form of self-congratulatory narcissism. This is doing a couple of important things. It's framing nonwhite people as the default/baseline above which white people are elevated by privilege. It's also defining oppression as a benefit to anybody who isn't being oppressed that way. The problem with the first part is that in a white supremacist culture white is of course the default and people who aren't white are comparatively worse off not (primarily) because being white is rewarded but because not being white is punished. This is how normativity works most of the time - being normal is allowed an ignored while being different is met with "corrective" punishment. It's only by a sort of utilitarian framing of reward and punishment as opposite equivalents that the logic of "violence against black people is white privilege" is even possible. Which brings me to the second thing. White people don't benefit from nonwhite people being victimized. Not in absolute terms. The white man who benefits from a black man getting shot by the police is that cop getting paid time off. The majority of the inequalities around race are purely examples of life being made shittier for nonwhite people. This """benefits""" white people in relative terms, i.e. when you frame the situations as related to each other. White people only "have it better because black people have it worse" when you define "have it better" in relation to other people (who have it worse) instead of in relation to your own conditions and the alternative possibilities, such as how good/bad you have it in the real world today vs how things would be for you in an alternative present/future without white supremacy. The truth is that everyone has it better (than they themselves otherwise would) when their position is improved. It's the same kind of logic as "there are children starving in Africa so don't complain about your problems." The fact that somebody has worse problems doesn't mean your problems don't exist, or in the extreme version we're dealing with here that the "real" problem is that the better off people don't have those worse problems. It's a very clever trick being pulled on people.

And funnily enough, oppressing nonwhite people causes a lot of social problems, from crime to depressed wages and in fact if this were to change and nonwhite people had it as good as white people do, white people would be better off than they used to be. If you no longer have a designated underclass being paid shit wages, it's easier to do collective bargaining because you can't be fired and replaced with cheaper labor, and the minimum level of pay has increased. If there's less poverty and crime, you are safer. This applies to everybody, including white people. Even in the short term oppressing nonwhite people and making their lives shittier makes society worse for everybody, so fixing that means that (putting revolution etc aside) white people stand to gain in the short term.
>>

 No.406128

File: 1627438258109.png ( 189.24 KB , 1280x1122 , 1626376500830.png )

>>405965
>Omfh why are you spamming i've spammed and a one day ban was granted
>>

 No.406129

>>406113
tldr cope seethe dilate have sex yikes rent free this is now a spiderman thread
>>

 No.406133

>>406029
>I'm a beginner to Marxism
well you're a quick learner because your theory is pretty good. You've got a better grasp of materialism than the average leftypol poster.

As for your point about white privilege, I think you have a point to an extent. People in different cultures and social roles are socialized differently, and they are treated differently. There wouldn't be such a thing as racism if black people and white people weren't treated differently.

But I think that the white privilege narrative masks two important facts:
1. as you stated, that while racism as an ideological force does need to be combated as part of an ideological struggle, racism as ideology per se is not the origin of racial hierarchy, white supremacy, and so on. The material class differences, justice and policing systems, redlined districts, and so on and so on are the source of the problem, the spring where racism pours out.
2. This state of affairs is brought onto individual members of the system externally. It cannot be rectified by bullying a white man into not being interpellated in such a way. Even if he dedicates himself to the task, it will not change much, except make a lot of people look very silly.
>>

 No.406137

>>406095
The thing about the Floyd riots and their impact is that the average person's understanding of the topic is not very visible at the moment. Everybody saw what was happening and heard a lot of things during that process and are now stewing on it.
>>

 No.406142

>>406129
Nobody's even disagreeing really. It's just fleshing out other points that were already being made.
>>

 No.406143

>>406113
you said it better than I did, comrade. Good post
>>

 No.406149

Mods why did you sage this thread it was actually good :(
>>

 No.406179

bumped again
>>

 No.406182

>>406113
Thanks! That's very helpful.
>>

 No.406185

>>406002
yeah there were actual socialists that got conned into participating in corporate race riots. I believe that has been the story since it was happening
>>

 No.406186

>>406113
Whoa. That's a lott of stuff right there. Ayway thanks! I'm taking notes of it later.

I'm also new into leftism like >>406029
>>

 No.406191

>>406133
Got it
>>

 No.406196

>>406185
Or… socialists took advantage of it to shit on capitalism in front of crowds of people on the street. This "oh, this is co-opted" and so forth is not so much of a worry for me. Big business tries to do it, but shouldn't socialists be out there giving speeches exactly like that? It's like ceding the ground to the enemy.
>>

 No.406248

>>406196
if your spouting things like >>406095 its pretty clear who was using who. It didn't get "co-opted", it was started from capital and used a few loud Marxists as a cover to blame so the general public doesn't blame the corporations that created it. It is an impediment to class conscious by conflating corporate racial riots and Marxism.
>>

 No.406281

>>406248
I'm talking about the videos you replied to with the speaker talking about how racism divides people so they don't talk about capitalism and people were applauding. That's good! I think we should do more of that. Loud Marxists? Marxists should be loud. Grab the mic and use it, man.

Anyways, a cop murdered a guy and an angry crowd burned down a police station. I remember MSNBC – liberal media – blaming Russian bots at the very beginning. Then a crowd laid siege to the CNN lobby.
>>

 No.406283

File: 1627441372102.png ( 2.7 MB , 1242x1250 , Now that’s Praxis.png )

>>

 No.406305

>>406281
nah dude. If it was done by black people it had to be bourgeois, obviously. Cops, CNN, Biden, the proud boys, and the KKK were obviously communist freedom fighters being oppressed by the evil poor black people who were paid by the bourgeois to pretend to be oppressed. God bless America!
>>

 No.406341

>>406281
unfortunately I don't believe few thousand people in a park get to hear some rhetoric vs millions that now think that BLM is was a Marxist uprising is a fair trade.
>>406305
the media didn't just admit to starting it they bragged about it. If the Facebook ect. sponsorship wasn't enough to cue you in
>>

 No.406632

>>405822
>OP-pic
What class is revil4 ?
>>

 No.407522

>>406632
https://alteanhero.carrd.co/#about
well according to the information publicly available on their blog, they're a 19 year old black enby whose not from the United States. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say there aren't many bourgeoisie marth kinnies. Combined with the fact that they reblog a lot of donation beg posts on their blog, I'm gonna say that they're either a worker or unemployed.

Unique IPs: 15

[Return][Catalog][Top][Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / overboard / sfw / alt / cytube] [ leftypol / b / WRK / hobby / tech / edu / ga / ent / music / 777 / posad / i / a / lgbt / R9K / dead ] [ meta ]
ReturnCatalogTopBottomHome