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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1626853070974.png ( 116.54 KB , 888x444 , ad286345111ab5af4aae759253….png )

 No.391644

Can you explain me why some "comrades" have an understanding of colonialism that has more to do with Gnosticism than Materialism?
Why colonialism has become the original sin ?
I often here even smart fellows end up in the rabbit hole with some spooky shit on "muh ancestors" "muh white people" "muh post colonial identity".
Why is colonialism worse than say slaves societies which non european countries had?
Every system (feudal, clan, slave ecc.) Has been imposed through conquering, war, competition, capitalism did the same. Colonialism is a consequence of capitalism.
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 No.391650

I do not have the words to explain it but I'm sure Zizek has explained this before
basically for those people political ideologies are secular religion and because these ideologies lack some symbols they use symbols that have a long history in our society like the original sin. Ideologies were never meant to take the place of religion and that's why when they transmute one for the other these aberrations happen.
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 No.391654

How lazy.
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 No.391657

I guess you're referring to the Black Hammer types? It's kind of like a Christian sin / guilt thing? I don't really know why it's a thing, but I bet it emerges from the same culture. I am not so concerned about these excesses though, because what seems far more common in my experience is people denying that colonialism and imperialism is or was even a thing at all.
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 No.391672

It's a "colonialism is when you have slaves and holocaust was just a genocide from a pile of others" episode
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 No.391701

>>391672
Idk you tell me, colonialism is when german people don't like rap music?
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 No.391707

I don't think you actually know what colonialism is. People in these countries were treated in much the same way the nazis treated their victims. Apparently that kind of depravity is only the ultimate evil when it happens to Europeans.
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 No.391713

>>391707
Read again OP. You are exactly the liberal i describe in OP.
>Muh ultimate ebil
>Depravity
Both should be analized in a materialist way and none of this spooky shit
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 No.391717

>>391713
Materialism doesn't mean you can't have values. Fascism was evil. Fascism is also what happens when capitalism is in crisis. These are not mutually exclusive.
Go back to your stirner containment thread.
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 No.391720

File: 1626856910097.png ( 273.05 KB , 450x450 , Stirner spooky.png )

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 No.391721

>Why is colonialism bad?
>If other social systems contained murder and slavery, why was our globalized system of murder and slavery seen as evil?
>Sure we may have massively increased the slave trade, made it a full on global market, and destroyed the economic futures of entire continents for literal centuries, but why is this seen as negative?
Why should OP get to live if I want him to die?
It’s what I want
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 No.391723

>>391720
The only people who react like this to the word evil are fucking pampered suburbanite maggots who have never even experienced a fucking fist fight, much less the horrors of war, enslavement, and genocide
Pretty much the only generation of leftists to be edgy as fuck in this particular way are also the same maggot generation to have never struggled or fought for a goddamned thing in their lives
But the people who fought the Nazis? The Vietnamese who fought the Americans? The Algerians who fought the French? The true revolutionaries and communist heroes? They’d never deny the face of evil, ever.

Particularly fascists, at least the bourgeoisie does not commit crimes for the purpose of committing barbarism as fascists did, the bourgeoisie while evil as shit too did as they do to promote their own wealth and growth, the fascists committed savage crimes to revel in the joy of slaughter and destruction.
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 No.391727

>>391721
>>391717
>>391723

Did I say you should see colonialism or the holocaust as positive development in history?
Or did I say these thing should be analized through materialism and not through idealist bullshit
>>391723
>At least the bourgeoisie does not commit crimes for the purpose of committing barbarism as fascists did,
Again this is the fucking idealist bullshit i'm talking about
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 No.391728

>>391727
Did you even read your own OP?
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 No.391731

>>391727
Why do you think being a Marxist means a person cannot make a moral judgement? Are you autistic or something?
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 No.391742

>>391723
Well I think viewing the world through the lens of "good" and "evil" causes one to see things overly simplistically. "Evil", at least in my mind, seems to imply that the person being described as such is some sort of cartoon villain that just wants to torment people for the hell of it. That is not how politics actually works though.
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 No.391743

>>391731
If by moral judgment you say it's evil it not the problem.
The problem is when there is talk about original sin and the englightment ideals caused the holocaust and my lai.
>>391728
Read it again. It's evil, but it wasn't caused by souls pozzed by a space demon like liberals belive but by the nature of our system of production.
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 No.391746

>>391743 cont.
By that i mean most of the evil moments of history are caused by systems of productions ecc.
What I see as specifically stupid is the idea that somehow colonialism is not the natural state of things under a certain system of production.
Which doesn't mean is good.
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 No.391749

>>391747
What's nazi about what I say. Explain instead of calling names.
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 No.391757

>>391742
> Evil", at least in my mind, seems to imply that the person being described as such is some sort of cartoon villain that just wants to torment people for the hell of it
That’s not how the majority of people would see “evil” so maybe that’s the problem with your position
You define evil in a way that describes homicidal psychopaths and no one else, whereas most people would also describe things such as the imperialist crimes of the USA as evil even if they aren’t committed solely for the sake of murder
Like it’s pretty damned funny to define this in such a way as to make it very hyper specific and rare, and also expect everyone to have this same way of seeing it, and also be confused when they don’t
The broadest way most people define evil are broad anti-social actions, that is actions that bring unjustifiable harm to others outside of the purposes of necessary self-defense or the defense of others
The bourgeoisie destroying the Earth’s habitability and threatening the very existence of civilization, humanity, and all living things can really only be seen as evil, that it was done in self-interest and not “uh just because” does not somehow lessen the crime
The Nazis exterminating civilians and POWs in death camps was evil, the fact that they wanted slave labor for their conquest and didn’t want to feed “useless eaters” (people who couldn’t be worked to death), thus their being a material benefit to their genocide, does not somehow lessen the heinousness of their crimes
That slavery is conducted because it is profitable to the slave owner and brings them great wealth and the alternative (in the master’s mind) is to kill the enslaved person does not somehow lessen the crime of enslavement

I do not see why acknowledging the personal material benefits for morally repugnant actions is wrong, I do not see why being a Marxist means I should jettison morality, I do not believe any average person would think this either even if the average person WAS a communist
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 No.391761

>>391743
Another problem is of course that you’re responding to arguments that haven’t actually been made.
Pretty much no one in this thread or even secular liberal society discusses “inherent evil in people”
Most people would not even say a figure like Adolf Hitler was inherently evil, as noted by the famous question as to whether one would go back and kill him in infancy

So again, you’re defining evil in a way that most people have not understood it since at least the mid-19th Century. People are describing actions as evil, not someone’s soul, whatever the fuck that means. And a person can be evil as well, this does not mean they are “purely evil”, with no amount of love for anyone and a penchant to murder for its own sake and revel in suffering.
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 No.391762

>>391757
I think it's fine to disapprove of an action, but the term "evil" just rubs me the wrong way
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 No.391765

>>391762
Okay but I don’t care
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 No.391774

>>391761
>Pretty much no one in this thread or even secular liberal society discusses “inherent evil"
I did mention post colonial studies in op which sees colonialism, capitalism ecc. As something inerenth to western mode of thought and modernity (and this includes marxism)
It also idealizes pre colonial society, even society which were based on slave owning or genocide (which is equally evil to colonialism imo) to the point were now we buy into the meme than indian americans only hugged trees and their society wasn't structured in anyway.
You are being too pedantic on my calling your evil a spook. I didn't mean to say colonialism, holocaust, slave owning or the inavsion of iraq is not evil. I mean to say that these are products of the system of productions.
The idea that somehow the bourgeois is less evil than say fascist is exactly this type of idealism where the 2 things are not connected and somehow fascism is not inerenth to the current mode of production.
Does this mean genocide is based or you cannot use the word evil? No it just means that something evil is inerenth to capitalism. Which post colonial studies don't agree.
Is colonialism and the holocaust a product of evil capitalist? No it's a product of a evil system
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 No.391780

>>391761
NOI says that white people are devils
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 No.391782

>>391761
Next time somebody mentions anglos on here i'll give you a shout out. Of about when people say first worlder?
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 No.391795

>>391780
I don’t give a fuck about the NOI and almost no one else does
>>391782
Ever heard of a joke you fucking retard?
>What about first worlders?
People are decrying their complacency, anti-communism, and general complicity with Western imperialism
>>391774
> I did mention post colonial studies in op which sees colonialism, capitalism ecc. As something inerenth to western mode of thought and modernity (and this includes marxism)
Never read post colonial literature but what would be wrong with this position regardless?
You are a materialist yes? You are the one decrying evil as a notion people believe, yes? If that’s the case, in a material sense, how can colonialism and capitalism not form the bedrock of contemporary western thought and modernity in general if this is the context modernity and modern western philosophy arose in? There could be no Marxism without capitalism, and outside of anarchism (which I’d honestly see as a pre-capitalist or pre-modern libertarian ideology even if it’s articulation did not come until the 19th Century) all modes of contemporary western philosophical thought come from a basis of rationalizing and justifying colonialism and capitalism. Liberalism and fascism are obvious examples of this and even modern conservatism is ideologically liberal, just liberal from a different time period.

Is this another case of leftypolers getting mad because they *think* someone said “muh white people bad”? You should grow thicker skin.
> It also idealizes pre colonial society, even society which were based on slave owning or genocide (which is equally evil to colonialism imo) to the point were now we buy into the meme than indian americans only hugged trees and their society wasn't structured in anyway.
In what way does it idealize them? Muh tree huggers and muh warmongering savages are both narratives created by colonialists, the reality is that these societies were as complex as Western European societies and were filled with their own contradictions and conflicts. The warped part comes in when liberals, fascists, and even western “communists” use this basis as a way to justify the extermination of these societies. As a way to justify conquest, murder, and genocide. And you cannot deny what you are trying to do is justification because were it not you wouldn’t need to argue strawmen and make a thread demanding to know how dare anyone see European colonial empires as morally repulsive.
> You are being too pedantic on my calling your evil a spook
No, I’m telling you that you’re an autist and are yourself being pedantic by creating a hyper specific meaning for evil that is in line with fucking Calvinism rather than the things most people would think of
> The idea that somehow the bourgeois is less evil than say fascist is exactly this type of idealism where the 2 things are not connected and somehow fascism is not inerenth to the current mode of production.
I don’t think they are less evil, the bourgeoisie and the fascists are allies at best and the exact same people at worst
> Does this mean genocide is based or you cannot use the word evil? No it just means that something evil is inerenth to capitalism. Which post colonial studies don't agree.
Lmao what? From what I know about most post-colonial types, most of whom identify as some sort of socialist, they would say brutality and murder is baked in to the capitalist system.
Or let me guess, you think Joseph fucking Biden is an example of a post-colonial theorist?
> Is colonialism and the holocaust a product of evil capitalist? No it's a product of a evil system
I mean, I don’t even get what you’re overall point is then. Obviously the capitalist system itself is the true monster underpinning everything, if we both agree it is evil then we were never in disagreement.
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 No.391892

>>391746
>What I see as specifically stupid is the idea that somehow colonialism is not the natural state of things under a certain system of production.
But this isn't all in the past. Various elements, be it social dominance, culture, socioeconomic differences, are colorcoded and still present in some form. Hence why we are still having discussions about it in the West. And whatever conclusion you were hoping for to alleviate yourself of whatever agency, responsibility or guilt through a hard deterministic explanation falls flat once we realize we live in the present moment with remaining problems connected to colonialism or racial discrimination.
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 No.391899

>>391644
Much of the global south is still under neo-colonial domination by the imperial core countries. Derisively calling it "original sin" doesn't work when it continues (although usually in a different form) to this day.

>Colonialism is a consequence of capitalism.

Yeah, so?
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 No.391921

>>391707
The problem is when amerifags start applying their racial hierarchy to other countries. What do Russians, Irish, Czechs, Finns have anything to do with your slavery or racial hierarchies established in colonial times?

American whiteness is not the same as being European.
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 No.391929

>>391921
>What do people have to do with it that don't have anything to do with it
Uhh, nothing? We aren't talking about Russians, Finns and Czechs. And when we are talking about Europe, then obviously Spain, France, Germany and Britain are of relevance here. How are you trying to separate "American whiteness" from Europe when white Americans are descendants of Europeans and race theories stem from the relevant European countries. "Whiteness" does play a role in the European countries I've mentioned. It's just rarely explicitly mentioned in Europe than in the US.
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 No.391934

>>391921
Funny how you didn’t mention the European empires that actually did play a hand in all of this and were even directly responsible for both the creation of the modern racial ideology as well as the creation of the United States itself
>B-b-but muh Finns, muh Czechs, muh Russians
The only one mentioning them in this particular context is you bucko
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 No.392185

>>391934
It's euro cope. They don't want to deal with their past but would rather look down on the not 100% europeans that inhabit the new continent.
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 No.392197

>>391644
I think by focusing on issues of race, and those who essentialize race relations, you miss the bigger picture of why colonialism and imperialism play such a central role in modern communist discourse. You see, while you can cite slave societies as the worst, there really is nothing in history that can compare to the sheer death and misery inflicted by colonialism. All of the Native American civilizations were wiped off the face of the Earth, with almost all of the Natives themselves violently eradicated. Africa and South Asia, two rich regions of ancient civilization and prosperous populations, faced both mass genocide and unprecedented poverty due to colonial underdevelopment. Regions from Central Asia to Oceania to Arabia all saw their native societies wiped out in the zeal of imperial conquest. It is no exaggeration to say that colonialism, through both violent genocide and death due to underdevelopment, has very likely killed hundreds of millions, if not billions (Patnaik puts the number at 1.8 billion in India alone), over the last few centuries. And the worst part is that this colonialism is still far from over. Not only do most of these societies still have economic underdevelopment due to colonialism, but the entire third world is locked into exploitative, neocolonial trade relationships which leave the people overworked and impoverished. Millions upon millions of people in former colonies die of hunger despite having such fertile lands, as the economies are geared towards giving surplus agriculture to the wealthy countries for what is practically spare change. Yes, colonialism is still an extension of capitalism, but it is the manifestation of capitalist exploitation that has by far the most presence in today's globalized society.

It is incredibly dishonest to look at the sheer scale of both colonialism and neocolonialism and view them as just issues for "spooked radlibs". Yes, race essentialism is stupid, and Vivek Chibber already pretty firmly dealt with that nonsense, but there is still overwhelming merit to tackle colonialism as the greatest issue of the modern era, and easily the greatest historical atrocity of all time. The "original sin" you speak of is not some idealist proxy for religion, it is acknowledging the sheer material fact that the imbalance in development between the first world and the third world is due to colonial exploitation. This fact is essential to understanding why the gap between the core and the periphery is still widening, and therefore provides knowledge to be used in the fight against imperialism. Yes, of course there is nothing inherent to white people that caused colonialism. If the Arab world or East Asia or West Africa had a stroke of luck in beating the Europeans to the New World, we would have very likely seen them commit the exact same atrocities and develop their own capitalist colonialism. However, that's like saying "What if my grandma was a bicycle", history went the way it did, there's no changing it, and it both has been and still is overwhelmingly Western countries that benefit from neocolonialism. Often, they still justify their hegemony with myths of "spreading democracy" and "helping them advance", which is really little more than white man's burden with a liberal polish. So please, don't smear an entire movement of anti-colonialism with a charge of racial idealism, there's a wide difference between crazy obscure looneys like Black Hammer and the principled MLs who still carry the torch of anti-imperialism. Also, don't try to frame colonialism as some sort of progressive force for the sake of fostering capitalism, that's Second International talk right there.
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 No.392228

>>391707
Nazis forced Jews and Gypsies to live in peace, gave them a job and told them how to read?

>>391774
By the same logic, you can say the end of slavery was created by the evolution of the mean of production, wage workers being cheaper than slaves in chains. And since most of the world abandoned slavery only when colonization gave them modern tools, it make colonization one of the best event in history.

And since I see a lot of you who think colonialism, or even capitalism have anything to do with race, I will remind you that the Ottomans had the longest colonial empire, the Mongols the widest one and the Japaneses the most violent one dwarfing even Leopold II.
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 No.392263

>>392228
>Nazis forced Jews and Gypsies to live in peace, gave them a job and told them how to read?
Ah yes, Europe sure did make Africa and South Asia peaceful places, right? It isn't like they massively economically exploited them to the point of unprecedented underdevelopment. You see, this is the sort of absurd chauvinism we're talking about. Colonialism was not "forcing them to live in piece, giving them a job, and teaching them to read", it was (and still is) the violent economic exploitation of these peoples. For somebody claiming to have dealt with a lot of postcolonialists, it's amazing that you haven't read anything from Walter Rodney, Samir Amin, or Utsa Patnaik.

>By the same logic, you can say the end of slavery was created by the evolution of the mean of production, wage workers being cheaper than slaves in chains. And since most of the world abandoned slavery only when colonization gave them modern tools, it make colonization one of the best event in history.

Here comes the Second International "progressive colonialism" nonsense. Colonialism did not end slavery, what do you think revived European slavery at a time where it had been largely phased out with the advent of feudalism? It did not abolish slavery, it firstly replaced more tribalistic forms of slavery and feudalism with outright chattel slavery, then "advanced" to capitalist exploitation which still saw the natives forced to produce immense labor for little to no compensation, all for the sake of enriching their overlords. There's no reason to believe that slavery could not have been abolished within colonized societies: many of these societies had already transitioned well past slavery into feudal, and occasionally even proto-capitalist, modes of production. Colonialism's only "contribution" was enforcing slavery upon entire nations to develop their colonial overlords.

>And since I see a lot of you who think colonialism, or even capitalism have anything to do with race, I will remind you that the Ottomans had the longest colonial empire, the Mongols the widest one and the Japaneses the most violent one dwarfing even Leopold II.

Where do you see the people here arguing it's a race issue? There is nothing inherent to whiteness that made the Western world imperialist: Japan is a great example of this. And yet, it remains the undeniable truth that colonialism was both largely perpetrated by Western, "white" countries, and that colonialism was largely justified by the invention of race and racism. It's stupid to claim that colonialism and capitalism were products of race: it's the other way around. Also the Mongols in their tribal, pre-capitalist state can't really be considered to have operated a colonialist economy (it would be like calling feudal empires like the HRE or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth "colonialist", it would be highly ahistorical) and the Ottomans were white, so I don't know what you were trying to get at with those last two points. Colonialism != taking other countries over, and whiteness != Christianity.
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 No.392272

>>392197
>>392263
great posts
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 No.392273

>>392263
>Where do you see the people here arguing it's a race issue? There is nothing inherent to whiteness that made the Western world imperialist: Japan is a great example of this. And yet, it remains the undeniable truth that colonialism was both largely perpetrated by Western, "white" countries, and that colonialism was largely justified by the invention of race and racism. It's stupid to claim that colonialism and capitalism were products of race: it's the other way around. Also the Mongols in their tribal, pre-capitalist state can't really be considered to have operated a colonialist economy (it would be like calling feudal empires like the HRE or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth "colonialist", it would be highly ahistorical) and the Ottomans were white, so I don't know what you were trying to get at with those last two points. Colonialism != taking other countries over, and whiteness != Christianity.
It is in moments like this where a lefty/pol/er reveals they do in fact identify and sympathize with the colonizers and conquerors of centuries past, and do in fact identify themselves with the imperialist endeavors of modern day empires. If one did not identify with such criminals they would not be insulted when faced with said criminals’ condemnation.
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 No.392277

>>392263
Agree with everything but ottomans were not white. There was anatolians who are meds and central asians who were nomads and look asian.
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 No.392332

>>392263
>Europe sure did make Africa and South Asia peaceful places, right?
Pax Britannica. Short, but peace.

> It isn't like they massively economically exploited them to the point of unprecedented underdevelopment.

Are you talking about the precolonial tribes who still used stone tools, didn't knew how to write and lived in outrageous misery? Helping them to develop was the central talking point of the colonial propaganda.
Most colonies were just protectorates anyway and barely had any white people in them. Hell, Monaco is a colony.

>Here comes the Second International "progressive colonialism" nonsense.

Go read your classics. Antic patriarchal family businesses, feudalism, capitalism, socialism, communism.

Colonialism made primitive and feudal society evolve to the capitalist stage and made the good old chain slavery and it's torture punishments evolve into wage labor with in almost every place the choice to keep working the land for food or to sell their labor for a wage.
Why do you think the French gave guns to the former tribes living in the constant fear of raids from the other tribes who kept them weak on purpose?

And now I will even say that colonialism have nothing to do with capitalism, it's an imperial trope. Morocco was, and arguably still is a colonial power. China have a long history of colonialism, that's why they were initially glad the French came to free them. I could name the Persian empire, the Maya, the incas…
The only singularity of the capitalist colonization was to make many society more developed. Yes, at the cost of labor.

>Also the Mongols in their tribal, pre-capitalist state can't really be considered to have operated a colonialist economy

The colonized had to work for their overlords and to provide soldiers and as much money as they could, and when the Khan decided it was not enough he would just kill everyone. You are right, it's not colonialism, it's a lot worse.
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 No.392382

>>392263
>>392332
>Colonialism made primitive and feudal society evolve to the capitalist stage and made the good old chain slavery and it's torture punishments evolve into wage labor with in almost every place the choice to keep working the land for food or to sell their labor for a wage.

you say that as if its a good thing or an improvement, most of these regions especially the colonized in america and central africa were well on their way to socialism before the european powers came along
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 No.392386

File: 1626891241456.mp4 ( 9.49 MB , 1440x1080 , IMG_2725.MP4 )

>>392332
>”Pax Britannica”
<Unironically posting 19th Century imperialist propaganda on a communist board
Ultra cringe anglo
You could easily just not identify with savage imperialist entities yet here you are making a fool of yourself while also claiming other anons are talking about “original sin” of colonialism
And yet you stand around defending the crimes of the British Empire and even pushing ancient propaganda in spite of their actions in no way being related to you

Chauvinist cringe
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 No.392390

>>392382
Ironic how the anglo cunt continues regurgitating what he learned in Marxism 101 on this very site while failing to acknowledge that European colonial endeavors massively increased the slave trade, its brutality, and its death toll before going on to wage the largest wars in human history

And slavery still fucking exists anyway
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 No.392524

>>392332
>Pax Britannica. Short, but peace.
Yeah, it was totally peaceful considering the British had to actively, violently suppress discontent in order to maintain their "peace". It was totally peaceful when the zeal to expand empires caused multiple world wars. It was totally peaceful when Britain starved millions in artificial famines. It was especially peaceful when colonialism actively inflamed South Asian communalism and religious fundamentalism, causing many of the most horrific conflicts of the twentieth century.

>Are you talking about the precolonial tribes who still used stone tools, didn't knew how to write and lived in outrageous misery? Helping them to develop was the central talking point of the colonial propaganda.

>Most colonies were just protectorates anyway and barely had any white people in them. Hell, Monaco is a colony.
1. This is a /pol/ tier understanding of pre-colonial civilization.
2. You seriously believe that colonialism developed the colonies, rather than giving the colonizers egregious profits? You are literally falling for fucking Victorian-era propaganda that only makes sense if you imagine Great Britain as some absurdly-generous nation that was willing to spend over a century helping the people of the world at its own expense. It also has to ignore the sudden gap in development between the colonizing power and the colonized world, as well as the fact that the colonized countries were left in an extreme amount of poverty compared to their former overlords.
Seriously, if you're not going to take my word for it, just read the attached book, Rodney lays out in undeniable terms what colonialism did to Africa, with parallels in other colonized nations. Needless to say, it was the exact opposite of "development".

>Go read your classics. Antic patriarchal family businesses, feudalism, capitalism, socialism, communism.

I have, haven't you ever read what Marx and Engels actually had to say about colonialism? Marx only described colonialism in the bleakest of terms, and while early Marx expressed hopes that colonialism could prove progressive, that hope had faded by at least the time of the Indian Revolt.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/england/colonialism.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/china/index.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/india/index.htm#fiwi

>Colonialism made primitive and feudal society evolve to the capitalist stage and made the good old chain slavery and it's torture punishments evolve into wage labor with in almost every place the choice to keep working the land for food or to sell their labor for a wage.

You are acting as if colonialism came as some grand eradicator of slavery, when in reality, many colonized societies had already moved squarely into the feudal mode of production. In many ways, colonialism actually retarded and actively regressed these societies. In West Africa, colonialism stimulated the slave market at the expense of the growing feudal empires, and the chattel-style slavery that Europeans practiced was objectively more cruel and primitive than the tribalistic forms of slavery found in Africa. And again, under colonialism, even after "abolition", Africans still worked as de facto slaves for the enrichment of their overlords, just look at the Belgian Congo.

>Why do you think the French gave guns to the former tribes living in the constant fear of raids from the other tribes who kept them weak on purpose?

Because a staple of colonialism is inflaming reactionary tensions within the colonies in order to prevent anti-imperial solidarity. Why do you think colonialism supported communalism, fundamentalism, and ethnic tensions within the colonized communities? It's hard to believe the French would pit tribes against each other for some sort of noble goal of defending the weaker tribe.

>And now I will even say that colonialism have nothing to do with capitalism, it's an imperial trope. Morocco was, and arguably still is a colonial power. China have a long history of colonialism, that's why they were initially glad the French came to free them. I could name the Persian empire, the Maya, the incas…

You're using an extremely infantile definition of colonialism, where colonialism is just the process of taking over another country for one's own benefit. Colonialism is rather a particular economic form in which emerging capitalist economies seek capital accumulation through the economic exploitation of another people without real efforts to integrate the colonized peoples into your patrimony. It is intrinsically linked to capitalism, as shown by the fact that feudal and slave-era empires sought active assimilation and integration of their conquests into their nation and political system, while colonization uniquely saw the colonized peoples subjugated under corporate rule and short-term exploitative governments that were disinterested in broader socio-political integration. Obviously settler-colonialism is different from the above, but even that is driven by an active genocidal effort to habitate a land and consume its resources. In either case, while conquest as a whole is not necessarily capitalist, colonialism in particular, having begun with the early exploratory colonies and the conquest of the New World and matured in the conquests of Asia and Africa, is intrinsically linked to capitalism.

>The only singularity of the capitalist colonization was to make many society more developed. Yes, at the cost of labor.

I hate to outright insult you, but holy shit, are you even aware of what Britain did to South Asia and Africa? The sheer levels of poverty inflicted through uneven "trade". Please, read the attached book as well as this MR article on British exploitation of India.
https://monthlyreview.org/2021/02/01/the-drain-of-wealth/

>The colonized had to work for their overlords and to provide soldiers and as much money as they could, and when the Khan decided it was not enough he would just kill everyone. You are right, it's not colonialism, it's a lot worse.

Genghis Khan was a monster, and he certainly killed many people in his conquests, but if you were to look at actual conditions for those under his rule, I think you'd find it tough to argue that it was more exploitative than under the Belgian Congo or the British Raj.

Look man, I really don't know what on Earth you're trying to argue here. Are you a Negri or Harvey fan who wants to argue for the progressive force of globalization? Are you a recent ex-pollack who still hasn't abandoned their whitewashed view of colonization? Are you an unironic Fabian or Kautskyite who somehow time travelled to the present? Or are you just a reactionary who is larping as left after you came here from the /pol/ raids? Because, and I will try to say this in the nicest way possible, I really don't understand how somebody could come to an explicitly Marxist-Leninist forum and peddle unironic colonialist apologia that's been debunked since before any of us were born.
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 No.392767

>>392524
Nice effort post.
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 No.392807

It's not good to live in the past too much. Citizens of formerly colonized countries allow it to shape their identity and get all bent out of shape for it. It's easy to blame history for how things are, but if that becomes an excuse to ignore your own input and excuse yourself from putting effort into improving the situation nothing will get done. Sounds like a boomery sentiment but there's some truth to it.
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 No.392814

>>392807
>past
You know jack shit about the current economic relationship of the global north to the global south, do you?
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 No.392818

>>392814
I know about it, but it has nothing to do about colonialism. Colonialism implies territorial dominance.
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 No.392825

>>392818
Did anyone say there is colonialism right now as it was in the past? They don't need to literally occupy or own the area to exert control.
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 No.392893

File: 1626905808749.pdf ( 799.8 KB , 212x300 , Lenin - Imperialism The Hi….pdf )

>>392818
>Colonialism implies territorial dominance.
Not really, colonialism denotes an economic relationship rather than a political one. As I said in my previous post, territorial conquest is not synonymous with colonialism. You can have territorial conquest without colonialism (ie most pre-capitalist wars) and you can have colonialism without territorial conquest (the subjugation of the Qing to the Europeans, which only saw the cession of a couple port cities). I'd recommend you read Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism, to understand the economic nature of colonialism rather than the liberal concept.
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 No.392914

>>392807
>formerly
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 No.392920

>>392818
> Colonialism implies territorial dominance.
uygha the US has a major military base on every continent and some level of occupying force in almost every country
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 No.413335

>>391650
Zizek is a red facist
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 No.413349

Danm I expected this thread to just be a bunch of circlejerking about how terrible “radlibs” are, but I’m actually seeing a ton of good effortposts. I feel like this board is returning the quality it had pre-merger with Bunkerchan!
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 No.413372

Using this thread to bump
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 No.413384

>>413335
>facist
12 year old detected
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 No.413747

>>391644
No, not all non-European states had slavery. Ironically, when the Europeans started colonizing the world, they encouraged slavery and openly practiced it.

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