/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

There is, but left is so much divided
Like; problem is not shortening working-hours is good, i support that. Problem is we have faggots that like "NOOO, PROLETARİAT SHOULD WORK HARD. WORKING IS GOOOOD. NOOO, LAZINESS IS ANTI-LEFT.WE SHOULD FIGHT AGAINST DEGENERACY FOR SAVING SOCIALIST SOCIETY" and so on. With the a lot of other topics
You will see a lot of them here or other leftist-spaces.

such discussions usually take place inside actual organizations, there's little use of talking about organization if there's none

People "organize" all the time. Workers join unions, issue demands of their employers, go on strike, etc. This happens every day in every capitalist country.

The trouble is this grassroots "organizing" has never lead to any broader "class unity" or push for revolutionary socialism within the past ~75 years. Organized workers naturally limit themselves to their own sector/firm, and are gladly integrated into the existing framework of business unions and bourgeois political parties.

>There is almost 0 organizational discussion. There is no tactical discussion: what do now?
lol go outside and you'll see there's way too much of it.

>>393913
If you don't put your beliefs into action in some way or another you're just LARPing, and this isn't politics but an intellectual hobby.

>>393897
One of those positions is marxist. One is for glowuyghurs. You and I both know which is which so let's organize around that and ignore the wreckers.

>by printing posters and gluing them

Larp

>>393897
Litterally no one says this. Everyone wants less hours and better conditions.

People only say this in response to the anti-work neets

>>393897
Less free time is degradation, the free time is not necessary leisure time. The work is repetitive, no time to study, to analyze what you've done, etc, it is degradation.
I do not know if it is a good answer, but that is one of the goals: together think how to reply to common misconceptions, how to explain in simple words, to understand how they think. If you will have to talk to a stranger, you need to be prepared.

>>393906
How local organization will form if they do not know what to do? Do not we need to organize to tell them what can be done?

>>393908
Yes they organize for higher wage, better workplace, but could you name 1 factory with 4 hour workday? May be 6 hour workday?

May be this did not lead to class unity since they do not have free time? Their strategy was not to change thinking or life but only to get higher level of living. Shorter workday tactics is not just better level of living, but it gives something more than that.

>>393913
Here, locally, I do not think so.

>>393897
>Work-chads living rent free in the NEETs head
kek

>>393941
How new are you if you don't know the difference between work and wage labor?

What does organizing even mean? In concrete terms what activities count as organizing?

>Listen here cap pigs- we're not an organized movement, so you can't target us like you do right wing groups. In fact, we might not even exist, and those black-clad marauders could be anyone. You can't tell what their politics are porky.

Yeah that was a good move.

>>393887
Well, during OWS there was nothing but organizational discussion without any goals beyond that. It's also going to be specific to different parts of the world. The political situation in Europe is different than in USA, for instance.

>>393950
Hm, I'm not in a labor union, I do not have experience. How I think it could look like:
Short term goal -> plan <-> action <-> result. Goal is shorter workday. Organizing is everything that have to be done to produce the result.

At the moment, collect, structure info, how to convince the workers to act. Do they know they can work less? Write/talk more on that. Learn labor laws of your country. See what happen. With new info, adjust plan.
Something from this might be useful: https://libcom.org/organise

Someone with union work experience sure will be helpful.

If I have say just an hour of free time, can I be helpful? What should I do?

If I'm not satisfied with work, I should be able to quickly find that there is such thing as movement towards shorter workday.

>>393955
At the moment, as I see it, it is propaganda of the shorter workday with data collection. It should be within law.

>>393988
Labor laws differ from country to country, yes.

>>394025
>Labor laws differ from country to country, yes.
It's not that, you have to look at the wider structures. In the case of Europe you absolutely need international organizing above all else. Within countries themselves it also depends on if the country is in the core or periphery, you're going to be struggling against both internal and external obstacles and they're going to be different based on your country's place in the world. If you ignore that you're going to potentially be a useful idiot in the wider game.

join your local org you sperg

>>394075
My local org wants to read introductory vaguely marxist texts (but not marx) over zoom calls. I'll pass.

Hot take:

1. Society has no need for money anymore (we switched to fiat but that is something else, and has a different semantics).

2. A lot of the work that people do is completely useless and thus not socially necessary: useless goods are being produced and sold, yes but if the market doesn't use real money backed by labor time then the work done cannot be considered socially necessary labor time. A very small fraction of a first world workforce is busy doing things people need.

Society now is a hollow version of what marx described, like a movie prop.

Without money or work you can't make a traditional marxist analysis: organizing labor makes no sense. What are we left with? It's what you see: zombies going to work as an alternative to killing themselves (though they aren't living either so its the same), porky reptilians telling you everything is fine via AI curated spectacle, teen suicides, mental illness, zero genuine social interaction and bizzare manufactured culture.

I wish I could tell you how to organize under these conditions but hell is hot and I am tired.

Honestly, I don't think there won't be an incentive to organize until something catastrophic happens in the imperialist core. It doesn't matter which tendency you are, your ideas still cannot be practiced since social antagonisms have not reached a certain level.

>>393940
>May be this did not lead to class unity since they do not have free time?
Okay Jehu

Sort of unrelated, but consider the idea that many workers don't like formally "organizing" because they find informal ways to get what they want from their employers.
Reading a book about London commies trying to organize migrant factory labor, it became evident that many were resistant to being more militant because they actually had informal deals between their landlords and employers to be paid in cash, or have debts forgiven, or network to get better jobs.
There was a unionization drive in the 80's at a factory near where I live, it failed because the workers didn't want the informal "family" atmosphere between them and their employers to be formalized by a union contract.
And in my current job and pretty much every office job in the world, we all pretend we're "very busy" when in reality we spend at least half our time fucking around on the internet or otherwise not working.
People don't want to formally "demand a four hour workday" because a lot of them are actually living it, or otherwise working out informal deals with their bosses to make their lives a little less shit.

>>394216
All of this is true especially for white collar jobs. I've personally seen only one example where some office workers themselves wanted to form a union, but in that company the whole management was shockingly shitty, and even then it didn't succeed because some workers were treated better than the rest (nepotism, asskissing) and didn't want to lose that.

if you try to discuss organisation retards flip out, they literally think Xi is just going to bring socialism and you don't need to do anything because of that

>>394060
If capital is mobile (capital mobility), it will move away anyway. Since when capital moves to a cheap labor region, this shift uprising to this new region, so on, forever. As I understand by quickly reading: Silver, Forces of labor.
We only speed up this process for mobile capital. The most exploitative capital is likely already moved to developing regions, Poland, Romania, if EU. It is likely migrants work at this capital. Poland migrants in Germany. Ukrainians in Poland, so on. If capital moves from Germany to Poland, is not this a win for Poland workers who were working in Germany? They can return home, there will be more jobs at home.

OWS: from wikipedia page, hey demanded to reduce unemployment, lower inequality but shorter workday should solve both. I assume they did not know that working less is possible.


>>394092
The bullshit job "workers" know their job is bullshit.
> pointless, unnecessary, or pernicious that even the employee cannot justify its existence
May be they will like to do meaningful work, specially if it is less hours a day. The book author is pro UBI. I can't find publication at the moment, but shorter work day is better than UBI.

>>394117
How to recognize high antagonism? By the number of protests? There were protests. At DWS protest, may be they did not know they can demand a shorter workday.

>>394216
>Reading a book about London commies trying to organize migrant factory labor, it became evident that many were resistant to being more militant because they actually had informal deals between their landlords and employers to be paid in cash, or have debts forgiven, or network to get better jobs.
Not in London, but yes. I did study on Ukraine immigrants in EU, they upload videos to youtube. Some of them frequently change jobs, not happy, have nothing to loose.

>There was a unionization drive in the 80's at a factory near where I live, it failed because the workers didn't want the informal "family" atmosphere between them and their employers to be formalized by a union contract.
The boss-friend will never agree to reduce their working hours to 4, so the antagonism will increase.

>People don't want to formally "demand a four hour workday" because a lot of them are actually living it,
Then you will work 2 hours and 2 hours your will pretend you are working.
>or otherwise working out informal deals with their bosses to make their lives a little less shit.
Work 4 hours a day, no need to lick boss ass or ask for permission to work less.

>>394216
OK, thanks. For me it looks risk worthy, but I understand they do not want to loose the benefits in case of a failure.

The left should be concerned with achieving pragmatic results and practice realpolitik conditioned by criteria of realism and feasibility rather than ideals or theory.It should abandon idealism and hair splitting and favor what works and gets stuff done. The left needs concrete, well-defined goals rather than nebulous generic notions like “overturning capitalism” or “establishing socialism.” These are just vague empty phrases and without more structure they are mere pipe dreams. It shouldn’t matter what variant of dialectics is truer than this one or which obscure French theorist you subscribe to. Theory must not be untethered from praxis. Instead what we see is leftists indulging in idle theorizing and arcane debates that bear no relevance to current factual realities and whose technicalities and obscurantism alienates the masses unfamiliar with such rare and abstract scholarship. Many leftist adhere to boutique, niche fringe ideologies that have absolutely no currency or utility in the present reality. This isn’t to condone crude technocratic solutionism but a call to be more intentional about where intellectual capital is allocated and to avoid indulging too much in dissociated esoterica that only an exclusive educated minority of people understand or care about and which has no impact on the real world.

Also. Nothing can be accomplished if leftism squabbles with itself over petty and inconsequential ideological differences. This is a direct result of the inconsistent and fractured position it is in naturally inducing chaos. Attempts should be made to see past disagreements that are unimportant in the grand scheme of things and focus on the key points that each faction can agree on. The right wing is more unified because their aims and intents are clearer and simpler and they all hate the same things.

Finally, As some here will surely agree identity politics is detrimental to the leftist cause and promotes division, misdirection and navel gazing. Proponents of identity politics must not be permitted to set the agenda and define the priorities. By design this is meant to defang and trivialize leftism and draw attention away from the true causes of the (in their own right often valid) issues. Idpol is entirely contained within the capitalist/corporatist framework and serves its interests. Genuine leftists must resist divisive identity politics and its excesses, and work to dispel the popular perception which equates all of contemporary leftism with this obnoxious and counterproductive deviant expression. (Note: this isn’t infighting because idpol is not genuine leftism.)

>>393887
>what do now?
Nothing. There's nothing to do. That's the reason there's no organizational discussion. Because leftists that actually read, unlike theorylets like you, have realized the futility of fighting against a system that beat the USSR (dialectics, bitch), and will take the whole world down with it.

Only retarded faggots still think "organizing" will solve anything.

>>394784
Absolutely retarded. People - I mean PEOPLE are the driving force of our material conditions. It's not "nature". Human workers are the most powerful force in the universe.

To think that organizing does nothing in a world without organization is precisely missing how people today organized in a capitalist system absolutely transform the real physical planet.

>>394861
You're beng idealist

>>394877
"Just do nothing" isn't a plan. It's not a solution. It's literally nothing. It's jack shit. That's what you have lol.

<Help! Conditions under capitalism are worsening, let's do something!
>Just do nothing lol

I can't take that seriously, at least admit that you have no clue like the rest of us. That would at least give you a cop-out to go read more.

>>395445
I'm not saying "do nothing". I'm saying "you're wasting your time and effort on this, because it's useless".

Ok. I'm trying to agitate on reddit. But I can't. They do not seem allow me to write anything that is dangerous to capitalism. May be I'm wrong, they do not say why they delete or do not approve my posts. It is r/communism, r/communism_101. r/communism is 200k subscribers.

pic. I've only added a few lines of agitation at the bottom, not show on pic.

My thread in /b: https://leftypol.org/b

>>398506
https://leftypol.org/b/res/110582.html
fix.

There is no organizational discussion because no action is possible in the way it was in the past. The rise of communism was premised on a growing middle class splitting over the continuation of capitalism, and a growing technical class. Now, that technical class is developed, but they don't want communism in any recognizable form. The workers, who once aspired to join that new class, have been shut out. It is in the interest of those in the new class to defend their position against interlopers, whereas in the past the general drive of the new class was to make workers into the new class. The rise of eugenics as state doctrine closed off any such alliance between the working/low class and the middle class, and there's no peasants left as there were in the countries where communism did rise.

Long story short, eugenics killed any chance of communism happening along any lines that were historically predicted. There were a lot of reasons why eugenics did win out in the end, but more important is that "the working class" isn't recognizable as "the working class", as a thing that can ever be united. Eugenics has ensured that the various grades of the working/middle classes hate each other far more than they hate oligarchic power. The oligarchs understood very well that eugenics was essential to their project, hence why it was identified as the key ideological move and pushed very, VERY aggressively with social psychology and the full weight of new propaganda, and eugenics was mandated in foreign policy as a political weapon.

You can say eugenics is mean all you like, but it's not going to convince a whole lot of people. You can say you want moar wages and moar money, but that doesn't answer the basic question of the state and ones' relation to society. The problem in the core countries isn't that people are literally starving, as bad as the wages are. Raising wages does little to change the fundamental relationship with the state, or the role of the oligarchs in that state. Of course, the oligarchs have made it clear they will not give one inch on wages, but the wages thing today is only utilized to pit "good workers" against each other. The idea of a general rise in living standards, and especially workers regaining things like "rights", is anathema to the eugenicist creed that dominates in the 21st century. Much of our problem isn't a lack of material abundance, but that we live in extremely oppressive states that want to tell you what you do in your home and micromanage your life, replicating scientific management in every other area of life. The concept that it can be any other way has become inadmissible as a serious argument. Wages could only be understood as a carrot to cajole people, always granted conditionally and temporarily with a long-run goal of running wages and conditions down. For one, a large swath, at least 20%, are unemployed or at best marginally employed, and do not benefit from any of the trade union organizing. "Good workers" want nothing to do with this underclass, who are treated like lepers. This swath of the extreme underclass is even bigger in the real bad countries. Eugenics is very clear about what is to be done with this underclass, and by its nature seeks to expand who is in the underclass in its mission of total domination of society.

>>398506
>/r/communism
You're probably not going to get anywhere posting on a sub run by cops

>>395445
Jesus what's with baby leftists and frantically trying to go nowhere fast. Conditions are building, focus on yourself and get to a position where you have plenty of time, knowledge and money to finance worker movements when shit starts hitting the fan.

the biggest problem is that people get into leftism because of muh fags and muh racism not actual economic issues

>>398845
The solution is simple, we don't use 'direction' terms. I say this a lot but it's a real L to think about yourself as a leftist or a rightist, even worse is telling others you're a "leftist" or something ridiculous. Argue concrete matters and not only will you be rooted in reality but you'll help other young people by separating them from this "you left so you want open borders no iPhone!" "You like trump so you're a heckin downvote!" child-tier dichotomy.

>>398649
I should be a little more optimistic, in that I believe something different is possible - very possible, and there is already push-back against the ruling class plan in effect now. It just won't resemble the communist revolution in any way. The central question for the resistance is about peoples' relation to the state and the institutions that comprise it. Most people don't have money to fight over unless they're oligarchs, but what keeps this rotten system going is that a lot of people are invested in some form of eugenics, whether they admit it or not. It's more important for them to lord over those beneath them than anything else, and because of that, they can be relied on to drive the conditions of humanity further and further down every time. Still, eugenics is so rotten that they have to do everything in the most conspiratorial and sneaky way, because to acknowledge eugenics openly is hilariously unpopular and lays bare the relationships that support this rotten system, and lays bare that the participants really gain nothing in the end. We are at a critical point where the core eugenicists are showing their hand out of necessity, and to accomplish what they want they must destroy what remnants of democracy exist and even the idea that democracy is possible.

>>398845
The "economic issues" are largely a settled matter at this point. Oligarchy won, and whether you make it capitalist or CCP-communist flavored, that's what you're going to get. Now, the words "economic democracy" can only be imagined as some sort of airy fantasy, and the nu-communists that came out lately will ridicule such a talking point. But the very concept of sharing the wealth, once upon a time the keywords of communists and socialists, has become inadmissible as a concept. The only thing that can be imagined today is some sort of corporate state fused with the commanding heights, in which workers had better accept the ruling diktats and they have no real right or say about what happens or even rights for their personal liberty. Communism, in failing to counter the eugenics question, lost its reason for being. It was reduced to some iconography over the years, and now it is being reduced to not even that.

>>393887
Stop larping glowie

>>398829
No, I do not think so, I've looked at moderator profiles.. Anyway, yes, the sub is not useful.
Why will anyone subscribe to a channel? Sure for discussion, but not only, for action. But they will not receive the message. It can be a mistake, but in this case they think their position is the only one and they have right to hide my position from everyone. And they think they are communists.

If this is not just a single case, it is irrelevant if they are communists or not, the point is that they oppose organization. So not just it is fighting prejudice of some of the workers, but something have to be done with with those "communists".

>>399122
If you continue to try and proselytize don't mention /leftypol/ or that you're from there or you can expect to be banned in short order.

Well, I thought: I can't make threads, but I can comment and so I answered a few questions emphasizing shorter workday. Yeah.. the comments do not show up to anyone but me.

In the thread on the benefits of joining a union.. no one wrote that there can be organization for shorter workday.
So I wrote on the benefits of organization for the shorter day, but..

So I do not know, may be write an article on what it means to be a communist, It is not only studying, it is studiyng to change the world.

>>399368
Yeah, I will not link to leftypol. I only was going to agitate (so they know the day can be made shorter) and collect data, at the moment.

>>393887
>>394482
It's very weird that this issue is framed in terms of the willpower of individuals and the strategy of groups, as if this is some kind of meritocratic process and not a rigged game.

>>398950
Another deranged namefag.

>>393887
>You can popularize short workday (same wage, not lower wage!) by printing posters and gluing them, etc.

Ok but how would those demands be enforced given that there's no political representation for poor people?

>>400632
Propaganda means to educate on something, but does not necessary tell what to do. Agitation in this case is too, to educate, but at the same time, it tells what to do, to lower the workday without wage cut. Willpower "what for?".

>>400660
Worker organization is this power. When you sign a contract with employer by yourself, can you bargain for less working hours? Likely you can't. With workers organization or with unions, workers can demand collectively.

At this stage tactical discussion is for baby larpers & strategic discussion is for the intemediary larpers.

What needs to be talked about serious is logistics. Want to get a movement off the ground? You need 7 figures money minimum just to be small regional power. To build a "people's army" capable of challenging the policeforce of a medium sized US city is going to require $1 billion minimum.

Anybody bragging about shitty target practice masquerading as "militia training" or reading Clausewitz or whatever has no idea the extent of the problem or what actually needs to be done. Most western "marxists" would utterly fail to run a small business, and if they can't run a small business they're never going to be able to run a mass party. Even shitty nothingburger groups like DSA only get off the ground due to massive funding from either sympathetic millionaires or Sorosbux.

Unless a group seems to have some kind of plan to raise 9 figures worth of $USD any serious person should treat them as LARPers.

Spend less time studying tactics, more time basic management/organisational skills, microeconomics, etc.

>>402590
>Even shitty nothingburger groups like DSA only get off the ground due to massive funding from either sympathetic millionaires or Sorosbux.
That would be a huge scandal if DSA was receiving millionaire bux. Source please.

>>402590
Solution: drug dealing

>>402590
Anyone can agitate, write essays, videos, comment on the net, organize to make the message visible. Distribute material to workers, etc. The funding will be useful for publishing in a popular journal, for example, but this is not a roadblock.

Shorter workday is beneficial for unemployed, so they can participate too.

I'm reading the book, Free time, by Hunnicutt. The book can be found on libgen. I've jumped to 8 section Less time -> full employment.

Did you know that up to 1956 the movement for shorter workday was wide? Some factories working 6 hours/day. Freedom was seen as less working hours, more free time.

After 1956, government begun pushing for more job, more work, high GDP growth. They used rhetoric such as high GDP growth mean less unemployment. Communists and cold war blah blah, work more. Some of the Union leaders who before that were for shorter workday, begun saying things like: you can work 6 hours/day, but less food.
None true obviously, easy to show.

>>402590
Why not both? I've got some friends running businesses and some friends running gun ranges.

Ok, I did not get a reply from r/communism mods, I've asked them what rule I broke. So I wrote this (at the bottom) in r/socialism (not the same moderators as in r/communism) and my thread was deleted.

————–
Organizing for shorter workday, no wage cut, how can I help?

I'm not a worker, I would like to help the movement towards shorter workday (no wage cut). What can I do?

Since I'm not a worker, I decided to do agitation on the internet and may be print and glue posters at public transport, or where it is legal. Am I at the right direction?

For someone new, like myself:

How many hours required? From productivity growth, 4 hours/day, may be less.

I do not see this as a policy but as workers organizing at work place, demanding less hours without wage cut; how to do this depend on the country labor laws.

It is not a new movement, in the past it was workers goal. See literature at the end.

This should lower unemployment, so it is beneficial for unemployed and so they may help, I do not yet know how but by agitation.

Why strikes for less hours do not happen as frequently? I think workers do not know they can work less. See also [3], section 8, if USA. Agitation may help to understand this better.

Literature

https://www.vice.com/en/article/yvqqxw/who-stole-the-four-hour-workday-0000406-v21n8

https://archive.iww.org/history/library/iww/cutdownthehours/

Hunnicutt, Free time.