[ home / overboard / sfw / alt / cytube] [ leftypol / b / WRK / hobby / tech / edu / ga / ent / music / 777 / posad / i / a / lgbt / R9K / dead ] [ meta ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Email
Subject
Comment
Captcha
Tor Only

Flag
File
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)

Matrix   IRC Chat   Mumble


File: 1626280186772.jpg ( 109.66 KB , 1346x1006 , 1625809643307.jpg )

 No.377351

What is the theoretical basis for hating fascism more than liberal capitalism? I mean all the really matters is the material conditions not the bullshit in peoples heads so why are we so concerned with whether fascism or liberalism is in power.

To be clear I'm not a fascist but I'm just confused with why tf almost all socialist agitation and talk seems to be about beating a dead ideology? Are we just scrapping it out for second place?
>>

 No.377354

Because of who supported fascists historically. Any smart Nazis would become Nazbols or some form of fascist type communist because of what represented Nazis historically: corporate interest. In Italy is a bit different but most people who consider themselves fascist today aren’t the Italian type of fascist.
>>

 No.377356

>>377354
Why does it matter who supports fascism? I mean what are you going to do about it anyway?
>>

 No.377404

File: 1626282377023-0.jpg ( 162.8 KB , 1098x975 , Dcaf0gjXkAA_h9d.jpg )

File: 1626282377023-1.jpg ( 2.38 MB , 1750x1280 , Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-0034….jpg )

I try to think more in terms of processes than discrete, static categories. I think fascism develops from an imperialistic mindset. Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were focused on building empires. Read about the Italian invasions of Libya and Ethiopia, there was unbelievable cruelty. There was something really bestial about it. Now, if you look at it from a long-term historical viewpoint, the British Empire did similar things. The American Empire has done similar things.

That's what ISIS wanted to. When I watched ISIS propaganda when they were growing very fast, it was stomach churning.

But this is why I think it's not enough to oppose "fascism" as a discrete category and leave it at that. I think you have to also oppose imperialism, since the two are intertwined. Or they can co-exist at the same time. South Africa during Apartheid seemed like a fairly "liberal" state for whites, but for blacks, they might as well have been living in a fascist regime. Or if we're Americans, we have happy liberalism at home, but our military smashes other countries into bits and pieces. If you create that kind of mentality in society, which helps sustain your own way of life, then eventually that mentality can come home to roost. The empire is in decline, but the imperialistic mentality is widespread in society because it was cultivated in the empire-building project, and then that mentality begins to demand a kind of fascism to arrest the empire's decline.

Nazi Germany didn't just come of out nowhere. Look at Erich Ludendorff, he was one of the big Nazi Party guys when they come to power, and he was practically the military dictator of Germany during the latter part of World War I, because they ran everything through the emergency war council with extraordinary powers. They were big-time imperialists.

While the social democrats were against fascism, didn't they support the war?
>>

 No.377406

Fascism is a boogieman for a lot of normal people and most "leftists" are just liberals anyways.
Like the "communists" here who with defend CNN and TYT for no reason other then their inability to shake their liberalism
>>

 No.377407

>>377351
>I mean all the really matters is the material conditions not the bullshit in peoples heads
Is this what passes for Marxism nowadays?
>>

 No.377417

>>377351
the theoretical basis is materialism - they can and will overtly kill us, torture us, disappear us, rape us, rape family in front of us, etc.

liberal capitalism silences us, controls our minds, and demonizes us, but they only kill the ones who speak out too much or are a real threat. The ones who are not making themselves public are not at risk. That's the majority of leftists.

i believe that in a way fascism is very close to communism, in that communism is the direct negation of fascism more than it is liberalism, and that fascism can anger and radicalize people against the fascist regime, but it's still not something I'd like to have to deal with because most of us probably would not make it out alive. It forces partisanship, which makes us weak and exposed. We can work best through understanding the development of ideas and society, and leveraging that to change things without exposing ourselves.
>>

 No.377422

>>377356
Ww2 apparently
>>

 No.377454

>>377407
Read Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
>>

 No.377462

>>377417
That sounds like a good way of militarizing the Communists. At least they can stop pretending like the ruling power is benign like modern commies in their walled off soapboxes. Liberalism has found the perfect way to neuter communists.
>>

 No.377472

>>377462
i agree, but it also is a way of just dying
>>

 No.377480

>>377354
Omfg read Otto Paetel.

The problem with national bolshevism isn't because "muh nazi-communism" but because it puts nationalism on the same level with class struggle which will inevitably fail regardless. National Bolsheviks didn't have any corporate interest.
>>

 No.377486

I think we should be focused on exterminating monopoly capitalists more than anything else. Liberalism and fascism will go away once they do.
>>

 No.377499

>>377472
Isn't that all revolutions? Tbh I'd rather die for my beliefs than slowly suffocate in this hellhole.
>>

 No.377505

In a scientific sense, fascism isn't an ideology, but third positionism is a super category that mixes socialism and other movements (like nationalism for example). Third positionism fails because it replaces class with something else, or puts it on the same level with another concept. It will inevitably be co-opted by imperialism. If you want an example for this, the founder of the Lehi paramilitary in Israel once declared to be "national bolshevist". Israel is now an american puppet state.
>>

 No.377510

>>

 No.377513

>>377486
Why monopoly capitalism more than anything else? Why do you want more boug?
>>

 No.377519

>>377513
No, so you can control the bourg ding dong
>>

 No.377526

Fascism is the political ideology of eugenics. You cannot have an intelligible fascism without eugenics, and in all societies where eugenics is featured, the tendency of its eugenicist element is towards all forms of fascism to the exclusion of any other arrangement. This means that fascism will entail much more than "bullshit in peoples' heads". These ideologies are not wholly arbitrary talking points, despite the effort to degrade human discourse to that. Fascism wouldn't have any appeal if opposition to eugenics could be expressed in any meaningful way.
>>

 No.377530

>>377351
Well, liberals not only used fascism to kill communists, they now also use fascism to scare (Western) communists into siding with liberalism. Funny isn't it?
>>

 No.377532

>>377505
100% nazbols are rubes and either fix their mistakes and become Communists or become puppets for Capitalism. I don't understand is why do self-avowed Socialists see Fascism as x100 worse than liberalism.
>>

 No.377537

>>377519
You cant
>>

 No.377550

>>377532
Because the failures of liberalism help to produce fascism that only reproduces the most hyper-competitive aspects of liberalism like what eugene-kun just said. It's eugenicist at its very core, the matter of deciding who gets to live and die by inherent qualities. Capitalist competition fetish applied to the wider sphere of human society. Fascism can only crush the capitalist's class main opposition or clear the way for capitalism to reconstitute itself after a period of mass destruction.
>>

 No.377553

File: 1626285867473.jpg ( 61.33 KB , 640x515 , image0.jpg )

Liberal capitalism is fascism but with more than one political party to represent the fascists
>>

 No.377569

>>377404
How do you explain latin american fascism?
>>

 No.377577

> I'm just confused with why tf almost all socialist agitation and talk seems to be about beating a dead ideology? Are we just scrapping it out for second place?

It isn't you are making shit up based on internet crap, most likely twitteroids calling everything fascism
>>

 No.377580

>>377569
It has required massive amounts of support from the U.S. to hold it together. It's an unstable particle.
>>

 No.377583

>>377532
Personally, I don't, but probably those who do just focus on the violent appearance/action too much without realizing the essence of it.
>>

 No.377587

>>377526
Fascism isn't an ideology. It's a mush of mysticism.
>>

 No.377591

instead of asking really idiotic questions you might just read some very basic texts on these issues
>>377354
>Any smart Nazis would become Nazbols or some form of fascist type communist
you got to love caballos cope over how he keeps insisting that people like you don't exist when in fact you make at least a plurality of posters here with how retarded you are
>>

 No.377593

>>377569
It seems like an extreme reaction to the ruling mestizo classes gradually losing or having to share power with the conquered and corralled populations.
>>

 No.377639

>>377577
Not OP, but I see this shit mostly outside the internet in my own country. I've seen socialist publications become pro-liberal and pro-EU, with some idiots even comparing our own right-wing "populists" with socialist "dictators" in lat am. The left-to-liberal pipeline due to liberal fearmongering is very strong here, but it's not unique. There's similar shit in the rest of Europe.
IMO part of the reason is that even socialists have been slowly brainwashed by capitalist realism and implicitly became doomers, so some imaginary fascist threat at least gives them something to screech about, it's the next best thing to oppose after capitalism.
>>

 No.377698

>>377587
Ideology is just a refined form of mysticism though. It is not substantive in of itself, but an indicator of what lies beneath. That was one of Marx's better observations, that ideology is largely bullshit.

The principles of fascism, the wacky mystical hijinks and fetishization of eastern mysticism, is not accidental or purely superficial. Such views are aligned with the actual goals of the fascist - that is, that most of them are invested in eugenics, a reordering of society and the total control of that ordering. If eugenics were laid bare for what it is, it would be difficult to consider it any sort of functioning social system, because the results even in its early days were clearly ruinous. A layer of mysticism and ritual reinforces the eugenicist mindset through a number of mental tricks and faggotries. It is among the secrets of the fascist priesthood, perhaps not shared universally - at the end of the day, people are invested in more basic things - but the mysticism is a feature of any ideological system. Liberalism has its mysticism, and communism has a mysticism, but fascist mysticism is far more virulent.

The bulk of the Nazi core, though, were motivated by eugenics outright. The conceits of "muh nation" were never more than a way to expand the base. Everything about fascism involves taking traditional forms of society, abolishing them, and creating a parody tradition in its place. It is, despite its appearance, a very progressive ideology. Futurism and reconstruction were trends in the very earliest expressions of modern fascism, and could be seen even in the more overtly reactionary protofascists. The fascists themselves were conscious of what they were doing, and it was not a deep secret. The most you can say is that fascists didn't advertise explicitly every step of what they were doing in social transformation, but the push towards futurism was explicitly stated to literate fascists, and it was not hard for fascists to show their contempt for traditions that did not serve eugenics. Fascism quite visibly stood opposed to traditional religion, seeking to replace it with positive reformulations of Christianity or even replacing it with some neo-paganism.
>>

 No.377734

>>377404
I get what you’re saying, but this feels a bit like asking why do you think we should screen for lung cancer instead of opposing smoking.

One does cause the risk of the other, but you still have to do prevention for the latter, once it’s in the realm of possibility.
>>

 No.377763

File: 1626290787388-0.jpg ( 157.78 KB , 1400x802 , 1904 Congo Man stays at se….jpg )

File: 1626290787388-1.png ( 1004.88 KB , 586x833 , Lord Halifax and Hitler - ….png )

Liberalism - from a human moral perspective - is no worse than fascism

It just means fascism "over there"
Belgium was a liberal society when they were going over to the congo to chop the hands off little girls because their fathers didn't meet their rubber quotas
Britain was a liberal society, with the economist opposing food aid to starving people because
>The newspaper opposed the provision of aid to the Irish during the Great Famine. The Economist argued for laissez-faire policies in which self-sufficiency, anti-protectionism and free trade, not food aid, were in the opinion of the paper the key to helping the Irish live through the famine which killed approximately one million people
Britain was a liberal society when it was shooting indians for the crime of taking salt which they had banned them from taking from their own lands

Fascism becomes the tool of the bourgeois when finance capital has no recourse to access and exploit colonies

The imperialists have understood that to avoid civil war, they must find new colonies to exploit
< “I was in the East End of London (a working-class quarter) yesterday and attended a meeting of the unemployed. I listened to the wild speeches, which were just a cry for ‘bread! bread!’ and on my way home I pondered over the scene and I became more than ever convinced of the importance of imperialism…. My cherished idea is a solution for the social problem, i.e., in order to save the 40,000,000 inhabitants of the United Kingdom from a bloody civil war, we colonial statesmen must acquire new lands to settle the surplus population, to provide new markets for the goods produced in thefactories and mines. The Empire, as I have always said, is a bread and butter question. If you want to avoid civil war, you must become imperialists.
-Cecil Rhodes quoted in Lenins Imperialism

When Germany had no access to colonies to exploit it was forced to enact fascistic terror against its own people to restore profitability (by crushing labour) and prevent the inevitable communist revolution. It was colonialism turned inward.
A talk between Hitler and Lord Halifax is quite illuminating in this respect on the colonial question we see that Ww2 was really a fight over Germanys right to own colonies and take shit from the other bourgeois

https://archive.org/details/documentsmateria01germ/page/2/mode/2up
>>

 No.377772


Fascism is imperialism turned inward.
It’s more of a direct threat while liberalism has to pretend to be tolerant.
>>

 No.377774

>>377763
Good post. Reminds me of the quote "Fascism is imperialism inverted" or something like that. Do you remember who said it?
>>

 No.377782

>>377774
you talking about Foucault's boomerang?
>>

 No.377802

>>377763
Very good post. Recommending Losurdo's Liberalism: A Counter History to anyone who wants to know more about this subject.
>>

 No.377832

>>377763
Makes a lot of sense. Is there any reason then to "fight fascism" in particular rather than just see them as both sides of the same coin and chucking that fucker?
>>

 No.377839

>>377782
Not sure.
>>

 No.377854

>>377526
What was the eugenics policy in fascist italy?
>>

 No.377969

>>377854
Good point
>>

 No.383075

>>377351
Fascism is a form of liberalism and capitalism. It's not a unique ideology, simply an open terroristic dictatorship aimed at he complete suppression of the working class.
>>

 No.383109

Read Bordiga and Losurdo.

Fascism is what liberalism itself leads to when it shuns and fights off the Left. It's no use to privilege the latter over the former when the contradictions of the said latter lead repeatedly to the degeneration to the depredations of the said former. The fear, and of course the actual violence, of the former is used to discipline the Left and forbid deviation from the status quo.

And as others have said all the spooky stuff "already" happens in the imperialized states, and it only gets "worse" because the denizens of the imperial core have to deal with the same for once.
>>

 No.383114

> for hating fascism more than liberal capitalism
liberal capitalism is fascist in structure these days, there is no 'invisible hand' its just a gossamer of state grants and subsidies - and when countries do this well (see China) they succeed. Most of the US's success is forcing other countries to NOT do this forcing them to work under the hilariously incompetent direction of international capitalists than you know a political force that has at least an inkling of an idea of what would be good for the country. This isn't a call to brutal bureaucracy over that of neoliberalism. just the idea that capitalists can control capitalism is fucking retarded and fell apart sometime in the 1920s leading to the initial fascist rise.
>>

 No.383122

>>377774
I think the quote is that it was the application of colonial rule and terror to Europe itself. Of course, even then that isn't strictly true, since it was against the proletariat of Germany, Italy, Spain, the USSR etc.
>>

 No.383130

>>377351
> What is the theoretical basis for hating fascism more than liberal capitalism?
Actually existing under fascism
If fascists took power you think “Leftypol” would still exist? You think they wouldn’t use online data to track down every last potential threat and eliminate them?
The material basis for hating fascism more than liberalism is because under fascism each and every one of us would already be dead and not shitposting here
>>

 No.383133

>>377462
It sounds like a good way of dying
You think the people in this fucking board of all places have the guts to resist fascism?
I’m talking 1940s fascism, not even whatever nightmare can be created with modern technology
Everyone on this board would be fucking dead under a fascist dictatorship
>>

 No.383138

>>377698
You know Eugene, the more of you I read, the more it makes sense
>>

 No.383217

>>377404
In reading about Fascist Italy and Japan one gets the impression that they weren't all that different from the other imperial powers of the time, particularly Japan. Even in countries like the US and UK, the prevailing institutions back then could hardly disguise themselves as being democratic. (Some have called Woodrow Wilson a proto-fascist for this reason) One could even apply all of this to Nazi Germany, as their 'racial hygiene' laws and colonial ambitions weren't too far removed from other contemporary states.
>>

 No.383219

>>377351
>What is the theoretical basis for hating fascism more than liberal capitalism?
theoretical: relatively limited, difficult to write without sounding like an apologist for liberal capitalism, not a hugely interesting subject.
practical: the last time communists were naive enough to get it the other way around, to practically celebrate (*ahem* "objectively analyze") that fascists were tearing away the illusion of democracy in the hopes that the proletariat would realize their class interests in the face of a naked dictatorship of capital and fall in behind the communists, the sentiment of not the actual quotation of "after hitler, our turn". they wound up in concentration camps for their foolishness and largely paid with their lives.

they were not, on the whole, particularly read to openly recognize this theoretical misstep (though the introduction of the popular front policy by the world's foremost socialist state makes clear that they had done so internally.), but equally they are not particularly keen to go through that again.
>>

 No.383220

>>377406
>Like the "communists" here who with defend CNN and TYT for no reason other then their inability to shake their liberalism
who? /itg/ pretty regularly shits on TYT and "liberal" gets used as an insult more often than "fascist" does
>>377505
Isn't third positionism just a synonym for outright fascism half the time? Either way, I think you're right considering every group that took the "National Socialist" label literally ended up being useful idiots for the pro-porky wing of their movement.
>>377580
Which makes sense, as the bourgeoisie in Latin America have almost always been subservient to foreigners. This position seems to make Latin American rightoids into some of the most rabid, sociopathic anticommunists
>>377698
I usually find your arguments about "eugenics" as the dominant ideology questionable, but I think this one makes sense to some degree.
>>377854
Wasn't Mussolini concerned with demography and genetics to some degree? He was less of a racist/eugenicist than Hitler but still focused on those things.
>>

 No.383226

>>377351
because fascism literally is capitalism except worse
>>

 No.383301

>>383219
This
That's basically the point of why oppose fascists much harder, the reason is the fact that if fascists were in power none of us would be allowed to live, liberals have to keep up appearances while killing communists is one of the main explicit objectives of fascists
Fascists kill communists regardless of whether they seriously pose a threat or not, sure you can argue that’s just the state bearing its fangs and its willing to kill you for being a red because reds pose a threat now, but regardless
>>

 No.383323

>>383219
I would argue that the Popular Front was an incorrect move and overreaction. The communist parties did far better in the Third Period and earlier, and correctly analysed the social democrats as fascists. In Germany the KPD was rapidly gaining strength and gained huge numbers of voters in the last German election in 1932 from the social democrats and other bourgeois parties. The nazis were losing strength and were put into power by a conspiracy to crush the KPD. The KPD did try to work with the social democrats who were antifascist, but given events like Blutmai and the Spartakus rising, there's not a single reason why the KPD should have trusted in a front with the social democrats and liberals. And the partisan movements in Europe in WW2 showed that only with communist leadership could the fascists be overthrown, in Albania, Yugoslavia etc.

In Spain, the liberal and social democratic parties should have been subjugated to the PCE during the civil war, not the other way around and not sharing power.
>>

 No.406369

its because 99% of socialists like larping as revolutionaries
modern communists don't concern themselves with "fascism" corporate liberalism is consolidating power as we speak and people here will cry about internet nazis
>>

 No.406389

>>377351
As bad as liberalism is, fascism is straight up genocidal. At least liberals have some compassion for those weaker than them.
>>

 No.406411

>>377351
optics
>>

 No.406427

>>377802
Any choice quotes?
>>

 No.406451

File: 1627444104183.jpg ( 89.22 KB , 512x557 , The absolute state.JPG )

>>406389
>Liberals have some compassion
>>

 No.406462

File: 1627444555521.jpg ( 7.15 KB , 250x225 , 1627378809859.jpg )

>Fascism
>Liberalism
<Different things.
>>

 No.406471

>>406451
She's right. Picking the wrong solution doesn't mean a lack of compassion.
>>

 No.406478

>>406471
Libs don’t give a fuck, numbnuts. They’ll just be nice and oblivious about their chauvinism and sociopathy.
>>

 No.406492

>>406487
Yes. Imagine thinking the crumbs redistributed back to you from your tax dollars is free money. Never mind that the bourgeois class uses government and our taxes as their personal piggy bank.
>>

 No.406496

>>

 No.406499

>>406494
Much like autism, chauvinism is a spectrum.
>>

 No.406506

>>406451
She's right. Picking the wrong solution doesn't mean a lack of compassion.
>>

 No.406507

File: 1627446201636.jpg ( 47.96 KB , 461x437 , human nature.jpg )

>>377553
Liberal capitalism is fascism but the violence has become fully embedded in the system so that you can't point to a figure like Hitler to blame for it and it's justified ideologically as natural and unavoidable.
>>

 No.406513

>>406504
Libs hate chauvinism with its top off.
Policy wise, it’s evident they are.
Take a look at people like vaush sometime. They defend the U.S. having a monopoly of power in international politics versus allowing for multipolarity.
>>

 No.406532

>>406524
No one here listens to agent Kochinski unless to hate watch him.
He’s a liberal to us.
>>

 No.406544

File: 1627447459660.jpg ( 112.07 KB , 1280x720 , maxresdefault.jpg )

>>377351
Socialism is the continuation of liberalism from historical materialist perspective. Fascism is closer to 17th century monarchism with literal slave labor made from "subhumans". And fascist have committed too many genocides against us that pathetic shilling like this would have any affect (or i hope so).
>>

 No.406567

File: 1627448012119.png ( 410.84 KB , 564x564 , 1627447240548.png )

>>406487
What really makes the two no different is that fact hat they are both systems of eugenics in which those deemed "fittest" to survive survive and the rest starve and die on the streets/get sent to the campos.

They are just two sides of the same coin.
>>

 No.406575

>>406544
>Socialism is the continuation of liberalism from historical materialist perspective.
No…
There’s a pretty definitive break with liberalism despite the utopian socialist expanding on some of its ethic.
If you’re not a utopian or socdem, it should be apparent the socialism of today is very different.
Fascist have plenty in common with modern liberalism, and not just its mode of production.
As people in this thread have already pointed out, you see a lot of the parallels through liberalisms imperialism.
>>

 No.406581

>>406575
>As people in this thread have already pointed out, you see a lot of the parallels
You can make the same argument about progressive values that both (classical) liberals and communist share. Freedom, equality and brotherhood are in the core of communism in a idealistic sense especially when we are referring to ultra left ancoms.
>>

 No.406606

>>406581
That varies and is highly contextual.
There’s no hard and fast rule about there being “ Freedom, equality and brotherhood”.
The parallels liberalism has with fascism, in contrast, are structural.
>>

 No.406617

Socialism is not liberalism, and the latter has more probably in common with fascism. In fact the aforementioned latter leads to fascism because of its own contradictions. Read Losurdo and also Bordiga.
>>

 No.407271

Theoretical for who? For us, nothing. For porky, getting leftists to hate somebody else (fascists) instead of porky has clear benefits.
>>

 No.407293

>>377351
For a party in power the calculus is different than for the discursive bubble of online discourse or tiny "antifa" groups going on adventurism sprees of trying to beat the shit out of FAGGOTs or whatever it is that they do. Basically antifascism as it currently exists is subsumed in the culture war, and the culture war is what happens when no one has the power and organization to actual decide economic questions, where liberalism is basically unquestioned and largely unchallenged (except by vaguely paleocon types like some Trumpists, and by "paleocon" I mean a very soft type of paleoconservatism that largely regards the market as unchallengeable).
Antifascism online and irl is basically because it's much harder to do anything else other than punch (and probably get the shit kicked out of you after) some dumbfuck proudboy or something. There's not the organization or will to do much more than that because that's much harder. So it's just part of the culture war malaise which is posturing for real power for the most part or a grifting mechanism.
Worse still are the adnauseum thread "is X fascist", or "was X fascism". It's sort of intellectual infotainment masturbation, which is fine enough but seems the be the vast majority of online theorizing. Probably because it's sadomasochistic and "sexy" in the same way people are obsessed with real crime documentaries.
>>

 No.407304

>>383220
>and "liberal" gets used as an insult more often than "fascist" does
as you would expect on a forum filled with radlibs
>>

 No.407305

>>377351
Most people don't become leftist because of meaningful change in economic beliefs, they just became more invested in anti-racism, trans-right, or other ID-pol issues.
>>

 No.407638

File: 1627504582745.jpg ( 850.68 KB , 1579x1242 , DCDAPYW.jpg )

>>

 No.407754

>>407638
Thank for volunteering as an example
>>

 No.407767

File: 1627508748370.png ( 81.91 KB , 898x725 , 1625165433622.png )

>>

 No.407789

>>407767
Which particular set of ID-pol mad you change your mind?

Unique IPs: 39

[Return][Catalog][Top][Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / overboard / sfw / alt / cytube] [ leftypol / b / WRK / hobby / tech / edu / ga / ent / music / 777 / posad / i / a / lgbt / R9K / dead ] [ meta ]
ReturnCatalogTopBottomHome