/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>Is Marx a statist?
Marx is neither a "statist" nor an "anti-statist". I never knew why would use lolbert language. Marx viewed the state as a dictatorship of a given class, and before classes are abolished, the state will prevail.
>I watched this video
FinnBol has made an extensive response to it:
https://youtu.be/pAokAC2pZWg
https://youtu.be/pST13gSh4fQ
>He said that since the Soviet Union didn't abolish wage labor
They did. Labor power was not a commodity in the USSR.
>It was merely social democracy and not real communism/socialism.
<my perfect idea of socialism has never been tried

>>405686
/thread

>>405670
>booklet meme flag

>>405686

finbol is biased. hes a tankie which probably means hes revising history to push his own agenda.

>They did. Labor power was not a commodity in the USSR.

but they still used money to pay people

><my perfect idea of socialism has never been tried

so youre admitting it wasn't real socialism and that stalin ruined the entire project?

marx is a master dialecter. he would never adopt such a rigid view of anything. is state is necessary until it's not.

>>405670
>It was merely social democracy
cringe and revisionist-pilled

>>405735
>but they still used money to pay people
NTA but the soviet ruble wasn't completely fungible. therefore it was not money, like most labour voucher schemes

Marx wasn't a liberal idealist baby, so he correctly observed that sometimes the state is a good thing and sometimes it's a bad thing and you can't make an absolutist judgment about it

lol

>>405937
as always it depends on historical necessity if you can't prove the soviet state was not necessary at the time and under their conditions then you can't use the muh state as an argument

>>405735
>finbol is biased. hes a tankie which probably means hes revising history to push his own agenda.
So is Cuck Philosophy. He cerrypicks quotes by Marx to ascribe to him some anarchist ideology which Marx clearly did not adhere to.
>but they still used money to pay people
That's not what "wage labor" means. Obviously there must be some sort of remuneration for labor, whether it be labor vouchers or money.
>so youre admitting it wasn't real socialism and that stalin ruined the entire project?
I'm admitting jackshit.

>>406058
>So is Cuck Philosophy. He cerrypicks quotes by Marx to ascribe to him some anarchist ideology which Marx clearly did not adhere to.

Except it's clear that actually marx wanted to dissolve the state. His entire ideology is based around getting rid of the state. a "classless, *stateless*, moneyless society".Stalin dod not accomplish this at all. Instead he went the opposite political direction and did the holodomor and great purge both of which are statist. Stalin in a materialist perspective is basically a crypto-fascist or even a protonazbol.

> That's not what "wage labor" means. Obviously there must be some sort of remuneration for labor, whether it be labor vouchers or money.

The soviet union used rubles which are money actually meaning the economy wasn't based on use.


>I'm admitting jackshit.

You're admitting Stalin was a failure and Russian socialism was a joke compared to the other, truer movements of socialist society.

I am once again asking OP to read "On Authority" by Engels

>>406288
>Except it's clear that actually marx wanted to dissolve the state. His entire ideology is based around getting rid of the state. a "classless, *stateless*, moneyless society"
literally every communist of every stripe, MLs included, want this. it's just that dumbass idealists like yourself think that it's possible to just wave a magic wand and all reactionary threats to any socialist project will be gone. the state is an instrument of class rule, and like it or not, the ML approach has historically proven much more resilient to attacks. even Rojava, which many anarchists tout as a good example, has had to resort to things like conscription to defend itself
>holodomor
even assuming the entire ordeal was purposeful on the part of the CPSU, of which there is little evidence, there's literally nothing wrong with classicide
>great purge
arguably one of stalin's great mistakes
>Stalin in a materialist perspective is basically a crypto-fascist
pretty strange of a fascist to see to the destruction of the Wehrmacht and the end of the Holocaust
>The soviet union used rubles which are money
no they weren't. money is fungible, the soviet ruble was not.

how was ruble not fungible?

>>406940
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_ruble#Economic_role
inb4 >wikipedia

>>406949
tank you

>>405937
Isn't the internet great. It allows tankie shitheads like yourself to say shit that would, in real life get your head cracked open. Hopefully you'll suffer the same fate fucking cunt.

Please turn to the loaded gun in your drawer, put it in your mouth, and pull the trigger, blowing your brains out. You'll be doing the whole world a favor. Shitbag.
I would love to smash your face in until it no longer resembled anything human, faggot.

Die painfully okay? Preferably by getting crushed to death in a garbage compactor, by getting your face cut to ribbons with a pocketknife, your head cracked open with a baseball bat, your stomach sliced open and your entrails spilled out, and your eyeballs ripped out of their sockets. Fucking bitch

I would love to kick you hard in the face, breaking it. Then I'd cut your stomach open with a chainsaw, exposing your intestines. Then I'd cut your windpipe in two with a box cutter. Hopefully you'll get what's coming to you.
Fucking bitch I really hope that you get curb-stomped. It'd be hilarious to see you begging for help, and then someone stomps on the back of your head, leaving you to die in horrible, agonizing pain.

Shut the fuck up, before you get your face bashed in and cut to ribbons, and your throat slit. You're dead if I ever meet you in real life, fucker. I'll fucking kill you.
I would love to fucking send your fucking useless ass to the hospital in intensive care, fighting for your worthless life.

I wish you a truly painful, bloody, gory, and agonizing death, cunt.

>>406963
Don't cut yourself with that edge.

>>406963
Is this a copypasta or are you actually an idiot?

>>406963
I really want you to imagine saying your post in real life to someone and how that would work out lmao.

>>406967
>Is this a copypasta
yes
https://www.reddit.com/r/copypasta/comments/2ryjze/remove_yourself_from_the_gene_pool/
> or are you actually an idiot?
still doesn't rule out idiocy

>>406939
>I am once again asking OP to read "On Authority" by Engels
You mean the so called "marxist text" that has been refuted by mostly every anarchist under the sun?

Christ, I'm no anarchist, but do yourself a favour and read

https://anarchistrevolt.com/critiques/engels/on_authority_a_response_to_friedrich_engels.html

https://raddle.me/f/Anarchism/129694/a-quick-list-of-anarchist-responses-to-on-authority-by

>>406981
>Libertarian Socialist Rants
>Punkerslut
>and lastly, a refutation in meme form
I hope you are not serious with those "rebuttals". "Authoritarianism" was not a term that already existed in the 19th century, it's rise within the discourse is connected to the rise of liberal theories of an "open society" (Karl Popper) and "totalitarianism" (Hannah Arendt) in which anarchists dabbled a lot after World War II to rationalize them being terminally outcompeted by Leninism everywhere in the world. Engels points out correctly that "authority" as a category is a non-sequitur because for those on the receiving end of authority, the form of which it takes does not matter. It doesn't matter for a capitalist or a landlord whether they are expropriated by the NKVD or a democratically confederated anarchist militia, it would still be one class authoritatively imposing its will on another. There is no way you can argue that the manifestation of political power could ever exist without authority.

There is also a good critique of the category of totalitarianism by Losurdo, which is of course not the same as "authoritarianism" but since those two terms are usually used interchangeably, it feels relevant:

https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-dfBD-isycOcvHvqS/Domenico%20Losurdo%20--%20Towards%20a%20Critique%20of%20the%20Category%20of%20Totalitarianism_djvu.txt

>>406981
I am well aware of anarchist responses to Engels, but something tells me OP has not read either of these. one large stumbling block is that Marxists and anarchists don't agree on what the state even is. so fruitful discussion will be hard to come by. this isn't to say that anarchists can't have useful critiques, for example the tendency of bureaucracy to breed corruption
also, from AFAQ:
>anarchists, as we indicated in section B.1, do not oppose all forms of authority
but also that post cites ziq, who I know holds the opposite view. so not even among anarchists is there agreement what exactly it is they oppose. thus a fun way to troll anarchists is to ask them whether they support "justified hierarchies" or not
I will also point out here that Bakunin is fine with deferring to experts ("authorities"), which is very much a key point in Lenin's organizational tactic

>>407016

A conpletely tangential note: There is an irony with bureaucracy insofar as handling its potential corruption:

That is to say one has to have it be slightly large in terms of personnel than strictly necessary, and in so doing one has decent reserve pool of people with which the corrupt elements can be replaced in a pinch.

>>406999
Based Losurdo trips.

>>407178
this, and there is also the tendency for only the lower levels to get axed whenever the bureaucracy needs to shrink. I see this at uni for example. so it's not without its problems