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File: 1627238180815.jpg ( 223.69 KB , 919x1191 , makhno.jpg )

 No.401287[Last 50 Posts]

Nestor Makhno died on this day (July 25th) 87 years ago. Say something nice about him.
>>

 No.401293

He's the best pirate I've ever seen.
>>

 No.401298

he existed
>>

 No.401300

He ran a completely centralized state under his supervision.
>>

 No.401301

Vandal
>>

 No.401304

He was good for a bandit.
>>

 No.401305

File: 1627238622220.png ( 1.69 MB , 2000x1333 , makhnovia.png )

For those who don't know I'll just copy/paste the wiki summary.

>Makhno was the commander of the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine, commonly referred to as the Makhnovshchina (loosely translated as "Makhno movement"). The Makhnovshchina was a predominantly peasant phenomenon that grew into a mass social movement. It was initially centered around Makhno's hometown Huliaipole but over the course of the Russian Civil War came to exert a strong influence over large areas of southern Ukraine. Makhno and the movement's leadership were anarcho-communists and attempted to guide the movement along these ideological lines. Makhno was aggressively opposed to all factions that sought to impose their authority over southern Ukraine, battling in succession the forces of the Ukrainian National Republic, the Central Powers of Germany and Austro-Hungary, the Hetmanate state, the White Army, the Bolshevik Red Army, and other smaller forces led by various Ukrainian atamans.

>Makhno and his supporters attempted to reorganize social and economic life along anarchist lines, including the establishment of communes on former landed estates, the requisition and egalitarian redistribution of land to the peasants, and the organization of free elections to local soviets (councils) and regional congresses.

>Although Makhno considered the Bolsheviks a threat to the development of an anarchist Free Territory within Ukraine, he entered into formal military alliances twice with the Red Army to defeat the White Army. In the aftermath of the White Army's defeat in Crimea in November 1920, the Bolsheviks initiated a military campaign against Makhno. After an extended period of open resistance against the Red Army, Makhno fled across the Romanian border in August 1921. In exile, Makhno settled in Paris with his wife Halyna and daughter Yelena. During this period, Makhno wrote numerous memoirs and articles for radical newspapers. Makhno also played an important role in the development of platformism and the debates around the 1926 Organizational Platform of the General Union of Anarchists
>>

 No.401307

He killed some whites.
>>

 No.401309

>>401293
He was such a hardcore pirate that he started to randomly distribute conquered banks' stored money to random people and then printed his own banknote with "forfeit this" written on it, leading to local inflation, meaning that actual workers got fucked due to Makhno not passing (Marxist) Econ101.

Very based, indeed!!!
>>

 No.401311

>>401307
… And reds…
>>

 No.401314

first time ive ever seen him in a suit lol
>>

 No.401322

I like how in every pic I see of him he looks like a completely different person
>>

 No.401324

>pic
It is actually debated to this day whether his scar was caused by his openly nazi gf (inflicting the wound with a knife) or the Romanian border guard shooting at him.
>>

 No.401331

File: 1627239222915.png ( 138.58 KB , 1200x1200 , .png )

>>401309
indeed!!!
>>

 No.401332

>>401322
>>401324
>"According to N.I. Makhno himself, it is known that on August 22, 1921, he received a bullet wound to his right cheek. Here is what the historian D. Arkhireysky writes about this: "The bullet entered him below the nape of the neck and came out through his right cheek, apparently not touching the skull bones. However, for the rest of his life, Makhno's right cheek was adorned with a scar as if from a saber blow. "
>And here is the information provided by the authors of the already mentioned book "Nestor and Galina" (allegedly from the memoirs of G. Kuzmenko in 1973):
"On August 22, the bullet struck the back of the head on the right side and went straight into the right cheek. Now he was lying in a wheelbarrow, was weak, lost a lot of blood. The scar from this last wound cut almost the entire right cheek. Then they didn't even make any inventions, they even wrote that I was trying to cut his throat with a razor. "

Neither of these versions are confirmed though.
>>

 No.401334

https://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/2v6xpk
> The delegation then returned to Moscow and called in on some anarchist workers. In one shack a steelworker with a huge family showed them a clipping from Pravda with a snapshot of Durruti and another clipping with a photograph of Makhno. “Makhno was one of the greatest revolutionaries and now they would have us believe that he was a bandit. Watch out, now that this one [Durruti] is dead, that they do not besmirch his memory.”
Rip to a real one
>>

 No.401340

File: 1627239329864-0.jpg ( 74.49 KB , 776x513 , 1st Revolutionary Army of ….jpg )

File: 1627239329864-1.jpg ( 61.09 KB , 732x445 , 1st Revolutionary Army of ….jpg )

>>401309
>then printed his own banknote with "forfeit this" written on it,
Lmao what a retard
>>

 No.401345

Just dropping this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_T7bD4pAlE
>>

 No.401368

He was a based retard. More of an agrarian socialist than an anarchist, tbqh, but he demonstrated why the peasant/proletarian alliance would be fragile and shaky.
>>

 No.401410

>>401311
OP says to say something nice dumbass
>>

 No.401428

Literally, who?
>>

 No.401430

>>401428

>>401305
>>

 No.401436

He was very good at branding. 100 years later, anarchists still think he was running some kind of libertarian utopia when he was literally just a bandit king with absolute authority over the territory he violently conquered with his marauding band of thugs.
>>

 No.401444

>>401436
Oh, another branding win for the man: Somehow the narrative has firmly become "the Bolsheviks oppressed the poor brave anarchists in the Free Territory because of that mean, evil Trotsky" when Makhno's gang was regularly raiding Soviet trains and sabotaging their supply lines.
>>

 No.401446

The nicest thing I can say about him was that his death was a cause for celebration. Fuck bandits, fuck fascists, fuck the enemies of socialism. Stand with the bandit and you will meet the same fate
>>

 No.401448

Hoes still mad i see ,nice
>>

 No.401449

>>401448
You should at least worship Catalonia instead. Say what you want about it, but it was actually a legitimate workers' government. The Free Territory was literally just gangland.
>>

 No.401450

>>401449
Don't project your parareligious bootlicking on me anon
>>

 No.401453

>Another time the same official gave me his version of the Anarchist problem. "We had Bill Shatov as Chief of Police in Petrograd. He was formerly an Anarchist but had come over to work with us. He had quarreled with the Anarchists and he claimed that a lot of loafers and thieves had joined their organizations just to have an excuse not to do any work.

>"Some time later there were a lot of robberies in Petrograd. One night Bill Shatov arrested every so-called Anarchist in town. He held them two weeks without trial. In those two weeks not a single robbery took place in Petrograd! "When the trial came up, Bill had a novel way of trying cases. He put each man through a sort of Anarchist's catechism. All those who knew their litany he released-the others he held.

>"Anarchists are the most difficult of all groups during a revolution. They not only lack balance and refuse to co-operate but they are really dangerous. There is hardly a Soviet official whose life has not been· threatened by Anarchists. Twice, you know, they nearly finished Lenin.
>>

 No.401454

>>401450
Licking the boot of one guy instead of a bunch of guys is still bootlicking, friend. Makhno ran his territory like a monarch, you should really read about it.
>>

 No.401458

>>401453
>When the trial came up, Bill had a novel way of trying cases. He put each man through a sort of Anarchist's catechism. All those who knew their litany he released-the others he held.
Holy shit that's based lmao
>>

 No.401459

>>401453
And yet furry pedos on the mod team count their ilk as part of the left. Funny that
>>

 No.401480

Well since another anarchist has been roundly embarrassed, it seems like as good of a time as any to turn this into an anarchist hate thread

My favorite part about anarchists is how their movement is universally composed of rejects from other political groups. Even fascists find them too degenerate.
>>

 No.401492

He had a nice hat :3
>>

 No.401502

wow! much utopia, so stateless.

>When they occupied towns, the Makhnovists would declare null and void all laws and state structures. In the midst of a civil war, they emptied all the prisons and jails. Then they would hand out all the money and food until it was gone.52 They destroyed the existing economic and political structures and then denied responsibility for the consequences. There was no thought of rationing the resources because there was no consideration of problems of production beyond small-scale family agriculture.

>When local railway and telegraph workers who had not been paid for months asked for help, Makhno told them, “We are not like the Bolsheviks to feed you, we don’t need the railways; if you need money, take the bread from those who need your railways and telegraphs.”53 In reality, the Makhnovists did need the railways. But Makhno declared his army exempt from rail charges. In the context of civil war and mass famine, his was less a call for workers’ power and more a prescription for starvation.54

>Makhno issued a currency that carried the text: “feel free to forge this.” He also declared valid all currencies, including those of defunct governments. While this may just seem like Abbie Hoffman-style antics, the ensuing mass inflation was devastating for workers. Unlike the peasants who grew their own food, the workers were dependent on a wage to eat and desperately needed price controls.55 But they could not look to Makhno for help, who later told the workers of Briansk, “Because the workers do not want to support Makhno’s movement and demand pay for the repairs of the armored car, I will take this armored car for free and pay nothing.”56'

>But left in control of territory that they wanted to secure, the Makhnovists ended up forming what most would call a state. The Makhnovists set monetary policy.62 They regulated the press.63 They redistributed land according to specific laws they passed. They organized regional legislative conferences. 64 They controlled armed detachments to enforce their policies.65 To combat epidemics, they promulgated mandatory standards of cleanliness for the public health.66 Except for the Makhnovists, parties were banned from organizing for election to regional bodies. They banned authority with which they disagreed to “prevent those hostile to our political ideas from establishing themselves.”67 They delegated broad authority to a “Regional Military-Revolutionary Council of Peasants, Workers and Insurgents.” The Makhnovists used their military authority to suppress rival political ideas and organizations.68 The anarchist historian Paul Avrich notes, “the Military-Revolutionary Council, acting in conjunction with the Regional Congresses and the local soviets, in effect formed a loose-knit government in the territory surrounding Guliai-Pole.”69

>In his army, Makhno claimed that units had the right to elect their commanders. However, he retained veto power over any decisions.71 He increasingly relied on a close group of friends for his senior command.72 As Darch notes, “Although some of Makhno’s aides attempted to introduce more conventional structures into the army, [Makhno]’s control remained absolute, arbitrary and impulsive.”73 One regiment found it necessary to pass a resolution that “all orders must be obeyed provided that the commanding officer was sober at the time of giving it.”74 As the war went on, his forces moved from voting on their orders to carrying out executions ordered by Makhno to enforce discipline.75

and it just goes on like this for a while.
Source (with 114 reliable citations): http://www.isreview.org/issues/53/makhno.shtml
>>

 No.401519

>>401444
Q: How do you make Stalinists defend an anarchist?
A: Tell them he was a victim of Trotskyist brutality
>>

 No.401535

>>401519
kek, fortunately I don't see a lot of Stalinists defending Makhno. I think this is one of the few areas where we are in complete agreement
>>

 No.401538

Grifter
>>

 No.401539

>>401519
Nah, Trotsky was based as hell for ending that bandit state, probably the only based thing he ever did. Trotsky may have been a bitter loser and fascist collaborator but he was right on the money with anarchists
>>

 No.401670

he was hot af and a true rebel
no homo
>>

 No.401847

>>401309
>randomly distribute conquered banks' stored money to random people and then printed his own banknote with "forfeit this" written on it,
What in the cringe is this
>>

 No.401922

>>401847
It turns out mindless anarchist platitudes like "dude no one should have to work" and "bro we should just barter instead of using money" are actually fucking stupid when you try to implement them.
>>

 No.401950

>>401519
Na trotsky bringing the hammer to the Makhnovites is probably the most based thing he did besides give an ice pick its most exciting swing in history
>>

 No.402081

File: 1627259941325.mp4 ( 1.38 MB , 1280x592 , trotsky and anarchist.mp4 )

>>401287
>Nestor Makhno died on this day (July 25th) 87 years ago. Say something nice about him.
No
>>

 No.402088

File: 1627260221752.png ( 88.79 KB , 805x851 , Silk Wojak.png )

>>401436
>violently conquered.
As opposed to peaceful conquest? lmao
>>

 No.402089

Sure am loving the non-sectarianism here
>>

 No.402100

>>402089
Amazing how Stalinoids will call Trotsky based just to shit on le anarkiddies while calling him a anglovite jew traitor to socialism who destroyed the USSR in other contexts
>>

 No.402104

>>402100
even a broken clock is right twice a day.
>>

 No.402106

إنا لله و إنا إليه راجعون
>>

 No.402112

>>402104
So wouldn't that mean anarchists are right about things?
>>

 No.402118

>>402088
"Conquest" does not necessarily entail violence dipshit. Subjugation and coercion can happen without overt violence
>>

 No.402126

>>402089
Fine, some actual nice things about Makhno:
>Indisputably a brilliant and dynamic tactician
>An extremely dedicated and resilient revolutionary
>Fearless
>Tenacious
>Principled (though not as principled as I think he imagined himself to be)
>Fairly intellectual for his background
>>

 No.402129

Do anyof you guys have makhno resources like pdfs and books or links about him so I (or we) can read?
>>

 No.402157

>>401368
So kinda like pol pot?
>>

 No.402161

>>401287
>Say something nice about him.
He died.
>>

 No.402237

They had cool flags
>>

 No.402308

>>401287
No
>>

 No.402319

>>402129
Here's some (a lot of it does debunk or at least recontextualises some of the critiques on makhno as well as show his shortcomings)

http://nestormakhno.info/english/makfaq.html

https://libcom.org/library/nestor-makhno-anarchys-cossack-alexandre-skirda
>>

 No.404699

File: 1627382474432.png ( 806.88 KB , 784x1100 , 955.png )

>>401307
>He killed some whites.
>NOOOOOO THAT'S WHITE GENOCIDINO!!!1
>>

 No.404713

great guy. Killed a lot of reactionaries. Liberated huge amounts of territory for the peasant class. Attempted to establish socialism. Was part of a movement of working class people to further their class interests, and was therefore based.
>b-b-but he was an evil dictator who ruled the free territory with an iron fist!
don't care, he was a revolutionary, and anything violent he did against the monarchists and the bourgeoisie is justified.

It's a shame that the black and red army ended up fighting each other instead of working out a mutually beneficial deal. The soviet union could have easily coexisted with an anarchist territory on its border. It would be a helpful bulwark against capitalist states.
>>

 No.404714

A true communist unlike Lenin.
>>

 No.404718

gay
>>

 No.404728

>>404714
anarkiddie
>>

 No.404767

>>401847
the part where you forget to take into account the material reality of your actions and their consequences, and do random idealist shit that have dire consequences on the civilian population because you have no solid theory and no understanding of economy
>>

 No.404771

He was a dedicated revolutionary, a charismatic leader, and he BTFO the whites hard.
>>

 No.404783

Warlordism with anarchist characteristics
>>

 No.404799

>>401293
Not really that great in all honesty, when you consider prizes carribean pirates were probably luckier than some guy in backwater Ukraine who only lasted a few years
>>

 No.404804

>>401305
>Although Makhno considered the Bolsheviks a threat to the development of an anarchist Free Territory within Ukraine, he entered into formal military alliances twice with the Red Army to defeat the White Army.
Leftist unity, you love to see it
>>

 No.404827

File: 1627392268459.png ( 19.13 KB , 444x444 , stirner chad.png )

>>401309
>>401453
>>401502
All of this sounds based as fuck
>>

 No.404832

>>401502
>the first three paragraphs
gee I wonder how the Red Army managed to beat these guys
>the Makhnovists ended up forming what most would call a state
kek
>>

 No.404882

>>401502
>They regulated the press.
>Except for the Makhnovists, parties were banned from organizing for election to regional bodies. They banned authority with which they disagreed to “prevent those hostile to our political ideas from establishing themselves.”
>The Makhnovists used their military authority to suppress rival political ideas and organizations.
>he retained veto power over any decisions
>[Makhno]’s control remained absolute, arbitrary and impulsive
>executions ordered by Makhno to enforce discipline.
Literally just a tyrannical warlord. How the fuck can you claim to be all about opposing authority and "unjustified hierarchy" and yet think this is a good example? Are anarchists just braindead or what? I genuinely don't get it.
>>

 No.404891

>>402100
>Amazing how Stalinoids will call Trotsky based just to shit on le anarkiddies
I don't care for Trotsky generally but putting these anarcho-bandits in their place was the best thing he ever did. Has nothing to do with "owning le anarkiddies" or whatever.
>>

 No.404916

NUMPANG BUMP YAA…
>>

 No.404928

File: 1627395577792.png ( 513.8 KB , 886x1080 , soy32.png )

>>402118
>peaceful conquest
conquest entails a military invasion and capture pf a foreign territory, not coercing territories into vassalage without violence
>>

 No.404952

File: 1627397214816-0.jpg ( 127.14 KB , 480x963 , good-guy-makhno-and-scumba….jpg )

File: 1627397214816-1.jpg ( 17.11 KB , 384x384 , tachanka man.jpg )

File: 1627397214816-2.gif ( 142.55 KB , 710x426 , death.gif )

He was a badass!
>>

 No.405127

>>401300
that is very kind of you to say
>>

 No.405129

He had a badass scar and a sense of style. The anarchism's a miss for me
>>

 No.405435

>>404827
Every based thing they did was something the Bolsheviks did, except much better. And the Bolsheviks did far fewer cringe things.
>>404832
>gee I wonder how the Red Army managed to beat these guys
Ironically enough, the sheer fanaticism of Makhno and his men is what kept the Free Territory alive far longer than it had any right to be. I admire that about them, but I wish it had been applied to something that wasn't retarded.
>>404882
It doesn't help that the most definitive biographies about the man (and, by extension, the Free Territory) were written by his close friends and associates. You can see that in the Wikipedia article; almost all of the sources are based off friendly, pro-Makhno accounts, so I can see how an anarchist could come away reading that article thinking the Free Territory was some kind of utopia.

Catalonia suffers from the same problem. Anarchists can project their own utopian aspirations onto it because most of the firsthand accounts were by people like Orwell who basically only focused on the positives and didn't address any of the negatives.
>>

 No.405436

>>404928
Yes, apparently I was mistaken on the definition of conquest. I will take the L and spare myself any further humiliation.
>>

 No.405521

File: 1627419456472.jpg ( 27.74 KB , 700x467 , trump_smug-100701570-large.jpg )

Bye bye honey, your tachanka not so hot anymore! Your free territory is burning! Its burning like trash! You know, I have more and more bolsheviks comming to me and you know what they say? They say "Donnie, allying with Makhno was a big mistake". Thats right folks, we are hearing it more and more, platformism doesn't work! My god, even that washed up psycho Leon Trotsky knows you're bad, you're bad for America!
>>

 No.405527

>>401450
Yes, just be actually religious, learn the light of God
>>

 No.405529

File: 1627419912880.jpg ( 295.39 KB , 785x731 , zoy.jpg )

>>405527
>Yes, just be actually religious, learn the light of God
>>

 No.405531

>>405436
Can you please remove the sanctions on Venezuela and Cuba?
>>

 No.405538

>>405531
Please leave /b/ subjects in /b/
>>

 No.405539

>>401436
>>401444
>Trotsky simp
>Bitching about violence and authoritarianism
lmao
>>

 No.405542

>>405539
My problem with Makhno is not that he was violent or an authoritarian, it's that he tried to sell people on the lie that he was some kind of libertarian when he was anything but.
>>

 No.405551

>>402126
I wouldnt put principled there because his principles were, as you stated earlier, "random anarchists platitudes of 'bro no one should have to work' and 'we should use barter instead of money."
>>

 No.405554

>>405551
lmao, I mean, I didn't say they were *good* principles
>>

 No.405579

>>405539
The sky isnt blue either since a trotskyist said it huh?
>>

 No.405583

>Nestor Makhno died on this day (July 25th) 87 years ago. Say something nice about him.
He would have spat on most North American and European lifestylist Anarcho-liberals.
>>

 No.405609

>>401502
this reads like my own dealings with some anarchists who will decry "authority" except when it is their own, often informal authority. and because it is informal it cannot be challenged
>>

 No.405613

>>405579
It's just that everything Trotsky (and Trotskyists) accuse others (anarchists, Stalinists, etc.) of doing, Trotsky did and worse. Trotsky probably would have been an even more brutal tyrant than Stalin had he taken power.

>>405609
>often informal authority. and because it is informal it cannot be challenged
Anarchists are aware of this issue. They call "the tyranny of structurelessness
>>

 No.405630

>>401502
>When local railway and telegraph workers who had not been paid for months asked for help, Makhno told them, “We are not like the Bolsheviks to feed you, we don’t need the railways; if you need money, take the bread from those who need your railways and telegraphs.”
lol, just lol
>>

 No.405713

>>404728
You will never be a communist.
>>

 No.405725

This entire thread is proof of the anti-anarchist bias this board has.
>>

 No.405728

>>405725
Yes, and it’s not good. But what are you going to do about it?
>>

 No.405732

>>405728
Ask the jannies to actually enforce the no sectarianism rule for once.
>>

 No.405758

They better do it
>>

 No.405943

>>405725
Oh my god stop whining, this is an imageboard, not your personal hugbox. There's an entire thread about how the Moscow Trials were based and an evil fascist Trotskite cabal was trying to destroy the USSR and you don't see me bitching about it
>>

 No.406009

>>402106
lmfao
>>

 No.406012

>>402112
Alot of Anarchists are communists they just think it can be done much much sooner than marxists, so in the end goal they are right usually
>>

 No.406018

>>405725
The bias of reality.
>>

 No.406042

>>401287
way better than modern anarkiddies
>>

 No.406054

>>401309
makhno had very little to do with how the free territory was run, and the local councils of the communes held most of the power. Only some of the communes used currency, and only fewer had the problem that you stated.
>>401444
The Bolsheviks and the anarchists weren’t allied for the entirety of the war. You realize this, right? The bolsheviks betrayed the anarchists on two occasions, leading to their alliances ending.
>>

 No.406057

>>401502
>irrelevant trot paper
No thanks
>>

 No.406062

>>405725
>they hated him, for he spoke the truth
>>

 No.406075

>>406054
>The Bolsheviks and the anarchists weren’t allied for the entirety of the war. You realize this, right? The bolsheviks betrayed the anarchists on two occasions, leading to their alliances ending.
Wow, it's almost like the "irrelevant trot paper" (which based a solid 1/2 of its analysis off PRO-Makhno primary accounts) actually goes into detail about why these two occasions happened and you're making a fool out of yourself
>>

 No.406090

>>406075
So you agree that the bolsheviks betrayed the black army multiple times, ending their alliance, and thereby justifying the black army seizing supplies from the bolsheviks to survive?
>>

 No.406103

>>406090
No, because 1. Your timeline is not correct (Makhno's men stole from the Bolsheviks more or less continuously throughout their entire existence) and 2. Neither one of the incidents involved the Bolsheviks betraying Makhno. The first was actually quite the opposite (Makhno attempted an uprising against the soviets after he abandoned his post in the middle of a fucking civil war) and the second was the Bolsheviks wisely deciding that someone who has proven to be an unreliable, dangerous, and capricious man needed to be dealt with before he destroyed the whole revolution.
>>

 No.406106

>>406103
forgot flag
>>

 No.406114

>>406103
Can you give me sources for anything you said there?
>>

 No.406155

>>406114
I gave you a fucking source you illiterate cocksucker, you called it an "irrelevant Trot paper".
Here's the order Trotsky gave during the first "betrayal" of the anarchists. As you can see, he makes explicit references to a planned congress to rise up against the Red Army and widespread desertion among Makhno's ranks. Call it unreliable if you want, but given that Makhno's men were literally holding back the White Army at the time of this order, it would have been ludicrous to make this move if the claims weren't true.
>>

 No.406157

>>406155
Forgot the link: http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/trotsky/ord107.htm
>>

 No.406190

>>406155
Is there a source for this congress ever took place? And if it did, who cares? Why does the actions of a few people who have no control outside of being generals warrant betraying your ally?
>>

 No.406837

>>405613
>Anarchists are aware of this issue. They call "the tyranny of structurelessness
and what are the proposed solutions to this? because what I see is that many anarchists end up reinventing the state from first principles. in so doing I feel they miss a lot of ideas, for example sortition, aimed at dealing with inherent problems in states
>>

 No.406866

>>406837
>what are the proposed solutions to this?
Having formal rules and procedures rather than just figuring out as you go along
>>

 No.406881

>>401287
How much power did Makhno personally have in the Free Territory?
>>

 No.406919

>>406866
you mean like an actual, formal bureaucracy? like that one found in say, a state? a bureaucracy where everyone knows the rules, and where misbehavior can be challenged with reference to said rules?
>>

 No.407012

>>406881
Little to none. Even though Makhno did face arduous tasks where at times he was tempted, he surprisingly enough showed restraint, not to mention that even if he wanted to, the structure of the free territory prevented him from ruling it in a thoroughly centralised manner.

""This council embraced the whole free region. It was supposed to carry out all the economic, political, social and military decisions made at the congress. It was thus, in a certain sense, the supreme executive of the whole movement. But it was not at all an authoritarian organ. Only strictly executive functions were assigned to it. It confined itself to carrying out the instructions and decisions of the congress. At any moment, it could be dissolved by the congress and cease to exist." [Op. Cit., p. 577]"

http://nestormakhno.info/english/makfaq/h_6_5.htm

As far as control went, the man was one of the leaders of the black army, not some sort of warlord who ruled over the ukraine. Considering the black army would shoot anyone who abused their power over the people (from them executing pogromists, rapists) and were answerable to the people, Makhno himself had little control over the free territory itself.

I would also recommend reading this to.
https://libcom.org/files/NestorMakhnoAnarchysCossack.pdf
>>

 No.407014

>>406919
>if you form an organisation you create a state, anarkiddies BTFO
Anarchists, unless we're talking posties, don't oppose the idea of delegation. If you have the time, watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYiK55UxQrA&t=761s
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 No.407023

>>406881
enough to have a constant rape train going
<More disturbing was Makhno’s treatment of women. According to Voline, Makhno and his commanders would hold drunken parties that turned into “orgies in which certain women were forced to participate.”
https://www.isreview.org/issues/53/makhno.shtml
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 No.407034

File: 1627479036974.png ( 87.48 KB , 348x255 , fat makhno.png )

>>

 No.407035

>>407034
That boy t h i c k
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 No.407039

How'd he get that scar?
>>

 No.407044

>>407023
Voline had a falling out with Makhno and used that to slander him.

Voline's allegations against Makhno in regards to sexual violations of women have been disputed that the evidence was unsubstantiated and due to eyewitness accounts of the punishment meted out to rapists by the Makhnovists, and were originally made by Voline in his book The Unknown Revolution which was first published in 1947, long after Makhno's death and following a bitter falling-out between Makhno and Voline. Voline and Makhno fell out due to Kuzmenko and Voline having an affair, which is later corroborated by Ida Mett after Makhno had died in Paris.
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 No.407045

>>407039
Some argue he got it from his wife, others say he got it via bullet wound. As mentioned here >>401332
>>

 No.407054

>>407014
>Anarchists, unless we're talking posties, don't oppose the idea of delegation
then wtf is the problem? do anarchists think that ML states literally decide everything centrally? that there is no delegation? I mean I'm quite critical of the lack of democracy in ML parties, which seems to breed corruption as I have already noted. term limits and sortition are ways of dealing with that. but it's not like anarchist orgs aren't immune to that shit either. arguably they're more vulnerable to it, what with their tendency to be fine with things so long as they put the right label on them and the right clique is in charge. this I have seen first-hand

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYiK55UxQrA&t=761s
I'm on shitty phone internet at the moment, but I'll try to give it a watch when I'm back in civilization
>>

 No.407055

>>405732
most of the critics are legit though, even if theres the usual banter on top too
>>

 No.407058

>>401287
He killed some people I dislike
>>

 No.407063

File: 1627480783222.jpg ( 79.73 KB , 736x491 , 1623125934788.jpg )

>>407054
>then wtf is the problem?
Ask them. Personally it was because more or less the reasons you list in the comments that i stopped being an anarchist, mostly due to criticism of Marxism Leninism being either very specific to the soviet union or forgetting that the soviets (under stalin no less) did try to democratise itself.

>do anarchists think that ML states literally decide everything centrally? that there is no delegation? I mean I'm quite critical of the lack of democracy in ML parties, which seems to breed corruption as I have already noted. term limits and sortition are ways of dealing with that.
Again, should probably ask them. I very much doubt this is the case, but but you can't deny with increased power of the vanguard, and the neglect of popular democratic vote to have the soviet union maintain itself (with the gov choosing to dissolve it) was in part to its centralised governance.

>but it's not like anarchist orgs aren't immune to that shit either. arguably they're more vulnerable to it, what with their tendency to be fine with things so long as they put the right label on them and the right clique is in charge.

How? Even Kropotkin argued the reason he adopted a decentralised form of governance wasn't because he believed in the best in humanity- quite the opposite. He advocated for it in the sense to mitigate it.

>this I have seen first-hand.
Yeah and I've seen MLs actively purge dissent, consolidate power and act hyper secretarian all the while brushing aside legitimate criticism? See? I can call a tendency bad based on my own annecdotal experiences too.
>>

 No.407073

>>406090
lmao, no wonder theres an anti anarkiddo bias
'why is my generals being unreliable fucks in a war and my org not being able to enforce a coherent strategy and diplomacy caused the ally we're stealing from and plotting against to turn on us?'
get real. the bolcheviks prolly were not fond of them anyway and would have turned against them eventually, which is shitty from them, but they also had good reason for it.
>>

 No.407121

>>407063
>Again, should probably ask them. I very much doubt this is the case, but but you can't deny with increased power of the vanguard, and the neglect of popular democratic vote to have the soviet union maintain itself (with the gov choosing to dissolve it) was in part to its centralised governance.
see, this is an actually useful argument. I've read elsewhere that a big problem was that the peasantry was very poorly represented, with party membership mostly being drawn from middle management

>Yeah and I've seen MLs actively purge dissent, consolidate power and act hyper secretarian all the while brushing aside legitimate criticism? See? I can call a tendency bad based on my own annecdotal experiences too.
fair enough
>>

 No.407584

>>407012
>entire territory literally named after the dude
>"he actually didn't have any power over it"
press x to doubt
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 No.407590

>>407584
Damn, I didn’t know his name was Nestor Free Territory of Ukraine
>>

 No.407602

>>407590
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makhnovshchina
Dude, you're embarrassing yourself with your willful ignorance. The "Free Territory" is a posthumous title, given to it by anarchists, that literally none of the contemporary people involved ever called it.
>>

 No.407625

>>407602

The Free Territory wasn't called Makhnovshchina either.
>>

 No.407629

>>407625
No, but the Black Army was named after Makhno and people in that time would be much more likely to know what the fuck you were talking about if you called it Makhnovshchina instead of the Free Territory.
>>

 No.407633

>>404799

Oh I def. agree. It was a reference to a /leftypol/ meme video.
>>

 No.407641

I just find it very amusing that communists, when defending to the USSR, can reference literally hundreds of primary sources from neutral third parties observing the advantages of the system, while anarchists literally only cite Makhno's best friends and pamphlets written by Makhno's army when defending the dude.
Seriously, look at the references from this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Insurrectionary_Army_of_Ukraine

Literally every single one is written by people so biased that they shouldn't even be considered reliable sources.
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 No.407643

>>407629
Well ofc people would know that name better, since it was the name given by the bolcheviks, added by the fact Makhno was a semi-legendary figure during the civil war.
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 No.407649

>>407641
t. thinks grover furr is a neutral third party
>>

 No.407658

>>407641
Might have something to do with Makhno slaughtering anybody who said otherwise, unlike the Bolsheviks
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 No.407659

>>407641
Let put aside you thinking the marxists-leninists don't carefully chose their "neutral" sources sources, and the way to read it. Maybe it is the fact the USSR lasted for nearly a century, is one of the most controversial and studied field in contempornary history, whereas Anarchist Ukraine was like 3 years during a civil war, with a almost mythical status over it and complete silencing of direct sources during the Soviet time. The things written against Makhno are as biaised as his defenders.
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 No.407661

>>407649
Grover Furr is a little too harsh on the USSR tbh.
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 No.407668

>>407649
I'm not referencing Grover Furr. Did you know Kropotkin had positive views on the USSR shortly before he died?
>>407658
I can't confirm or deny this.
>>407659
I agree with you, which is why I think anarchists need to stop worshiping the territory, because the fact of the matter is we have no reliable idea of what it was actually like to live there. Makhno's claims that it was a stateless wonderland and the Bolshevik claims that it was a warlord hellhole are equally valid because there is no third party verification one way or the other. It's literally he said, she said.
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 No.407674

>>407629
Damn I didn’t know his name was Nestor Black Army
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 No.407679

File: 1627505582879.jpg ( 91.85 KB , 497x750 , kropotkin entente.jpg )

>>407668
Did you know Kropotkin had positive views on the German Empire shortly before he died? The bread book was pretty good, but after that it all went downhill fast.
>>

 No.407680

>>407649
Grover Furr is bullet proof though. Hes always clear where he is "hypothesising", he provides clear references that have always checked out and he states his persuasion (that hes a communist) but insists he tries his best to stay neutral

And regarding his references he ALWAYS provides an English translation on the same page of what hes discussing so you dont have to dig through some obscure archive to find out that the Ukrainian source used was obscure Ukrainian nazi collaborators who republished a translation of a Nazi newspaper.
Or some obscure journal in Polish that actually doesnt say what is claimed or ignores the previous passage which invalidates the implied claim etc.

Tactics Western 'historians' do literally all the time

Whenever anyone posts a " rebuttle" of Furr its usually that schizo post on /r/armchair historians or that trot page which makes zero fucking sense and ignores all the discoveries of the 80s onward
And i say that as someone who first read Furr actively thinking the dude was a complete crank

Its why theres no takedown of Furr
How hard would it be for a historian to do a take down of Furr like Taugar did of Anne Applebaum where he goes through her footnotes and just calls her a straight up liar again and again
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/169438
>>

 No.407699

>>407668
I believe the Bolsheviks in part because they’re historically trustworthy, but mostly because anarchists can easily be observed as barely functioning babies so it’s pretty easy to believe the Free Territory turned into bandit hell
>>

 No.407735

>>407054
>do anarchists think that ML states literally decide everything centrally?
No. And deciding things centrally isn't the problem. The problem is of accountability and responsiveness to the public. If the public can recall officials and reverse their decisions then the "authority" is with the people. The issue arises when there are things that are out of the people's control for one reason or another and cynical people or groups are able to use that to leverage more power for themselves. This can be a problem at a national or a local level, although the higher up the chain it goes the harder it is for the people to combat usually given the scale.

>>407063
>but you can't deny with increased power of the vanguard, and the neglect of popular democratic vote to have the soviet union maintain itself (with the gov choosing to dissolve it) was in part to its centralised governance.
Exactly this. The fall of the USSR was one of the greatest tragedies in world history and it wouldn't have happened if it had organized things in a more anarchic way. Shit's not black and white. The more power the people have the better it is, and if the USSR really wanted to live up to the "state withering away" they should have done the opposite of this and "de-centralized" or rather distributed more and more political power to the people. Of course, the reason they didn't do this isn't a moral or ideological one but a material one, since it's in the nature of a state to cling to power and try to accumulate it. There's also the factor of competition with the west, but I don't believe that empowering Soviet citizens would have weakened the USSR in that way, especially after decades of developing the political project. If there's a time where the "you need authoritarian power to not get destroyed" applies, it's going to be in the earlier and more perilous periods. The problem is that over time having a system where a minority of people have concentrated power it will attract (or produce) people who will exploit that power for their own gain. It's not guaranteed to be ruinous but the longer that situation persists the greater the chances of your project backsliding toward a system where a minority of people decide what happens based on material interests that are at odds with those of the majority, a de facto class system. State apparatuses exist to reinforce and reproduce class and if you keep them around that's exactly what they'll do.
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 No.408590

>>407735
>If the public can recall officials and reverse their decisions then the "authority" is with the people
based and democracy pilled. this is why I say anarchists have useful critiques
>>

 No.408708

>>401287
He literally was a bandit lord. Anarchists upholding him for any reason is extremely cringe

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