/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>390350
i forgot to write jews

Great man theory has the starting point of understanding history as the agency of individuals. Marx on the other hand starts from the material conditions. For example while Vespasian was a better tactician and strategist then the emperors that followed, the Roman army wasn't a hollowed shell in his day as it was in the 5th century so even Vespasian couldn't have saved Rome in the 5th century like he did in the 1st century.

>>390345
> Do marxist really belive that if hitler wasn't born, 6 millions would still be dead at the end of world war 2?
No I think tens of millions would die either way
> That operation barbarossa would be a failure?
Yes, the German elite were delusional to think they could pull it off
> Or that if gorbachov wasn't born the soviet union would still fall?
Possibly, he just represented a clique that had emerged and grown out of the pressures of the USSR’s competition with the West
> Or that if trotsky succeded lenin the USSR would be the same thing as with Stalin?
It would be mostly the same but not entirely, people do make a difference, the problem with great man theory is that it tells history as a collection of stories with main characters who singularly shape events; not only that but this way of telling history ignores that history is an ongoing process, while at the same time is a politicized way to view history as all narratives have an intention and meaning

>>390345
>Or that if gorbachov wasn't born the soviet union would still fall?
Obviously
>Or that if trotsky succeded lenin the USSR would be the same thing as with Stalin?
For that to happen, you would need to have an entirely different revolution to happen, most likely without bolsheviks. Also, stop thinking like it was a fucking throne or something.

>>390392
>Obviously
The State Committee on the State of Emergency shows that the state was divided and just decided to go with a military coup too late with too few forces.

If it wasn't Adolf Hitler it would've been Mark Hitler or Bob Hitler or Tiffany Hitler who would've filled his shoes.

Screaming about Jews wasn't new. Russophobia wasn't new. Whining about Versailles wasn't new. Germanic supremacism wasn't new. Putting minorities in concentration camps wasn't new. Fucking up Europe with wars wasn't new. Lebensraum wasn't new. The only thing that set Hitler apart was his oratorical ability. In most ways, he was the conclusion to German politics.

What Stalin said as a plea for sympathy, I say as an indictment: Hitlers come and go, the German people and the German state remain.

On the other hand if the socdems and the communists had gotten over their differences and formed a coalition they could have stopped the Nazis from taking power.

>>390345
>Do marxist really belive that if hitler wasn't born, 6 millions would still be dead at the end of world war 2?
No. Marxists think in terms of holistic structures and systems. Its analyses are mainly "top-down", viewing the behavior of the parts (individuals) in terms of the whole (societies, classes, material factors). Marxist theory would say that Hitler emerged from the structural conditions of capitalism and nationalism at the time and had Hitler never existed, some other demagogue would have taken his place.

>>390563
>No.
Oh wait yes. I misread your question. Or at least probably. The true answer is probably. Occasionally there does arise an exceptional individual who does more to affect history than the rest, but history as a whole is the product of millions of minor contributions that sum together to yield broad results. And the key point is that material pressures (i.e, capitalist decline) structured society so that conditions were ripe for fascism.

Also, people often misunderstand Hitler's role in the nazi party. The nazi party existed before Hitler, it was founded by Anton Drexler. Its platform prior to Hitler's rise was almost the same as it was after. This included the currents of anti-semitism and Völkisch ethno-nationalism. Hitler wasn't some all-powerful warlock who cast a spell over Germany. He was produced, mentored, and enabled and ultimately selected to be the nazi party's figurehead because of his aptitude for oratory and charisma. Later, he used the power vested in him to dominate the party through the violent elimination of political rivals and consolidated his control over it.

Refusing to see in capitalism itself the cause of the crises and cataclysms that periodically ravage the world, the bourgeois and reformist ideologues have always pretended to explain them by the wickedness of this one or that one. We see here the fundamental identity of the fascist and anti-fascist ideologies, if we can call them such.
Both of them proclaim that it is the thoughts, the ideas, the will of human groups that determine social phenomena.
Against these ideologies, which we call bourgeois because they are ideologies for the defense of capitalism, against these past, present and future idealists, Marxism has demonstrated that, on the contrary, it is social relations that determine ideological movements.

Even when our bourgeois and reformists recognize that imperialist wars are due to conflicts of interest they remain far from an understanding of capitalism.
We see this in their lack of understanding of the meaning of destruction.
For them the goal of war is victory, and the destruction of enemy men and installations are only means for achieving this goal. To such an extent that there are innocents who foresee wars made by means of sleeping pills.
We have demonstrated that, on the contrary, destruction is the principal goal of war.
The imperialist rivalries that are the immediate cause of wars are themselves nothing but the consequence of ever increasing over-production.
Capitalist production is in fact forced to grow because of the fall in the profit level, and crises are born of the need to ceaselessly expand production along with the impossibility of selling goods.
War is the capitalist solution to the crisis. The massive destruction of installations, of the means of production and of goods allows production to start up again, and the massive destruction of men cures the periodic “over-population” which goes hand in hand with over-production.
One must be a petit bourgeois crackpot to believe that imperialist conflicts could be settled by a game of belote or around a round table, and that this enormous destruction and the deaths of tens of millions of men are only due to the stubbornness of some, the wickedness of others, and the cupidity of yet others still.

>>390497

(Psst. I agree with you but be careful about dropping these blackpills here. t. Balkan Jew)

Hitler didn’t personally kill 6 million Jews. Hatred of Jews already existed in the continent, or perhaps you didn’t know that you retard? Jewish pogroms had existed before WW1. Hitler only represented the most acute of that xenophobic reaction. But you are obviously miseducated and most likely retarded. I do not believe you ARENT a retard that was given birth to and was more deserving of being aborted because it surprises me your mother kept you.

So no my retarded fellow, GMT still is bullshit.

OP this is a meaningless question because the past doesn't exist

>>390897
>>390369
I agree but a historian guy on reddit said that historical materialism is bullshit because even if the economy was shit in weimar 20's if europe had not developed a culture of anti semtism over the course of centuries due to cultural differences the german wouldn't have found their scapegoats for economic problems in jews. Therefore the holocaust didn't happen only for economic reasons.

>>390938
>Therefore the holocaust didn't happen only for economic reasons.
Good thing historical materialism doesn't say that it's an exclusively economic development then.

>>390938
>Reddit
Anyway, there is a material basis for anti semitism too

>>390938
Do you think only jewish people and not slavs, romani, communists or gay people were murdered in WWII?

>>390959
>actually All lives matter!!!!1!
The jews were the main victims, by far, because they were the ones intended to be completely exterminated. Thats why there is so much attention to jewish victims of WW2 and less to gay victims or dutch soldier victims or…
Of course other people were killed. But those died primarily for war reasons, not extermination attempt, which is what stands out, is scarier and needs to be displayed first and foremost as a lesson for future generations.

>>390969
Not sure if radlib or /pol/ false-flag. Either way, fuck off.

>>390345
do you retards realise that this "alternative history" shit is absolute occultism and mysticism? we will never know what would have happened if Hitler wasn't born. there is no way you can prove that.

>>390969
Communists were as targeted as jews were.

>>390969
The “holocaust” only resulted in the cleansing of impure Jews. The purebloods were allowed by the Nazis to set up Israel

The only great men in history were Jesus Christ (PBUH) Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) Gautma Buddha (PBUH) Napoleon Bonaparte (PBUH) and Vladimir Lenin (PBUH)

>>390497 A decidedly essentialist statement for someone that frequents this forum. I don't disagree, but I highly doubt that Stalin, in his heart of hearts, really intended that statement as a plea for sympathy.

inb4 i'm called a reactionary, "tankie go brrrr" and all that

>>390345
>Or that if trotsky succeded lenin the USSR would be the same thing as with Stalin?
Relevant

>>390345
Do marxist really belive that if hitler wasn't born, 6 millions would still be dead at the end of world war 2?
Marxists reject the idea of greatman theory because to argue that Hitler was directly responsible for all the atrocities of WWII is a somewhat reductive analysis. Yes, Hitler gave the order, but who pulled the trigger? Yes, Hitler gave speeches, but who gave him the microphone?
Hitler was the face and the commander of the Nazi regime, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that he was alone in building the Nazi war machine and enforcing it. Alongside him were others who shared his genocidal aspirations, who (if we are to deal with hypotheticals) could have also followed suit and did what hitler did.
Alexander the great was nothing without his army. It's due to the fact that most historians portray and write history as more of a story often with a lack of materialist analysis that we get these greatman theories. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of people in the world who could, if given power, be like Adolf Hitler, but they lack the connections, resources and men to do so.

>That operation barbarossa would be a failure?
Again, a hypothetical. But at the end of the day, Babarossa was a failure.

>Or that if gorbachov wasn't born the soviet union would still fall?
Again, a hypothetical, at the end of the USSR fell.

>Or that if trotsky succeded lenin the USSR would be the same thing as with Stalin?
Again, also a hypothetical. We can see the ideological differences in both sides, but we can only speculate and imagine how the USSR would have changed based on these policies being enacted, which again, leads us to analysing history as more of a story and have us try to analyse material conditions which may or may not have arisen based on said policies.

>>390411
Both of those were porkies factions. At best it would be difference with nationalist liberal and full neolib factions. By the time when Gorby came into picture USSR was already done for.

>>390938
>I agree but a historian guy on reddit said that historical materialism is bullshit
r/historymemes isn't inhabited by historians you know?

>if hitler wasn't born
Yes
>that if gorbachov wasn't born the soviet union would still fall
Highly likely
>trotsky succeded lenin
Now that's just leaving alternative history for a pure fantasy scenario lol

I think you're all the greatest… posters!