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File: 1626022585729.jpg ( 26.1 KB , 440x288 , trial.jpg )

 No.369730[Last 50 Posts]

So what's /leftypol/ consesus on Moscow Trials? Was it a farce? Or were they actually guilty? Was there a trotsko-fascist conspiracy? Are all the testimonies fake?
>>

 No.369734

Guilty
>>

 No.369751

>>369734
of what?
>>

 No.369764

>>369730
I don't give a fuck if they were actually guilty or not, Andrei Vyshinsky was absolutely based with his invective. Comedy gold.

What you get from Vyshinsky is how to turn words against people. Greatest prosecutor of all time.
>>

 No.369771

>>369764
>Andrei Vyshinsky was absolutely based with his invective
?
>>

 No.369838

In all likelihood some were guilty and some were innocent. During times of revolution, and even during peace, some innocent people get a bad deal. Anyone who incessantly harps on about innocents being swept up has neither the understanding required to properly engage in change nor the stomach.
>>

 No.369846

Read Grover Furr.
>>

 No.369946

>>369846
someone post the pdf
>>

 No.369958

Key things people should understand about the Moscow Trials
-Trotsky ordered his archive to be archived by United States at Harvard (a literal enemy of the Soviet Union that had invaded Soviet Union 22 years prior to his death)
-He asked for the Archive to remain closed for 40 years
-Only Trotskyites were allowed into his archive (Issac Deutscher and his Trotskys wife)
-When the archive finally opened both Getty and Broue found out the archive had been purged but purged imperfectly (they found the mail receipts of the items revoved proving Trotsky had contact with members he denied having contact with at the Dewey Commission)
-They found (in invisible ink) that he had setup the bloc that was the focal point of the 1936 trial. In fact, it's almost word for word what Sedov (his son) told Trotsky (compare the 2 pictures I post). That the bloc was organised encompassing the rights and stem-lominadze groups
-The retards Getty (liberal) and Broue (Trotskyite) said with no evidence that the bloc ended in 1932 before any terrorist activity could've happened
-In 2018 Alexsandr Fokin discovers during a renovation of prison walls evidence that the prisons became a hive of counter-revolutionary trotskyite activity into 1933 at least
https://www.leftvoice.org/left-oppositionists-in-a-russian-prison-introduction-to-three-documents/
The bloc was dismantled in 1934 with the arrest of Nikolaev who gave up all the conspirators which is why Getty and Broue tried to insist the bloc ended in 1932

The page Getty found basically invalidates the entire of the Dewey Commission (it was setup by fawning trots to clear Trotskys name. 2 of the people on the commission resigned because they considered Trotsky guilty)
It invalidates the dewey commission because the groups Sedov is confirming as having setup a bloc with the Trots are all groups Trotsky denied again and again having contact with at the Dewey Commission
>>

 No.369967

It was legitimate, there were indeed conspiracies against the USSR.
>>

 No.370561

Entirely fair and necessary. There was some torture sure, but given that the defendants were traitors to socialism they deserved every bit of torture they got
>>

 No.370578

Where can I read the court transcripts in English? I want to learn Russian but it's hard.
>>

 No.370602

>>370561
If they were tortured, how can we believe their testimony? You can get people to admit whatever you want if you torture them, even if they're innocent.
>>

 No.370617

>>369958
This. Imagine trots and anti-communists assuring everyone for 40 years that the Moscow trials were made up bullshit, and that the clandestine bloc was a paranoid invention of the politburo and then they discover first hand sources from their own guys indicating that it was real.
>>

 No.370621

>>370602
If torture “forced” them to confess, then they were men of weak constitutions who didn’t deserve their place in society. Recall tat Assange has been tortured far worse for years, and not once has his resolve broken
>>

 No.370763

>>370602

The torture narrative doesn't make sense. If the goal it to get rid of people and use a shiw trial to do so, trying extract false confessions out of HARDENED REVOLUTIONAIRIES WHO DEALT WITH THE TSARIST SECURITY POLICE is am extremely inefficient and costly way to do so. Especially when you need each person to cortobte what the others say at least roughly.

Much easier would be to fabricate evidence and ignore testimony, especially for a large government.
>>

 No.370768

>>370602

Addendum: If you just wanted them dead and gone assasination would be even more efficient.
>>

 No.371437

>>369730
Guilty
>>

 No.371608

>>369730
They sadly missed Khrushchev
>>

 No.371609

Even Trotsky at the time of the trial did not deny that Kamenev and Zinoviev (and the rest) were guilty. His objection was that somehow Stalin made a deal with them so they would implicate Trotsky on a trial for leniency in sentence. Of course, given that they were sentenced to death and on further trials people like Radek and Bukharin implicated Trotsky too, that version goes down the drain.
>>

 No.371610

>>369838
>I would have been one of the fat little nobleman who didn't get liquidated, therefore idc.

Every communist believes this.
>>

 No.371613

Who gives a shit? Seriously, why the fuck do you care? Stalin, no matter if it was show trials or real trials, would still be the same guy whose real acomplishments and failures were all at a way higher level than internal purges. Did he halp create USSR via his economic strategy, that was the best one proposed out of all the 20's factions? Yes. Did he cuck out like a bitch to the West? Also yes. Judge him on that, and not on wheter he purged some old bolsheviks or not.
>>

 No.371615

>>370602
This is just bullshit sputed by people who don't know anything about trial nor about court procedures. First of all, the trial was not built on testimonies, but on evidece. Second, in the court were present many journalists and lawyers from other countries, people like Joseph Davies, a very successfull lawyer and ambasador of the fuking USA, people like Pritt, a lawyer and rightwinger from Labour party. None of those people had sympathies to commies and both were trained lawyers, i doubt they would miss the fact that the defendands were tortured or forced to confess. Imagine staging a big play where actors are untrained and are forced to play their roles under a threat…i dunno, since if they were found guilty they would be put to death, so under a threat of whatever ass pull you wanted it to be and this play will go live under the eyes of experienced lawyers and foreign press. Saying this is improbable is understatement.
>>

 No.371625

>>370617
Trots are not trots because they read a lot, so probably it would just be ignored and they will continue to regurgitate western liberal and fascist propaganda
>>

 No.371631

>>371610

Nah, I'm not so delusional.
>>

 No.371765

>>370621
>If you are put through unimaginable pain u don't deserve a place in
>society
I guess workers should just shut up and take their punishment yeah? Glow harder
>>

 No.371866

File: 1626089765659-0.png ( 625.8 KB , 1306x894 , Moscow Trials - 1936 - Smi….png )

File: 1626089765659-1.png ( 302.67 KB , 649x863 , Moscow Trials - 1936 - Smi….png )

File: 1626089765659-2.png ( 548.46 KB , 1238x899 , Moscow Trials - 1936 - Smi….png )

File: 1626089765659-3.png ( 887.62 KB , 1084x815 , Moscow Trials - 1938 - Buk….png )

File: 1626089765659-4.png ( 899.99 KB , 1088x814 , Moscow Trials - Bukharin d….png )

On the allegations of torture

<“With an interpreter at my side, I followed the testimony carefully. Naturally I must confess that I was predisposed against the credibility of the testimony of these defendants… Viewed objectively, however, and based upon my experience in the trial of cases and the application of the tests of credibility which past experience had afforded me, I arrived at the reluctant conclusion that the state had established its case, at least to the extent of proving the existence of a widespread conspiracy and plot among the political leaders against the Soviet government, and which under their statutes established the crimes set forth in the indictment…

<I am still impressed with the many indications of credibility which obtained in the course of the testimony.
<To have assumed that this proceeding was invented and staged as a project of dramatic political fiction would be to presuppose the creative genius of a Shakespeare and the genius of a Belasco in stage production. The historical background and surrounding circumstances also lend credibility to the testimony.
<The reasoning which Sokolnikov and Radek applied in justification of their various activities and their hoped-for results were consistent with probability and entirely plausible. The circumstantial detail… brought out by the various accused, gave unintended corroboration to the gist of the charges.”
(Joseph Davies, Mission to Moscow)

<Very soon after the first trial, Zinoviev and his associates were executed. It has been asserted that they had been promised lenient treatment if they would for their part publicly accuse Trotsky of having conspired with them to overthrow Stalin and the Soviet government. In truth, it was largely upon this supposition that rested the contention that the first trial was a “frameup”. But now that the men were put to death Trotsky and his adherents declared that they, the defendants, had been “double-crossed”. To the Trotskyites this was further proof of their contention that the first trial had been “framed”. To the disinterested student, however, it might be just as easily have proved the contrary. After all, it is one of the simplest rules of logic that one cannot use a premise to prove a thesis and then use the denial of that premise to prove the same thesis. Logically, therefore, one should have looked elsewhere for an explanation of the executions, and the only other possible explanation was that the men were actually put to death in the regular course of justice and for the single reason that they were guilty of the crimes charges against them. Still it was possible, despite the rise of this counter-doubt, that they have been “double-crossed”.

<Now we have come to the second trial. What is the situation? the men now on trial cannot possibly be under any delusion as to their fate. They must know and they do know that they will be put to death. Despite this they do not hesitate to confess their crimes. Why? The only conceivable answer is that they are guilty. Surely it cannot and will not be argued this time as well that there has been a “deal”, for men like Radek are obviously not so stupid as to believe that they are going to save their lives in that manner after what happened to Kamenev and Zinoviev. It has been said that they have been tortured into confessing. But what greater and more effective torture can there be than knowledge of certain death? In any case, the men in the courtroom have been shown not the slightest evidence of having been tortured or of being under duress. It is said by some that they have been hypnotized into confessing, or that the prosecution, working upon its knowledge of Slav psychology, has somehow trapped these men into confessing deeds of which they are not guilty. For example, the unamity with which the men have been confessing is taken as proof that the confessions are false and have been obtained by some mysterious means. Yet these assertions rest upon no tangible or logical proof whatever. the idea that some inexplicable form of oriental mesmerism has been used is one that sound reason must reject as utterly fantastic. The very unamity of the defendants, far from proving that this trial is also a “frame-up”, appears to me to prove directly the contrary. For if these men are innocent, then certainly at least one of the three dozen, knowing that he faced death in any case, would have blurted out the truth. It is inconceivable that out of this great number of defendants, all should lie when lies would not do one of them any good. But why look beyond the obvious for the truth, why seek in mysticism or in dark magic for facts that are before one’s very nose? Why not accept the plain fact that the men are guilty? And this fact, if accepted with regard to the men now on trial, must also be accepted with regard to the men who were executed after the first trial.
-Why I Resigned From the Trotsky defense Committee, by Mauritz A. Hallgren (pdf at >>369958)

<“The defendants admitted frankly that they resorted to individual terror as a last resort, fully knowing that disaffection in the country now is not sufficiently strong to bring them into power in any other way… It is futile to think the trial was staged and the charges trumped up. The Government’s case against the defendants is genuine.”

–The Observer, August 23

The allegations of torture are somewhat bizarre too. I can fully well imagine a situation where the NKVD beat them black and blue in a basement then have them come out into court and meekly go "yes, I'm a counter revolutionary." in front of the worlds press and countries ambassadors
But instead they came out saying the kind of shit that is attached.
Kamenev only admitted guilt to something once Reingold had testified against him (attached)
Smirnov tried to twist and turn the entire proceeding. He says on p80-81 he was a member of the terrorist centre. Then only a few minutes later says "actually I was a not a member of the bloc" after already agreeing he had passed on messages and that he understood the bloc was based on terrorism (attached)
Bukharin only admitted to nothing… And the prosecution baited him the entire time by getting him to deny something only to present evidence against him on a certain point later which he was then forced to admit to it. What's more even in his last plea he denied involvement of the terrorist attacks against the multiple Soviet leaders who were murdered by the terrorists (Kirov, Menzhinsky, Kuibyshev, Gorky and Peshkov) and he denied involvement of espionage for foreign intelligence services (attached)
He was already going to be shot for what he admitted to. So if the confessions are forced why deny the 2nd set of allegations? And if he's innocent of what he denied involvement of…Why confess to wanting to overthrow the soviet leadership?

If these confessions are forced as Joseph Davies says, they would require "creative genius of a Shakespeare and the genius of a Belasco in stage production".
It's one thing to fabricate a court case by having them all come up front for 5 minutes and go "yes im guilty". It's another to have a dialague with them lasting weeks whilst the trials were open to the worlds press and ambassadors
The anticommunists have to twist themselves into pretzels to assert they were innocent and for some reason they decided to confess their innocence knowing they'd be facing a firing squad afterward

What's generally more bizarre about the trials as well is that… Trotsky was publicly calling for this shit.
In Revolution Betrayed (1936…as the first trial happens) he basically outlines the "red-brown" shit communists are stuck with today and calls for the overthrow of the Soviet leadership.
<This saving fear is nourished and supported by the illegal party of Bolshevik-Leninists, which is the most conscious expression of the socialist tendencies opposing that bourgeois reaction with which the Thermidorian bureaucracy is completely saturated. As a conscious political force the bureaucracy has betrayed the revolution. But a victorious revolution is fortunately not only a program and a banner, not only political institutions, but also a system of social relations. To betray it is not enough. You have to overthrow it. The October revolution has been betrayed by the ruling stratum, but not yet overthrown.
-Trotsky, Revolution Betrayed

But somehow the Trotskyites attempt to convince everyone that they weren't actually trying to overthrow the Soviet leadership.
After they had been completely destroyed at the 1927 congress and lost all political power where their ideas were completely rejected - where the Left Opposition was only able to get 4000 votes whilst the CC was able to get 724,000 votes.
>>

 No.371878

>>369730
>Was there a trotsko-fascist conspiracy?
Yes.
>>

 No.371881

File: 1626090960197.jpg ( 61.8 KB , 400x400 , kk.jpg )

>>370763
>HARDENED REVOLUTIONAIRIES WHO DEALT WITH THE TSARIST SECURITY POLICE
>Zinoview Kamenev and fucking Bukharin
>hardened revolutionaries
LMAO
Your speculations mean nothing, if there was documented torture, then the whole trial falls apart.
Appeals to character and moral qualities of the accused are not gonna cut it, mltard. This is not ancient roman court anymore.
>>

 No.371967

>>371866
>What's generally more bizarre about the trials as well is that… Trotsky was publicly calling for this shit. In Revolution Betrayed (1936…as the first trial happens) he basically outlines the "red-brown" shit communists are stuck with today and calls for the overthrow of the Soviet leadership.
I want you to read and reread that passage until you understand it. Please try to have basic reading comprehension next time.
>>

 No.371994

>>371967
I understand it perfectly well. It's the same retarded trot shit the Trots spread about every single movement. That if only the "stalinist bureaucrats" are put out the way then "real socialism"(TM) can flourish.
It supposes a movement and revolutionary consciousness that doesn't exist or is in a wave of retreat in favour of idealism - the movement as we would like it to be

I put it in the same retarded category as Trotsky writing in 1939 for an independent Ukraine: https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1939/07/ukraine.htm
where the independent forces would be signing up to Hitlers SS and participating in the holocaust only 3 years later whilst the pro communist forces were pro Soviet and pro Stalin

The idea the
"Overthrowing the ruling stratum" would've led to the same retarded shit the Trot rats promised about Libya in 2011

Instead of "dictator ghadaffi" being removed and now a "real revolutionary"(TM) movement rising instead Libya turned into a basketcase with slave markets

Had the trot rats won and managed to kill the leaders they wanted to I think its much more likely that fascistic/white guardist and ex-monopolists and titans of industry would've used that moment to return to power, smashing the Soviet Union into a million pieces like 1989 and the Nazis get to realise General Plan Ost and we now talk about the Slavic people the same way we talk about the natives of US/Canada and Aus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
>>

 No.372023

>>371994
<This saving fear is nourished and supported by the illegal party of Bolshevik-Leninists, which is the most conscious expression of the socialist tendencies opposing that bourgeois reaction with which the Thermidorian bureaucracy is completely saturated. As a conscious political force the bureaucracy has betrayed the revolution. But a victorious revolution is fortunately not only a program and a banner, not only political institutions, but also a system of social relations. To betray it is not enough. You have to overthrow it. The October revolution has been betrayed by the ruling stratum, but not yet overthrown.
-Trotsky, Revolution Betrayed
Read this passage again and tell me, in your own words, what you think trotsky is saying here.
>>

 No.372029

>>371994
So you disagree with trots like Mandel that USSR needed political revolution? When Gorby literally pushed the button "end sociaism" with his law about enterprise?
>>

 No.372043

>>372023
I dont give a shit about his honeyed words and his incessant jibbering, he could say whatever he wanted to and it wouldn't change what he was: a snake and a traitor. A saboteur who ultimately got his wish, when one of his agents started the USSR on the path towards destruction. He desired the elimination of socialism and the death of the Slavic race, all because he was butthurt that he didn't get absolute control, that the people loved Stalin more than him. So whatever he has to say means jack shit.
>>

 No.372052

>>372043
Please tell me what you think the passage you cited says.
>>

 No.372061

>>372023
I get what you're saying so here's the passage where he calls for the overthrow of the Soviet Union
<Stalinism and fascism, in spite of a deep difference in social foundations, are symmetrical phenomena. Inmany of their features they show a deadly similarity. A victorious revolutionary movement in Europewould immediately shake not only fascism, but Soviet Bonapartism.
Trotsky, Revolution Betrayed
>>

 No.372064

>>372061
>I get what you're saying so here's the passage where he calls for the overthrow of the Soviet Union
Well do explain, what is it that you think I am saying, and what in your own words do you think the passage you just cited is saying?
>>

 No.372065

<But if a socialist government is still absolutely necessary for the preservation and development of the planned economy, the question is all the more important, upon whom the present Soviet government relies, and in what measure the socialist character of its policy is guaranteed. At the 11th Party Congress in March 1922, Lenin, in practically bidding farewell to the party, addressed these words to the commanding group: “History knows transformations of all sorts. To rely upon conviction, devotion and other excellent spiritual qualities – that is not to be taken seriously in politics.” Being determines consciousness. During the last fifteen years, the government has changed its social composition even more deeply than its ideas. Since of all the strata of Soviet society the bureaucracy has best solved its own social problem, and is fully content with the existing situation, it has ceased to offer any subjective guarantee whatever of the socialist direction of its policy. It continues to preserve state property only to the extent that it fears the proletariat. This saving fear is nourished and supported by the illegal party of Bolshevik-Leninists, which is the most conscious expression of the socialist tendencies opposing that bourgeois reaction with which the Thermidorian bureaucracy is completely saturated. As a conscious political force the bureaucracy has betrayed the revolution. But a victorious revolution is fortunately not only a program and a banner, not only political institutions, but also a system of social relations. To betray it is not enough. You have to overthrow it. The October revolution has been betrayed by the ruling stratum, but not yet overthrown. It has a great power of resistance, coinciding with the established property relations, with the living force of the proletariat, the consciousness of its best elements, the impasse of world capitalism, and the inevitability of world revolution.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch09.htm
>>

 No.372072

>>372065
This makes perfect sense.
>>

 No.372074

>>372052
Again, dont give a shit about what he says, he can say whatever the fuck he wants and it doesn't change anything. He's evil incarnate, the singular reason the USSR isn't still around today. He has ruined the lives of millions and is responsible for the slaughter of millions more, and I hope he burns forever in the deepest pits of hell and all his disciples join him.
>>

 No.372076

>>369730
They were complete bullshit no matter how many doctored NKVD sources are brought up. BTW Stalin caused the holocaust & WWII with social fascism. Retarded Stalinoids will be rendered to the dustbin of history and Stalin's legacy will be that he was a paranoid retard who murdered a bunch of Communists because he was a reactionary. Good thing that most realworld socialists either barely pay tribute to him or outright denounce him. StalinKEKs will never lead a revolution.
>>

 No.372079

>>372074
Okay now that you, a guy sitting at his computer in the year 2021, have gotten out all your vitriol against the russian icepick man from a hundred years ago, tell me in your own words what you think the passage you cited is saying.
>>

 No.372081

File: 1626099040387.png ( 105.16 KB , 498x468 , interdasting.png )

>>372065
damn, the old Trot was right, you know
tho he had no answers, he asked the right questions
>>

 No.372085

>>372074
>He's evil incarnate, the singular reason the USSR isn't still around today.
Pure ideology.
>>

 No.372089

>>372081
Tbh, in retrospect the only workable solution was doing deep cover entryism in the bureaucracy like Gorby did, but from the left. You rise to the top being an entirely ordinary bureaucrat and then set about making reforms culminating is a cultural revolution style mass movement against the party structure but not cucking out halfway like mao did, and trying to not to get killed in the process. But that kind of blanquism/personal leadership is pretty unmarxist and can't exactly be suggested as official strategy. Probably the only thing that would've worked though with how entrenched everything was post-1927 or so. Alas crisis in the kremlin is the only place it can be done lol.
>>

 No.372110

>>372081
Tho I disagree with Trotsky that bureaucracy has abandoned socialist project as early 30s, Trotsky personal bias shows there. Top levels, ie Stalin etc still had necessary devotion to the cause so they kept the whole machine kinda in check. But this is obviously not a sustainable model at all.
>>

 No.372118

>>372079
I already told you that I dont care and it doesn't matter. All you trots can do is misdirect and argue semantics, nothing of substance.

>>372085
>>372081
>>372110
Trotsky apologia should be a bannable offense
>>

 No.372119

>>372089
>Alas crisis in the kremlin is the only place it can be done lol.
The major weakness of all aristocratic systems is the transition of power and "under the carpet" struggle between different cliques. That transition of power moment and corresponding struggle is when aristocratic system is at its weakest. If popular movement can seize this midstream moment there could be much damage done to the aristocracy.
>>

 No.372133

>>372029
>So you disagree with trots like Mandel that USSR needed political revolution? When Gorby literally pushed the button "end sociaism" with his law about enterprise?
Ernest Mandel was a trotskyite… Why would I agree on anything he has to say?
The uncomfortable truth is revolutions and revolutionary movements come in waves not platforms that you climb up and happily sit there forever content and the idea that the Trotskyites would've lasted a day if they had simply "changed leadership" is so ridiculous Trotsky himself stated not much would've changed even if he were in charge

The truth is a campaign of anti-bureaucracy occured in Soviet Union under Stalin where the CC tried to inspire the lower party masses against the bureaucracy
This campaign largely failed and Stalin again tried to combat this with the struggle for democracy and the Stalin consitution of 1936 where Stalin was defeated by the party in implementing it. Furr has a brilliant article on this
http://marxism.halkcephesi.net/Grover%20Furr/stalin_1.htm
Stalin had pushed the Party as far to the left as the revolutionary wave had allowed. The coming 1940s and ww2 destroyed the best communists in the Soviet Union who were the first to die against the fascists leaving the cadre pool of the Soviet Union depleted

By 1947 Voznosensky, a revisionist economist, was already gaining such popularity even Pravda were praising his economics.
Stalin counter-attacked with Economic Problems In the Ussr 4 years later.
So even by 1947, at the height of Soviet prestige, the Marxist-Leninists were already on the backfoot in combatting revisionism in the party and Soviet society.

<In 1947 there was published a book by Voznosensky entitled "The War Economy of the USSR during the period of the Patriotic War", a feature of which was the author's claim that the distribution of labour between the different branches of the Soviet economy "was" (meaning "should be") determined by the "law of value" (meaning the profitability of individual enterprises and industries). Voznosensky therefore demanded that the prices of commodities should be "market prices", based on their values or "prices of production" (the latter term being defined by Marx, in his analysis of capitalist economy, as cost of production plus an average profit). He therefore emphasised the need to enhance the role of "cost accounting" (accounting based on the profitability of individual enterprises and industries) in the organisation of production, together with that of economic incentives in the form of bonuses to the personnel of enterprises:

<"The most elementary law governing the costs of production and distribution of goods is the law of value……In Socialist economy the law of value signifies the need to calculate and plan in terms……of money the cost of production….The state plan in the Soviet economic system makes use of the law of value to set the necessary proportions in the production and distribution of social labour and the social product….The law of value operates not only in production, but also in the exchange of products….Prices…..in socialist economy too are nothing but the monetary expression of the value of the product, or its cost of production and, in the final analysis, of the quantity of socially necessary labour expended on its production….The law of value operates…..also in the distribution of labour itself among the various branches of the Soviet Union's national economy…..The following distinguishing features must be noted as regards the planning and organisation of production at Soviet industrial enterprises during the war economy period…strict cost accounting, profit and loss accounting, and reduction of the costs of production. A highly important lever making for increased production is the creating, through a system of premiums (bonuses – WBB) of a personal incentive to raising output….Scientific socialism…does not deny the significance in Socialist economy of the law of value, market prices, and profit and loss accounting….
<As for profit and loss accounting in Soviet economy, not only does it not run counter to the Socialist system of economy, but serves as a substantial stimulus to the development of Socialist production, inasmuch as it contributes to growth of profits".
(N. Voznosensky: "War Economy of the USSR in the Period of the Patriotic War"; Moscow; 1948; p. 116, 117, 118, 121, 138, 139).
Roy Medvedev testifies to the "popularity" of Voznosensky's book among a section of Soviet economists;
<"Voznosensky's book….soon became popular amongst economists. Some of its these began to be cited on the same level as theses from Stalin".
(R. Medvedev: "Let History Judge"; London; 1972; p. 482).
<Stalin's strong objections to Voznosensky's economic theses were made public only more than four years' later, in 1952 – the significance of the delay will be discussed below – in his "Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR", a significant part of which was devoted to a refutation of these theses (though without naming Voznosensky as their author):
"It is sometimes asked whether the law of value exists and operates in our country, under the socialist system. Yes, it does exist and does operate. Wherever commodities and commodity production exist, there the law of value must also exist…Does this mean that….the law of value…is the regulator of production in our country…? No it does not. Actually, the sphere of operation of the law of value under our economic system is strictly limited and placed within definite bounds….Totally incorrect, too, is the assertion that under our present economic system…the law of value regulates the 'proportions' of labour distributed among the various branches of production.

<If this were true, it would be incomprehensible why our light industries, which are the most profitable, are not being developed at the utmost, and why preference is given to our heavy industries, which are often less profitable, and sometimes altogether unprofitable.


<If this were true, it would be incomprehensible why a number of our heavy industry plants which are still unprofitable…are not closed down, and why no light industry plants, which would certainly be profitable…are not opened.


<If this were true, it would be incomprehensible why workers are not transferred from plants that are less profitable, but necessary to our national economy, to plants which are more profitable – in accordance with the law of value, which supposedly regulates the 'proportions' of labour distributed among the branches of production…


<The law of value can be a regulator of production only under capitalism,….


<If profitableness is considered not from the standpoint of individual plants or industries, and not over a period of one year, but from the stand point of the entire national economy and over a period of, say, ten or fifteen years, which is the only correct approach to the question, then the temporary and unstable profitableness of some plants or industries is beneath all comparison with that higher form of stable and permanent profitableness which we get from the operation of the law of balanced development of the national economy and from economic planning".

(J. V. Stalin: "Economic Problems of the USSR"; Moscow; 1952; p. 23, 25, 27-9).
Restoration of capitalism in the USSR, William Bland http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/book/ussrleningrad.html

>>372089
Agree. I think a similar thing has happened in China with the rise of Xi and some of the purging of the liberals and neoliberals of the CPC.
Although Xi has not made in huge moves or steps toward actual Marxism he has increased the education of Marxism and reintroduced ideology a small bit into Chinese public life but these are tentative baby steps and I think overall he's more focused on the long game against US imperialism rather than attempting to change Chinas economy to a fully centralised planned economy overnight which would ensure the US would go to war with them
But the idea that the Chinese population, as it stands right now, is in any way revolutionary or wanting of a communist revolution and the massive upheaval that brings is a joke and if the people that advocate that (like the trots) got their way in China China would look like one of those balkanised maps the anti-sino fantasists share all over the internet
>>

 No.372147

>>372133
You agree with me and yet I'm actually a trot, one of those who you're so vociferously denouncing in every post. Maybe reconsider your priors. Your attitude to political discourse is idealist and unmarxist.
>>

 No.372169

>>372029
>When Gorby literally pushed the button "end sociaism" with his law about enterprise?
Under the same slogans that Trotsky wanted to overthrows "stalininsts" mind you. Soviet block in 90s is what trots victory looks like.
>>

 No.372175

>>372118
I'm not a trot apologist, in fact I wish he'd gotten icepick'd 20 years earlier, but blaming him personally for everything wrong with the USSR is pure ideology and immaterial. Read Marx.
>>

 No.372180

>>372147
Learning from history that all trots are either uneducated useful idiots or fucking snakes is definitely marxist and materialist. This thread alone make you show your true colors. You have shitload of actual undeniable evidence that Trotsky was a fucking terrorist working against socialist state that has imminent capitalist invasion and you either ignore it ot trying to push "stalin bad" shit that only has support in lies of your cult leader or liberal/fascist propaganda. You can suck my dick, you are not communists and never will be. And you probably know that yourself.
>>

 No.372215

>>372169
>Soviet block in 90s is what trots victory looks like.
Wew, so it's trots fault that fucking gensec of the CPSU undermined soviet union? The same trots like Mandel who was advocating for getting CPSU out of power?
Trots are your Big Other, every mistake YOU made - you have a convenient scapegoat in trots who are fucking irrelevant
>>

 No.372226

>>372215
Communism is without flaws, the mistakes in the Soviet Union come from people failing socialism (ie submitting to Trotskyite revisonism), not socialism failing the people
>>

 No.372248

>>372215
>Wew, so it's trots fault that fucking gensec of the CPSU undermined soviet union?
Yes. Read what Yakovlev wrote in Black Book of Communism. Not all of you were purged apparentely.
>The same trots like Mandel who was advocating for getting CPSU out of power?
And you did, congrats. The only difference was that in 90s we didn't have fascist invasion incoming. But i hope you still like your work, faggots.
>Trots are your Big Other, every mistake YOU made - you have a convenient scapegoat in trots who are fucking irrelevant
Nah, it is just a tool of porkies, are you gonna deny that useful idiots like that or traitors withing your enemy camp is ineffective tactics or something? "Trots" is just a convenient nickname. A well deserved ones, i must say.
>>

 No.372730

>>372248
>Yakovlev
literallywho

>And you did, congrats.

Lmao, scapegoating much? Maybe if there was an actual political revolution in the USSR as Mandel hoped, before Gorby came on top, maybe, just maybe USSR would still be around? And maybe imagine, just fucking maybe, if this revolution happened before the infamous Khruschev report that split the communist movement, huh? But we have what we have and history set in stone because someone was too busy fellating Lenin's corpse in the mausoleum, someone was afraid of the "uneducated" masses, was afraid they would be fooled into undoing the gains of the revolution. Oh the fucking irony!

Not trots, it were people like YOU who were the gravediggers of the revolution.
>>

 No.372811

>>372730
Kruschev was a literal trotskyite though so you can't put that on us either
< “‘In 1923,’, Khrushchev said in his memoirs, ‘when I was studying at the workers’ training program, I was guilty of Trotskyite wavering… I was distracted by Kharechko, who was a rather well-known Trotskyite… I didn’t stop to analyze various tendencies in the … party; all I knew was this was a man who had fought for the people before the revolution, fought for workers and peasants.’

<“Trofim Kharechko was a prominent Bolshevik who had signed the Declaration of Forty-six. Since the issue of internal part democracy (or rather the lack thereof) was hotly contested, Khrushchev must have known what he was doing. He certainly couldn’t admit that while Stalin lived, however, and he never did afterwards either.


Taubman, William. Khrushchev : The Man and His Era, The Free Press, Simon & Schuster 2003. Page 57.
>>

 No.372851

>>372811
>Kruschev was a literal trotskyite though
Are these "trotskysts" in a room with us?
Seriously mate, this is getting ridiculous, I've seen tanks accusing Khruschev of being bukharinite, burgeois opportunist, and now he is apparently a trot. Just wew, what trot policies did he implement then?
>>

 No.373042

>>371615
>Second, in the court were present many journalists and lawyers from other countries, people like Joseph Davies
>None of those people had sympathies to commies
<While Davies' predecessor, William Christian Bullitt, Jr. had been an admirer of the Soviet Union who gradually came to loathe Stalin's brutality and repression, Davies remained unaffected[6][citation needed] by reports of the disappearance of thousands of Russians and foreigners in the Soviet Union throughout his stay as U.S. Ambassador. His reports from the Soviet Union were pragmatic, optimistic, and usually devoid of criticism of Stalin and his policies. While he briefly noted the USSR's 'authoritarian' form of government, Davies praised the nation's boundless natural resources and the contentment of Soviet workers while 'building socialism'.[7] He went on numerous tours of the country, carefully prearranged by Soviet officials. In one of his final memos from Moscow to Washington D.C., Davies assessed:
<"Communism holds no serious threat to the United States. Friendly relations in the future may be of great general value."[8]
<Davies even claimed that communism was "protecting the Christian world of free men", and he urged all Christians "by the faith you have found at your mother's knee, in the name of the faith you have found in temples of worship" to embrace the Soviet Union.[12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_E._Davies
>>

 No.373078

>>373042
thanks for providing an article to show everything you respond to as even acknowledged by wikipedia
>>

 No.373140

>>372811
Damn, Khruschev looked up to a guy who signed the declaration of the 46? The declaration that is clearly a sign of being a trotskyite traitor, the declaration that definitely wasn't entirely correct in its warnings about the direction of the party? Wow, sounds like he was based.
>>

 No.373155

>>373140
>i'm a trotskyite
yes, we know
>>

 No.374286

>>372730
>literallywho
Read, uygha, read
>And maybe imagine, just fucking maybe, if this revolution happened before the infamous Khruschev report that split the communist movement, huh?
I don't have to imagine. It literally happened. Khruschev took the power with military coup, you uneducated faggot. Exactly what you wanted, right, liberal?

>Not trots, it were people like YOU who were the gravediggers of the revolution.

Like i said, either a useful idiot or a snake. In practice the difference is negligible.

>>372811
>Kruschev was a literal trotskyite though so you can't put that on us either
Trots don't really do any reading or studying of history so it's probably gonna fall on deaf ears. After all they continue to ignore all the evidence of Trotsky's guilt and trials being legit and continue peddling asinine "muh torture" narrative
>>

 No.374287

>>372851
>I've seen tanks accusing Khruschev of being bukharinite, burgeois opportunist, and now he is apparently a trot
Same shit as history showed us. They worked together.
>>

 No.374291

>>373042
Yeah, most of this info comes from "memoirs" of unaffilliated people decades later, in the midst of cold war when they had to push the narrative of trials being show trials.

>His opinions were at odds with much of the Western press of the day, as well as those of his own staff, many of whom had been in the country far longer than Davies

> Charles E. Bohlen (1973) Witness to History, New York: Norton
For some reason they didn't expres this opinion at the time and had to wait several decades to do so. I guess they were afraid of being purged by communist who as we know took power in 30s in USA.

You are a joke.
>>

 No.374326

>>374287
They are the same shit, it's all synonyms and can be used interchangeably. Just like leninism is an extension of marxism, and stalinism of leninism, and mao zedong thought of stalinism, this is the same kind of heredity/branching outs, but they all represent the same thing - a political tendency in the working class party (or without it, but in discussions around one). While ML-Stalin-Mao-Deng-Xi are "centrist", they represent the party line by the virtue of those ideologies being built atop the party line, trotskyisms are an opposition to party line, it's ultraleftism taking all kinds of shapes, but strictly following the capitalist road. In the end, this opposition to the party line from the left inevitably leads to trotskyists allying with rightists inside the party, foreign imperialists and fascists, because their interests always align so conveniently. Hence, it's also called opportunism.
>>

 No.374330

>>374326
Oh, and also. Party line is the result of democratic centralism, the result of democratic debate, thus opposing the party line in the name of "party democracy", or whatever, means you are undemocratic. Sorry, but the trotskyists were the true authoritarians all along, and various memoirs actually say as much with portraying Trotsky as super-bureaucratic and confrontational and cultish.
>>

 No.374346

The trials were a sham meant for international consumption. The people "convicted" in them were already condemned and the regime just wanted to extract some propaganda value from them before eliminating them. I’m sure a lot of them were innocent, but the Soviet bureaucracy of the period was more interested in security than justice.
>>

 No.374367

Commies only seethe about the trials because they're worried they might be a victim of their own policies. But, why should anyone care? You're willing to throw away lives for your utopian social goals, but you get shook when its your turn to die.
>>

 No.374389

>>373042
<A desperate paragraph of uncited accusations made decades after the fact trying to paint Davies as a crypto communist sympathiser
<Let's check rest of his wiki page

>Davies’ most famous law case was when he defended former Ford Motor Company stockholders against a $30,000,000 suit the US Treasury Department brought against them for back taxes. Davies proved his clients did not owe the government anything but that his clients were to receive a $3,600,000 refund. The case—which took three years to litigate (from 1924 to 1927)—brought him the largest fee in the history of the D.C. bar, $2,000,000.

>Davies represented politicians, labor leaders and minority groups but his specialty was as an antitrust attorney. His corporate clients included Seagrams, National Dairy, Copley Publishing, Anglo-Swiss, Nestle, Fox Films and many others. In 1937 his law firm was: Davies, Richberg, Beebe, Busick and Richardson, in DC.
Here's your crypto communist. A corporate lawyer for some of the biggest multi-national conglomerates
>>

 No.374421

>>374326
>They are the same shit
In essense, yes. Deng and Xi are of the same ilk though.
>>

 No.374509

It was a way for Stalin to physically eliminate his former opponents. It is really strange to me he went this way. He has defeated all of them by 1932-34 so it's a bit ridiculous that in 36 he decides to humiliate and murder them.
>>

 No.374516

>>371866
overthrowing the bueraucratic leadership under Stalin made up of spineless amebas would have been a good thing

it is only dumb why the terrorists would kill Kirov et al instead of directly killing Stalin or storming in with some loyal armed guys and arrest him
>>

 No.374517

>>374389
You don't need to be a "crypto communist" to favour closer relations with the USSR. Many in the West (including Roosevelt) wanted to improve relations with the Soviets as a means to counter Germany.
>>

 No.374521

>>374516
>nstead of directly killing Stalin
They actually planned to kill Stalin too. They just didn't succeed. They wanted to behead all soviet leadership and replace them. People like Voroshilov, Zhdanov, Ordzhonikidze, Kaganovich and toher big figures were on the list too.
>>

 No.374523

>>374521
good; these amebas would never see an inside of a soviet governmental building if not for Stalin's preference to have incopetent lackeys around him
>>

 No.374524

>>374509
If he just wanted to eliminate them, all he needed is to exclude them from the party, which he could do with many of them (like Kamenev and Zinoviev) already in '27. From the strategic point, fake trial over already defeated opponents made no sense, so perhpas the conclusion should be that the trial was no fake, no?
>>

 No.374526

>>374523
I would think that the incopetents would be the ones who failed to achieve the goal even with full support from capitalists states. Seethe, trot. Your pathetic colonel Sander impersonator was the biggest looser of them all.
>>

 No.374535

>>374526
not a trot not a stalinist, but still a bolshevik

also, kamenev an zinoviev got hit by the boomerang they threw after Lenin's death, it's kind of a satisfying ending to their pathetic political actions since 1917 when they attacked Lenin and the party for deciding to go through with the revolution before the first all-russian congress of soviets
>>

 No.374537

>>374535
>not a trot not a stalinist, but still a bolshevik
Trot pretending to be someone else. Always funny.
>>

 No.374539

File: 1626180270630-0.jpg ( 173.4 KB , 960x1280 , iain grey page 215 stalin.jpg )

>>374509
>It was a way for Stalin to physically eliminate his former opponents. It is really strange to me he went this way. He has defeated all of them by 1932-34 so it's a bit ridiculous that in 36 he decides to humiliate and murder them.
Strange that isn't it.
Trotsky and Zinoviev were defeated by 1927
Kamenev and zinoviev were convicted in the 1935 trial to 5 and 10 year prison sentences for moral complicity and encouragement of the assassination of Kirov in 1934

Why then sentence them to death to "eliminate his opponents" (who had already been destroyed at the 15th party congress of 1927) a year later?
At great detriment to Soviet foreign policy in trying to establish an anti-nazi pact with British and French who were all to eager to repeat Trotskys lies that they were frame ups?

Could it be….That they were actually guilty of assassinating the soviet leaders Kirov, Menzhinsky, Kuibyshev, Gorky and Peshkov and were planning to kill the Soviet leadership?

Funny that

It's not like Zinoviev and Kamenev hadn't already set a precedent for their terrorist ways.
In 1925 Stalin had to convince them not to kill Trotsky because "Trotsky will be politically destroyed soon anyway. Why make a martyr out of him?" (David M Cole, Stalin, P.68 attached)

>>374517
To get closer relations with the USSR you need to write in a mass of detail, as he did in his book (which was published), on the Moscow Trials not being faked and in his diary (which was not published) about all his conversations with other diplomats how they thought they weren't fake too?

<“DIARY Moscow February 11, 37

<The Belgian Minister, De Tellier, has been here a long time. I had a most interesting discussion with him to-day. He is experienced, able, shrewd, and wise; and knows his Europe well. The defendants in the trial were guilty, in his opinion.
<DIARY Moscow February 18, 1937
<The Minister called. Re trial: There was no doubt but that a widespread conspiracy existed and that the defendants were guilty.
>DIARY Moscow March 11, 1937
<Another diplomat, Minister – , made a most illuminating statement to me yesterday. In discussing the trial he said that the defendants were undoubtedly guilty; that all of us who attended the trial had practically agreed on that; that the outside world, from the press reports, however, seemed to think that the trial was a put-up job (facade, as he called it); that while we knew it was not, it was probably just as well that the outside world should think so.” (ibid.)
Lmao
Do you see the mental gymnastics you anticommunists have to do?
>>

 No.374546

>>374539
I don't doubt that Davies considered the trials legitimate, but it would also be incorrect to characterize him as a hostile observer.
>>

 No.374549

>>374546
He was an experienced lawyer and had no reason to do any cover up. And he wasn't alone. Pritt too. And as anon showed here >>374539 many others.

>>374539
>In discussing the trial he said that the defendants were undoubtedly guilty; that all of us who attended the trial had practically agreed on that; that the outside world, from the press reports, however, seemed to think that the trial was a put-up job (facade, as he called it); that while we knew it was not, it was probably just as well that the outside world should think so.
Kek. Well, that's basically what they all did. Lied and continue to lie to this day.
>>

 No.374558

>>374549
>He was an experienced lawyer and had no reason to do any cover up.
If he was an advocate of closer ties between the US and USSR then he would have an interest in promoting a more positive view of the Soviets to an American audience. I'm not saying he was deliberately lying, just that he appears to have been a sympathetic observer as opposed to a hostile one.
>>

 No.374567

>>374539
the trials are whatever, murdering them was not necesary

rounding up and shooting 600,000 people cuz they lived in a close geographical area to the accussed was dumb
>>

 No.374590

>>374558
That is just bullshit and pathertic mental gymnastics.
> just that he appears to have been a sympathetic observer
Where he appears as one? You are already jumping through hundreds of hoops just to reach the conclusion you want.

You are trying to push the bullshit about experienced lawyer being dumb enough to not notice blatant farce going on before his eyes. Because "he was sympathetic" or some shit. Reality doesn't work like that.

Btw, you seem to evade this question, was Pritt "sympathetic" too? Were other journalists and diplomats all so sypathetic that they failed to notice anything out of place?
>>

 No.374591

>>374558
>he was an advocate of closer ties between the US and USSR
Where? Because he said that communism holds no serious threat to USA in a memo? That makes someone and advocate?
>>

 No.374593

Reasons why the trials were legit:
>evidence for the existence of an opposition bloc lasting until the mid 30s
>evidence that some members had entertained the notion of terrorist activity against Stalin in the past
>extremely detailed confessions
>no evidence of physical torture
>foreign observers thought they were legit
Reasons the trials were sus:
<very little physical evidence presented, convictions relied mainly on testimonies
<none of the defendants took the opportunity to denounce Stalin or justify their actions
<those that weren't executed were later murdered in prison
<the accusations were pretty outlandish at times (overthrowing Stalin is one thing, but overthrowing the revolution is far more difficult to believe given how long these guys had been revolutionaries)
<some defendants later recanted their confessions
>>

 No.374605

>>374593
>very little physical evidence presented, convictions relied mainly on testimonies
False
>none of the defendants took the opportunity to denounce Stalin or justify their actions
Non sequitur
>those that weren't executed were later murdered in prison
Proofs? Why would they need to be secretely murdered at all when they could've been sentenced to death anyway?
>the accusations were pretty outlandish at times
Coup is not an outlandish claim.
>given how long these guys had been revolutionaries
Not very good ones, see >>374539
>some defendants later recanted their confessions
Happens all the time, doesn't really matter, since the trial was not based on cofessions but on evidence and cross examination of testimonies.
>>

 No.374647

Interesting contemporary article from American legal scholar Max Radin on the merits and flaws of the trials.
>>

 No.374650

>>374647
>The defendants were members of a group called by many the "Old Bolsheviks
>by many
Don't even need to read further. It's shit.
>>

 No.374659

>>374650
Bruh he literally comes to the conclusion that they were probably guilty, and yet the smallest detail causes you to immediately dismiss him. You really need to work on that autism.
>>

 No.374662

>>369730
It’s clear as day that Trotsky was forming his own bloc against the party center. But the fact that this is anywhere more harmful than an attempt at taking power is debatable. In realpolitik term Stalin was absolutely in the right for purging them for conspiracy.
But did this go out of control to the point that Stalin also used it to stomp others outside of the bloc? Of course, he’s a politician! One rock to hit two birds, the unforeseen consequences be damn.
On another note, the thing with Trotsky being on the left of the Stalin’s center is always a big question. The only one that openly said this had only been the Trotskyists themselves, who mind you was constantly flip flopping in position.
>>

 No.374666

File: 1626185424979.png ( 241.16 KB , 520x748 , History of CPUSB - Left Op….png )

>>374593
><the accusations were pretty outlandish at times (overthrowing Stalin is one thing, but overthrowing the revolution is far more difficult to believe given how long these guys had been revolutionaries)
Lmao Kamenev and Zinoviev got cold feet on the 1917 revolution and alerted the Kerensky government to the uprising
They should've been shot for that alone in 1927
Trotsky, Bukharin and a bunch of the left comms in 1918 then fuck up the peace negotiations at Brest-Litvost resulting in Germans restarting invasion of Russia and taking a bunch more land
<N. Bukharin is now even attempting to deny the fact that he and his friends asserted that it was impossible for the Germans to attack. But very, very many people know that it is a fact, that Bukharin and his friends did assert this, and that by sowing such an illusion they helped German imperialism and hindered the growth of the German revolution, which has now been weakened by the fact that the Great Russian Soviet Republic, during the panic-stricken flight of the peasant army, has been deprived of thousands upon thousands of guns and of wealth to the value of hundreds upon hundreds of millions. I had predicted this definitely and clearly in my theses of January 7.* If N. Bukharin is now compelled to eat his words, so much the worse for him. All who remember that Bukharin and his friends said that it was impossible for the Germans to attack will only shrug
-Lenin, A Serious Lesson And A Serious Responsibility, https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/mar/05.htm

They then are trying to rope Stalin into assassinating Trotsky in 1925 despite the fact noone likes Trotsky and think he's a arrogant faggot and that his political career will be dead soon anyway (it was over by 1927)
They then (the next year) move back into an agreement with Trotsky in 1926 for the Left Opposition and finally, having opposed the party on almost every issue since 1917 (factions and groups, party organisation etc) they then put their platform to the Bolshevik Party to be voted on and are only able to get 4000 votes compared to 724,000 for the Central Committee which spells the end of their political careers

When you actually research and study 1920s soviet politics you see how actually lenient and forgiving the party was to this bunch of cretinous faggots.
These are your "Old Bolsheviks"
>>374647
Thanks Anon, I will read, I did laugh at the "old Bolsheviks" line a few lines in
>>

 No.374668

File: 1626185492343.png ( 3.77 MB , 1564x1564 , ag2.png )

>>374659
>>374650
You inspired me to whip this up Anon.
>>

 No.374669

>>374662
>But the fact that this is anywhere more harmful than an attempt at taking power is debatable
Assasinating Stalin and other soviet leaders in face of foreign invasion is surely not a very harmful act.
>also used it to stomp others outside of the bloc
They worked with each other.
>>

 No.374672

>>374666
>They should've been shot for that alone in 1927
1917 you mean. I agree. Soviet leadership was learning from French revolution (to the point that they tried to describe all the events in terms of those time, like Termidor), and unfortunately it lead them to err too much on the side of caution. They didn't want to end the saem way, killing each other, revolution eating it's own children, but instead they left too much people alive who should've been killed right away. Kamenev, Zinoviev, Bukharin and Trotsky being most notorious examples.
>>

 No.374679

>>374668
Yeah, it's funny. Still, even after reading that article i didn't find anything that wasn't already posted in this thread, so whatever.
>>

 No.374864

File: 1626191599956.jpg ( 297.73 KB , 936x1324 , 1625899517477.jpg )

>>374647
Thanks Anon interesting article
This is not contemporary though it was written in 1937
It is interesting that Foreign Affairs considered the trials to have likely been legit even as far back as 1937 and that he considers the Soviets to have done a much, much more thorough job than what would've happened in england or USA
Where he says "a guilty plea wouldve ended the trials there"
It is also interesting how he would've been unaware of Gettys discovery in the 1980s of Sedovs letter to Trotsky confirming they had organised the bloc >>369958 and Trotsky saying "one acts against repression with conspiracy and anonymity not silence"
>>

 No.374871

File: 1626191738907.png ( 716.79 KB , 1080x1920 , Screenshot_20210713-164617….png )

>>374864
Attached wrong picture
>>

 No.374952

>>374871
>But English and American observers will not readily overcome their repugnance to capital punishment
Wut. USA still has death penalty iirc
>>

 No.374955

>>374421
Why? They improved quality of life in China significantly, building atop Mao's legacy without destroying it in any way. They aren't opposed to the Party Line, they represent the Party Line
>>

 No.374969

>>374955
>They improved quality of life in China significantly
The usual neolib bull about improving quality of life but instead measuring the income. The China today has less worker rights and less security for it's people than USSR gave in 20s or 30s. It's a capitalist country through and through.
>building atop Mao's legacy without destroying it in any way
Which was basically same as Bukharin's "integration of kulaks into capitalism". Mao did not have a good understanding of marxist theory, so what he built was not socialism, which is why Deng and others didn't need to actually change much to turn back to capitalism.
>They aren't opposed to the Party Line, they represent the Party Line
Yes, and the party is capitalist now.
>>

 No.374972

File: 1626195357293.jpg ( 274.14 KB , 1600x1200 , AtaturkVoroshilov.jpg )

>>374523
How did those "amoebas" got their hands into every country in the world, though? Like, there's a statue dedicated to turkish revolution, and next to Ataturk there stands Voroshilov. How did the "incompetent amoeba" manage to brainwash Ataturk? Don't forget that Voroshilov was the one winning Finnish War (unprepared Leningrad military district alone managed to beat finnish troops' heads in and made them sit in bunkers for three months before doing an encirclement of entire finnish army - yeah, dude, let's believe finnish propaganda's billions dead zergs, i mean russians!), he was the one making Leer cry bloody tears and attack into fortified Soviet positions despite OKW's orders to stop, and nazis silently changing the objective from taking Leningrad to starving it out - "we didn't even want it!" - he was the guy accompanying Stalin in Teheran, he was the guy who toured Eastern Europe - Romania, Hungary, Finland - and making peace deals with them (Voroshilov has multiple finnish medals, LOL) - like, come the fuck on, how is that an incompetent amoeba? He was as hero of Civil War, and he was a hero of all other USSR wars. Implying that Soviet people were dumb enough to praise the guy for 30 years and more is equivalent to claiming that Soviet people were idiots
>>

 No.374976

>>374567
600000 murdered didn't happen. Sorry, but it's all lies. There's zero non-fake evidence of those murders being real.
>>

 No.375003

File: 1626196259132.jpg ( 2.01 MB , 3000x1492 , ChinaLeftRussiaMiddleDPRKR….jpg )

>>374969
>The usual neolib bull about improving quality of life but instead measuring the income.

What the hell.

Let's start from the basics here. Are you implying that China is starving right now like it did before Mao? Are you implying that China didn't improve food quality and variance for it's people, while also becoming 99% self-sufficient food-wise?

Are you implying that chinese are not the factory of the world today, or that ALL the factory produce of China is getting shipped outside? You know that both of those "implies" are easily disproven?

Next, how in the world iron rice bowl is a better working rights/security than having enough money to buy whatever your economy produces? Why the fuck are you people stuck at "this factory has a rice field attached to it, and thus it's workers will always have something to eat"? Transition to higher food security means discrarding iron rice bowl - because it's no longer needed! Just go at your local store with your wage.

>Which was basically same as Bukharin's "integration of kulaks into capitalism".


Wut. China had strong enough kulak class? Where? It was all dirt poor peasants and their landlords, kulaks didn't exist because there was no any additional profit to extract from peasants. due to low productivity of that labor. Under Mao agrarian cooperatives happened, and they developed the land and improved productivity, enabling more peasants to move to cities. With those cooperatives, peasants grew wealthier (still dirt poor though due to overpopulation), and in chinese conditions it meant cooperatives hindering growth, hence family units were created.

Kulaks in China didn't exist, there was no material conditions for them. Today in China kulaks don't exist either, because tractors, fertilizers, industrial goods, land improvement, technology, new breeds of crops, etc etc all is readily available to the peasantry, thus kulak is deader than dead - because kulak is a petty troll sitting on a scarce amount of necessary agrarians MoPs, such as horses, oxen, mill, investment, whatever, and with all of those things easily accessible to peasantry kulaks CAN'T EXIST, nobody will go into debt to serve a kulak if there's state giving a way better offer.

>Yes, and the party is capitalist now.


No, the party is communist one.
>>

 No.375022

>>374516
>overthrowing the bueraucratic leadership under Stalin made up of spineless amebas would have been a good thing
Sure, if you want to believe so. But if you admit they wanted an overthrow the case against them becomes completely legit.
>>

 No.375024

>>375003
>China had strong enough kulak class? Where? It was all dirt poor peasants and their landlords, kulaks didn't exist because there was no any additional profit to extract from peasants
Do you even know who kulaks were? Jesus, this is so dumb.
>Under Mao agrarian cooperatives happened, and they developed the land and improved productivity, enabling more peasants to move to cities.
What happened was creation of local porkies that increased efficiency at the cost of other peasants and created bigger reserve army of labor. It is completely different from what USSR was doing and dumb porky overpopulation mem has nothing to do with it.
>peasants grew wealthier
Some definitely did.
>ecause kulak is a petty troll sitting on a scarce amount of necessary agrarians MoPs, such as horses, oxen, mill, investment, whatever, and with all of those things easily accessible to peasantry kulaks CAN'T EXIST
You clearly has no idea what you are talking about.

>Are you implying that China is starving right now like it did before Mao? Are you implying that China didn't improve food quality and variance for it's people, while also becoming 99% self-sufficient food-wise?

It is an industrialized country now. What is your point? That every industrialized country is socialist?
>Are you implying that chinese are not the factory of the world today
It is. Because it sold it's workers as a cheap labor, making htem work in horrible conditions. This is not a good argument from the perspective of a socialist. This is a good argument from a perspective of a nationalist, who thinks that because porkies of his own country are important, it means he is too or something like that.
>Next, how in the world iron rice bowl is a better working rights/security than having enough money to buy whatever your economy produces?
Did you even understood my argument? I am comparing worker's rights to early USSR not to Mao's China. China today is a MUCH more developed country than USSR was but still can't afford even fraction of what USSR was given to it's citizens.
>No, the party is communist one.

Cope, deng beetle.
>>

 No.375027

>>374567
>rounding up and shooting 600,000 people cuz they lived in a close geographical area to the accussed
If you're talking about the purges that's not how it went. Some terrible decisions were made (NKVD troikas given authority to execute without proper trial is a real blunder, literally giving powers to potential traitors when hunting for traitors) but nothing as absurd as killing people for being near traitors.
>>

 No.375031

>>375027
It's like he just mixed up several different myths about USSR into one
>>

 No.375304

>>375027
the purges were literally cuz of the trials when they rounded up and shot tens of thousands of people that worked under the accused
>>

 No.375331

>>

 No.375358

File: 1626206588613.jpg ( 90.97 KB , 446x600 , Mikhail_Tukhachevsky[1].jpg )

Was he really a traitor? he could have been what Zhukov was
>>

 No.376758

>>375358
No, he couldn't have been. He had like a hundred opportunities to become a war hero during Civil War, yet all he did was a Miracle on Vistula.

Yes, he was a traitor. He was a germanophile, and he supplied german side with military secrets. He tried to defend himself claiming that Poland + Germany military were like 4 times as big as USSR military, but Stalin didn't want to build tanks and divisions in 1930, so he started helping germans,
>>

 No.376875

has anyone read this critique of Grover Furr?
http://blanquist.blogspot.com/2017/05/on-grover-furr-and-moscow-trials.html

>You claim that the confession are valid because "There is no evidence worthy of the name that the defendants were threatened, or tortured, or induced to give false confessions by promises of some kind."5 However, we know from declassified Soviet Archives, such as those compiled by a scholar, who's work you have consistently praised, J Arch Getty in a collection entitled The Road to Terror: Stalin and the Self-Destruction of the Bolsheviks, 1932-1939 (referenced in the following four notes) prove the existence of varying methods of coercion in the Soviet judicial system such as the following:


<Arrest Quotas for suspects (p. 471-76, Document 170).


<NKVD instructions for watching and punishing families of suspects (p. 477, Document 170)


<Various forms of solitary confinement. (p. 3)


<Torture (p. 489)


>It remains for reasonable people to doubt the validity of confessions in a judicial system which practices such methods. In fact, I would go so far as to say that such methods are in contradiction to communist ethics and morality. The presumption of guilt based on confessions without substantiating evidence, the threatening of families of suspects cannot be defended as a valid communist practice in matters of interrogation or law. Our goal as communist should not be to uphold such methods and the fruits which come from them, but to denounce them.


I think he has a point here
>>

 No.377027

>>375358
Retard historians like Timothy Snyder (who became best sellers overnight. Almost as if right wing think tanks buy up their books to get them on best seller lists)
Referred to the Tukhachevsky Trial as a "show trial"
<Eight high commanders of the armed forces were show-tried that same month; about half of the generals of the Red Army would be executed in the months to come…
-Snyder, Blood Lands
The retard faggot forgot the military trial of 1937 was a closed trial. No country on earth gives open trials to military members.
They're tried by a military tribunal even for trivial offences not a public court (the other trials were open to the worlds press and ambassadors) and they are punished harder than a civil court usually

This is how dishonest and retarded anticommunist and bourgeois 'historians' are

The Tukhachevsky transcript was not released until 2018 (classified under Kruschev) but the grandson of Alksnis, who was shot alongside Tukhachevsky got advance reading of the transcript and concluded his grandfather and Tukhachevksy were guilty
The Kruschevite press claimed (at the time) that they denied everything. But they did not. They confessed in a huge amount of detail
<V.A. My grandfather and Tukhachevsky were friends. And my grandfather was a member of that judicial conference, which tried both Tukhachevsky and Eideman. The interest in this case increased even more after the well-known publications of the prosecutor Viktorov, who wrote that Yakov Alksnis was very active during the trial, “drowning” the accused … According to the transcript, the opposite is true. During the entire process, they were asked only two or three questions. But the strangest thing is the behavior of the accused. The newspapers wrote that they denied everything, did not agree with anything. And in the transcript – full confession. The very fact of a confession, I understand, can be achieved by torture. But there is something completely different: an abundance of details, a long dialogue, mutual accusations, a lot of clarifications. It’s impossible to direct this. There is something mysterious …
<V.A. I know nothing of the nature of the conspiracy. But today I am completely convinced that a conspiracy within the Red Army really existed, and Tukhachevsky was a participant in it. So, despite the external abundance of publications, there are more and more questions. To answer them, you need access to all the materials. It would seem: for so long they talked about the need to declassify them. So declassify, finally! An – no. Apparently there are some big riddles in those materials.
And the grandson of Alksnis hinted the mass of material still classified would "shoot like a canon from the past"
<V.A. It seems that there, in the 30s, there is a certain cannon that can shoot at us, in our time. And then everything can turn in a completely different way. In the meantime … So far, a certain idea of ​​those events has been created and everything is being done to support just such a view.
https://diplomaticpost.co.uk/index.php/2021/05/09/last-colonel-of-the-empire/

“You are wrong to tie the fate of your country to countries which are old and finished, such as France and Britain. We ought to turn towards new Germany… Germany will assume the leading position on the continent of Europe” –Marshall Tukhachevsky (Geoffrey Bailey , The Conspirators)

“[P]ro-German statements made by Tukhachevsky in Western European countries during his trip to Britain became known in France and Czechoslovakia… The information that such an important figure as Tukhachevsky took a pro-German stand caused grave concern in Paris and Prague. The two governments notified the Soviet Government about Tukhachevsky’s statements.”
–Yuri Yemelianov, “The Tukhachevsky Conspiracy”

“The Moscow press announced that… (the accused generals) had been in the pay of Hitler and had agreed to help him get the Ukraine. This charge was fairly widely believed in foreign military circles, and was later substantiated by revelations made abroad. Czech military circles seemed to be especially well informed. Czech officials in Prague bragged to me later that their military men had been the first to discover and to complain to Moscow that Czech military secrets, known to the Russians through the mutual aid alliance, were being revealed by Tukhachevsky to the German high command.” –Anna Strong, The Soviets Expected It. New York: The Dial press, 1941, p. 134

“People of the French Deuxieme Bureau told me long ago that Tukhachevsky was pro-German. And the Czechs told me the extraordinary story of Tukhachevsky’s visit to Prague, when towards the end of the banquet – he had got rather drunk – he blurted out that an agreement with Hitler was the only hope for both Czechoslovakia and Russia. And he then proceeded to abuse Stalin. The Czechs did not fail to report this to the Kremlin, and that was the end of Tukhachevsky – and of so many of his followers.”
–Alexander Worth, quoted in Harpal Brar, Perestroika: The Complete Collapse of Revisionism (1992)
>>

 No.377079

>>

 No.377085

>>376875
read like "ok we have no indication they were coerced, but it could happen in the soviet system !"
ok and ? in the case at hand, nobody watching thought it happened.

>The presumption of guilt based on confessions

afaik there was evidence, as well as their defense versions basically collapsing to cross examination, leading to confession
>>

 No.377091

>>377027
give us the canon goddamn; world communism needs a huge jump-start right about now
>>

 No.377154

File: 1626269316395.jpg ( 636.53 KB , 1392x594 , Tukhachevskys last words.jpg )

>>

 No.377244

>>376875
Relying on Getty is just laughable. He is just as bad as the rest of them. Getty literally relies on the book written in the 90s by literally nobody who claimed he conducted 140 interviews with Molotov without any proofs of thereof as valid source and get from it his evidence of torture happening.

It's like every fucking rule of historical source analysis is thrown out of the window when soviet history comes into question.
>>

 No.377246

>>377154
Should've been shot after soviet-polish war
>>

 No.377249

>>377244
What are some good sources in English on Soviet history then? Why is the soviet historical field so atrocious in terms of sourcing, framing, and credibility?
>>

 No.377288

>>376875
LMao this faggot is combining 2 different things: The Ezhovschina and the Moscow Trials. Why do trots struggle to understand basic history or theory?
The Ezhovschina * IN 1937* (or as Anna Louise Strong called it, The Great Madness - book attached go read that chapter) was in response to the Moscow Trials where people became very paranoid because of:
-The Moscow Trials
-The Spanish Civil War and introduction of the term "fifth column" in 1936 during the war. They began to perceive (rightfully to a much lesser degree in my opinion) that there were a set fifth columnists in Soviet Union leading to everyone and their gran denouncing their neighbour
-The understanding in all of Soviet society that WW2 was about to break out as Soviets were effectively fighting Nazis and Italians in Spain already
These are 2 separate things that slightly overlap but yes the Ezhovschina undoubtedly picked up innocent people

<<Arrest Quotas for suspects (p. 471-76, Document 170).

The famous mistranslated "Quotas" during the Ezhovschina when they were actually "limits"
Sounds like a trivial difference until you realise:
Local Party groups had huge amounts of autonomy and Soviet society wasn't actually run by Stalin sending decrees out to everyone when they can and can't wipe their arse like the painted characture that exists.
Local groups sent up reports to the CC whereby, from the CC and Stalins point of view, the country was engaged in a massive sea of conspiracies. These local groups were demanding authorisation to repress anti-soviet groups to prevent counter-revolution.
The Central Committee - seeing how this could get out of hand - set maximum limits to the local groups that could be shot afraid that the Local Party groups would get out of control.
<For the next year or more Stalin was flooded with reports of conspiracies and revolts from all over the USSR. A large number of these have been published (in Russian). Undoubtedly a great many more remain unpublished in former Soviet archives throughout the former Soviet Union. According to Khaustov, a very anti-Stalin researcher and one of the compilers of several of these invaluable document collections, Stalin believed these reports.
<"And the most frightening thing was that Stalin made his decisions on the basis of confessions that were the result of the inventions of certain employees of the organs of state security. Stalin's reactions attest to the fact that he took these confessions completely seriously." (Lubianka golgofa, p. 6.)
<It is important to ideologically anticommunist researchers that these mass murders be seen as Stalin's plan and intention. Khaustov is honest enough to admit that the evidence does not bear this out. Some, and no doubt many, of the confessional and investigative documents Ezhov sent on to Stalin and the Soviet leadership must have been falsifications. But in reality Khaustov has no idea which were fabrications and which were not.
<What is important here is that Khaustov admits the existence of a major conspiracy by Ezhov and concedes that Stalin was deceived by him. Ezhov admits as much in the confessions of his that we now have. Khaustov admits that Stalin acted in good faith on the basis of evidence presented to him by Ezhov, much of which must have been false.
Furr, Blood Lies, http://www.readmarxeveryday.org/bloodlies/ch06.html

<NKVD instructions for watching and punishing families of suspects (p. 477, Document 170)

You can go read document 170 (most of it is in the Furr link above I provided) whilst it's pretty harsh the people to be shot were specified as white guardists, ex kulaks who had escaped labour camps, criminals *who were all engaged in anti-soviet activity*.and the family members were unmolested unless they lived in key cities in which case they were to be sent to labour camps
You can say this is harsh…. I'd say its pretty comparable to the Burgers rounding the Japanese into camps during ww2

<Various forms of solitary confinement. (p. 3)

Solitary confinement is practised daily all over the West
I agree its a form of torture but to point to Soviets as if this is an anomaly is like when the West Germans were trying to find East German crimes after 1991 and the only thing they could prosecute the East German leaders for was the use of water cannons against protestors
Something that isn't even a crime in USA/UK or France.
What with FRance using them to blow peoples eyes out in the recent protests

<Torture (p. 489)

Getty is a retarded faggot. Here's the page these dumb trots referred to with the book attached
>He complained about the secret police, that they applied to him intolerable methods. But he never gave any confession: "I don't admit to anything that they write about me." It was at the NKVD. . . . They worked him over pretty hard. Evidently they tortured him severely.
Getty is implying Molotov thinks he's innocent. Yet Molotov thought Rubzutak was guilty
>…The trials fully exposed him [Rudzutak] as an active accomplice of the rightists. He actually had personal associations with Rykov and Tomsky.
Chuev, Feliks. Molotov Remembers. Chicago: I. R. Dee, 1993, p. 275

So Rudzutak (if we are to believe that dishonest faggot Getty who is pretending Molotov thought Rudzutak was innocent when Molotov actually said he was guilty) if he was tortured…
He never confessed and he never signed anything
But I thought torture turned people into automatons willing to go up in front of a court and give long detailed confessions in cross examinations?!
So which is it? Torture works and you can get people to confess so convincingly in front of a crowd of international diplomats that they go away thinking the trials were real?
Or is it much more likely those accused would never have confessed if they hadn't done it in the first place

The article is a retarded conclusion by any measure. It says Bukharin didn't confess to certain things.
But he did confess to a fucking lot though
For instance he admitted to wanting to overthrow the party but not to espionage (attached)

So Bukharin did admit to stuff he would be shot for but then supposedly denied involvement in other stuff.
But he was tortured or so we're told (with no evidence of his torture)

The entire trial people lied consistently. Bukharin particularly. He only confessed to things when the prosecution mounted evidence piece by piece on him and he admitted to things only when he was caught bang to rights.

The confusion between the Moscow Trials and Ezhovschina shows this author doesn't really know anything
>>

 No.377294

>>377249
>>377249
>Why is the soviet historical field so atrocious in terms of sourcing, framing, and credibility?
Because
>Almost every single reliable source isn't available in English, burgers don't care about any other language except English.
>Since we're talking about the USSR here and no one will actually verify any source they just can keep adding zeroes to the death count until it's something like a fucking gorilllion-00000000000000 and no one will care.

Burgers just can't understand history that is not their own they're mentally incapable of doing so, look at what they say about chinese history.
>>

 No.377320

File: 1626278845253-0.mp4 ( 13.72 MB , 480x360 , trotsky_moscow-trials_1938.mp4 )

File: 1626278845253-1.pdf ( 7.59 MB , 194x300 , behind-the-moscow-trial.pdf )

tr*tsky on the moscow trials
pdf is the book he is holding
>>

 No.377342

>>377320
What a demagogue.

>>377294
I would have to disagree. It's not like burgers are alone in this. Even in Russia and other post soviet countries where you can have access to actual historical sources in original language, myths about gorillions killed by communists are widespread.
>>

 No.377353

>>377320
Trotskys writings are completely worthless, particularly on the Moscow Trials
This page Getty found in the archives in the 80s (and they only found it in the 80s because Trotsky demanded Harvard keep his archive closed for 40 years, sus much?) proved Trotsky a liar on almost every point at the Dewey Commission

The Dewey COmmission asked him about the creation of a bloc and he called it a "Stalinist amalgamation"

What's more the blocs of different groups mentioned proves he lied about his connection every time to all the members in the bloc
Also lol at Schactman. This guy degenerated so badly as a Marxist reached the conclusion that Soviet society wasn't even socialist (Trotsky at least held it was)
>>

 No.377360

File: 1626280662549.jpg ( 421.7 KB , 1600x899 , 31xp-antifa-pix1-videoSixt….jpg )

>>369730
marxism(or comunism) is just liberlaism in decay, that´s why the USSR was faking the entire thing until gorvachev showet the true colors of the union like when the allies invaded nazi germany and showed to the world the concentration camps
>>

 No.377369

>>377353
>Also lol at Schactman. This guy degenerated so badly as a Marxist reached the conclusion that Soviet society wasn't even socialist
Was he the one who supported USA incasion in Cuba later on?
>>

 No.377382

>>377369
>Was he the one who supported USA incasion in Cuba later on?
Lmao I didn't believe this so had to look it up
<In 1962, Shachtman published The Bureaucratic Revolution: The Rise of the Stalinist States. In the book he argued that capitalism and Stalinism to be equal impediments to socialism. In 1958, the ISL dissolved so that its members could join the Socialist Party of America. Shachtman also believed that socialists should try to move the Democratic Party to the left from within. Shachtman also worked closely with Bayard Rustin and the Civil Rights Movement.

<Shachtman's anti-communism moved him to the right and upset fellow members by refusing to condemn the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba and his unwillingness to call for US armed forces to leave Vietnam. This alienated former supporters such as Walter Reuther and Michael Harrington. When George McGovern became the Democratic Party candidate in 1972 on an anti-war manifesto, Shachtman refused to endorse him.

https://spartacus-educational.com/USAshachtman.htm
Socialism with Democratic Party characteristics
>>

 No.377388

>>377382
>Socialism with Democratic Party characteristics
Ahem, trotskyism-vaushism is the proper pronoun.
>>

 No.377425

File: 1626283339379.png ( 51.68 KB , 595x539 , yank.png )

>>377360
>marxism(or comunism) is just liberlaism in decay
>heh, ill just take a common leftist talking point, exchance the thing i like for the thing they like, and it will be true! i totally understand what i am saying
>>

 No.377427

>>377425
Better to ignore the obvious troll
>>

 No.377498

Molotov's wife was a right-wing german terrorist as well
>>

 No.377766

>>374972
>Implying that Soviet people were dumb enough to praise the guy for 30 years and more is equivalent to claiming that Soviet people were idiots
There is a difference between "the people" or whatever and bureaucracy as a social strata with its own corporate interests.
It always amazes me how so many marxists, especially mltards of all strands, dishonestly use "the people" as a valid category, when marxist analysis is all about social groups.
When politics enters through the door, marxism flies out of the window. It's always "soviet people" with you mltards, no fucking nuance, no depth, nothing.
>>

 No.377778

>>377766
You gonna present some proofs for what you are saying or just gonna blabber mindlessly and throw shit like a retarded monkey?
>>

 No.377788

>>377778
Lmao, evidence that bureaucracy had its own separate corporate interests? Look no further than dissolution of the ussr.
>>

 No.377791

>>377788
I see that you have gone with second option. Maybe you should go back to /pol/ to your natural habitat then.
>>

 No.377793

>>377294
>Complains that burgers don't understand Russian and Chinese history
>Offers nothing to help burgers understand, just more incessant bitching
Have you started your dissertation yet, anon? Which PhD program have you been accepted to?
>>

 No.377797

>>377791
pol is right up your alley with this level of discussion mltard
>>

 No.377834

>>376875
>It remains for reasonable people to doubt the validity of confessions in a judicial system which practices such methods. In fact, I would go so far as to say that such methods are in contradiction to communist ethics and morality. The presumption of guilt based on confessions without substantiating evidence, the threatening of families of suspects cannot be defended as a valid communist practice in matters of interrogation or law.
But you see, you're just a weak soyboy westerner, that's why you care about "justice", real communists don't care about such idealism, justice of the troika is good enough for a real communist. If you confess under torture - you're just not a real communist.
>>

 No.377855

>>377085
>afaik there was evidence
what evidence? all you have are fucking confessions and sucking off prosecution
ie, you have fucking nothing
>>

 No.377868

>>377288
Ezhovshina was NKVD work
Moscow trials was NKVD work
and mltards have a nerve to appeal to some "professionalism" of the prosecution. laughable.
>>

 No.377984

>>377834
>>377855
you've forgot to change your flag, retard

fuck off back to /pol/ /zion/
>>

 No.378003

>>377984
I call this time Hour of Burger. Usually it is at this time those faggots come out of the woods.
>>

 No.378124

>>372226

Religion in another form
>>

 No.378137

>>377498
Was she tho? Didn't she get locked up for being too much of a Zionist?
>>

 No.378144

>>377793
Are you retarded? How can some rando on a Mongolian basket weaving forum with 0 institutional influence or power completely change the way burgers view history?
>>

 No.378145


>>374509

> it's a bit ridiculous that in 36 he decides to humiliate and murder them.



You ever beat up a guy? As a kid I used to spit on people after I got em. No reason, just wanted to rub it in for the juice, baby.

Same with those trials. It isn't enough to win, seeing your enemies begging for mercy while piss runs down their leg is so satisfying, it's worth doing
>>

 No.378204

>>378144
They said, "Almost every single reliable source isn't available in English"—as if burger academics aren't required to have at least reading-level proficiency in whatever language used by their subject of study. I'm not defending Getty here, but that's a very idiotic thing to say. Like, no shit; any academic who doesn't pull from primary sources is retarded and ideally would be unceremoniously stripped of institutional funding.
>>

 No.378212

>>378204
And as for what your average person can do, they maybe can commission translations of Russian sources and other scholarly work. For example, I'm an amateur art historian who's been trying to find reliable sources on Socialist Realism. There's this guy named Evgeny Dobrenko who's been writing about it for years. Here in the US, both Northwestern University Press and Yale University Press translated and published his most noteworthy works into English in the 2000s, but for whatever reason omitted chapters from their original Russian editions. I don't know why; I don't think I'd really care to know. But I've gotten to a point where I'm contemplating learning Russian just in order to read the omitted chapters. I wish didn't have to.
>>

 No.378216

>>378204
You should probably know that at least some of our resident Stalinoids unironically consider the entire field of academic history to be a bourgeois psyop. Hence why they don't seem phased by the overwhelming rejection of people like Furr by nearly everyone in the field.
>>

 No.378475

>>377320
In a different would does Trotsky go after the "Leninist bureaucracy" if Lenin didn't die early?
>>

 No.378869

>>378204
>as if burger academics aren't required to have at least reading-level proficiency in whatever language used by their subject of study
They don't actually.
>>

 No.378872

>>378475
He did so in ours too. Whatever Trotsky blamed Stalin for, he already blamed Lenin.
>>

 No.378889

>>378204
>any academic who doesn't pull from primary sources is retarded and ideally would be unceremoniously stripped of institutional funding.
Getty relies on the book by Felix Chuev, guy who in the 90s claimed he conducted 140 interviews with Molotov, without any proofs of thereof. This book does not constitute a historical source, yet he still uses it, in fact he uses it to prove that defendants of Moscow trials were tortured.

You can keep your head in the sand and pretend that porky academics are even somewhat impartial on the subject related to communism. I won't.
>>

 No.378965

>>378872
Wait he actually said stuff about Lenin similarly? Was this in like the 1920's what do you mean. Or do you mean to say it about Stalin basically is saying it about Lenin.
>>

 No.378977

>>378965
Yes, according to Trotsky Lenin was authoritarian bureaucrat. Read what Trotsky wrote before revolution whiule he flip floped between bolsheviks and mensheviks and then settle for some "thrid power" bs. Lenin did not like Trotsky either.
>>

 No.379133

File: 1626331044708.jpg ( 82.98 KB , 630x688 , Should have killed more.jpg )

Read the conclusions of American Diplomat and lawyer Joseph E. Davies he literally states that he was skeptical of the trials legitimacy, but upon seeing them in action and seeing the documents he found them to be a wholly legitimate prosecution.

>"[T]he best judgment seems to believe that in all probability there was a definite conspiracy in the making looking to a coup d’état by the army — not necessarily anti-Stalin, but antipolitical and antiparty, and that Stalin struck with characteristic speed, boldness and strength.’”

>“Had a fine talk with Litvinov. I told him quite frankly the reactions in U.S. and Western Europe to the purges; and to the executions of the Red Army generals; that it definitely was bad… Litvinov was very frank. He stated that they had to ‘make sure’ through these purges that there was no treason left which could co-operate with Berlin or Tokyo; that someday the world would understand that what they had done was to protect the government from ‘menacing treason.’ In fact, he said they were doing the whole world a service in protecting themselves against the menace of Hitler and Nazi world domination, and thereby preserving the Soviet Union strong as a bulwark against the Nazi threat. That the world would appreciate what a very great man Stalin was.”
>"The Attorney General [Vyshinsky] is a man of about 60 and is much like Homer Cummings; calm, dispassionate, intellectual, and able and wise. He conducted the treason trial in a manner that won my respect and admiration as a lawyer."
>"From reports of the previous trials the present case differed in the opinion of many observers here in that there was practically unanimity of confessions here, also greater corroboration, and a more general opinion on the part of disinterested observers that an actual conspiracy was shown to exist against the Soviet government. With an interpreter at my side, I followed the testimony carefully."
>"Naturally I must confess that I was predisposed against the credibility of the testimony of these defendants. The unanimity of their confessions, the fact of their long imprisonment with the possibility of duress and coercion extending to themselves or their families, all gave me grave doubts as to the reliability that could attach to their statements. Viewed objectively, however, and based upon my experience in the trial of cases and the application of the tests of credibility which past experience had afforded me, I arrived at the reluctant conclusion that the state had established its case, at least to the extent of proving the existence of a widespread conspiracy and plot among the political leaders against the Soviet government, and which under their statutes established the crimes set forth in the indictment…. I am still impressed with the many indications of credibility which obtained in the course of the testimony. To have assumed that this proceeding was invented and staged as a project of dramatic political fiction would be to presuppose the creative genius of a Shakespeare and the genius of a Belasco in stage production. The historical background and surrounding circumstances also lend credibility to the testimony. The reasoning which Sokolnikov and Radek applied in justification of their various activities and their hoped-for results were consistent with probability and entirely plausible."
>"The lesser accused, who were merely tools, amplified in great circumstantial detail their chronicle of crime, and in many instances gave indications that what they were then stating was being uttered for the first time. These and other facts, which I saw, compelled the belief that there may have been much redundant embroidery in the testimony, but that the consistent vein of truth ran through the fabric, establishing a definite political conspiracy to overthrow the present government."
>"On the face of the record in this case it would be difficult for me to conceive of any court, in any jurisdiction, doing other than adjudging the defendants guilty of violations of the law as set forth in the indictment and as defined by the statutes."
>"I have talked to many, if not all, of the members of the Diplomatic Corps here and, with possibly one exception, they are all of the opinion that the proceedings established clearly the existence of a political plot and conspiracy to overthrow the government."
>"The circumstantial detail, apparently at times surprising even to the prosecutor as well as to other defendants, which was brought out by the various accused, gave unintended corroboration to the gist of the charges. The manner of testifying of various accused and their bearing on the stand also had weight with me. The dispassionate, logical, detailed statement of Pyatakov and the impression of despairing candor, with which he gave it, carried conviction. So, too, with Sokolnikov. The old general, Muralov, was particularly impressive. He carried himself with a fine dignity and with the forthrightness of an old soldier. In his “last plea” he said:… 'I refuse counsel and I refuse to speak in my defense because I am used to defending myself with good weapons and attacking with good weapons. I have no good weapons with which to defend myself…. I don’t dare blame anyone for this; I, myself, am to blame. This is my difficulty. This is my misfortune….'"
>>

 No.379145

File: 1626331858590.png ( 1.76 MB , 1676x937 , porky is afraid stalin.png )

>>377868
>NKVD
>Not being professional
Look, either they were super-efficient killers that gulaged everyone, or they're incompetent and unprofessional; if you're going to be dogmatic stick to one. Otherwise have the presence of mind to understand that for most of the high-profile cases, there was plenty of evidence and confessions being among them. Moreover most of the purges affected political and military figures, not ordinary people and therefore, was exactly as is called - a purge of a 5th column, which is why Germany found itself unpleasantly surprised with it's outdated understanding of the USSR's abilities, letting it underestimate its foe and thus lose the war.
>>377834
>a weak soyboy westerner
See the problem with this obvious /pol/ bait is that neither tankies, nor Russian posters talk like this. You're so obvious it's funny.
>>377793
If you're not interested in learning all the institutional knowledge in the world wouldn't change your dumbass mind, so you're mocked instead. But let me be kind; there are sources posted on the topic in this thread, READ them and come back. No this isn't a case of "read a book" fallacy, this is a complicated subject that deals in hundreds of documents and a complex political situation that was not controlled by any one person nor was it unilateral. By and large most of the major figures prosecuted were found guilty, however afterwards Yezhov's own corruption in the footsteps of Yagoda prompted him to be replaced by Beria who proceeded to go over the files of thousands of people to have new investigations done on their guilt, which is why in 1940 and onward people like Rokosovsky, were released and restored to their prior posts. If this sounds like an oversimplification to you, that is because it is, the subject is far more complex than you realize and cannot be explained in a few pages, let alone a couple forum posts.
>>

 No.379146

>>378216
Lmao academia dismisses the Labour theory of value and Marxism in its entirety
I guess neoliberalism is the only possible economic model then
>>

 No.379171

>>>378216
> rejection of people like Furr by nearly everyone in the field
Except that's blatantly untrue. Furr has been at best accused of bias, however his citations, sources and claims are sound, and the only people "criticizing him" are self-aggrandizing "leftists" triggered about Stalin and hiding their ad hominum rants under accusations of him being a bad historian.
> the entire field of academic history to be a bourgeois psyop
Because it is? Franz Halder and Tippelskirch were the "authorities" on WW-2 history, dictating numerous lies and myths about the USSR that they knew were false. The 100 gorillions is promoted by history books in the USA and Europe, with historians like Getty and Naumov, being ignored despite the accuracy of their works.
The same applies to sciences and everything else, if there is a political, economic or social agenda to be had, the Western upper class will make sure to twist the information to fit their narrative.
>>

 No.379172

>>377342
>myths about gorillions killed by communists are widespread.
And widely combatted by well researched works that directly counter such myths.
>>

 No.379251

File: 1626339930591-0.jpg ( 72.93 KB , 976x616 , conquest bush.jpg )

File: 1626339930591-1.png ( 144.42 KB , 673x686 , david m glantz, when titan….png )

File: 1626339930591-2.png ( 162.08 KB , 494x734 , getty origins soviet histo….png )

>>378216
This is your beloved, gilded and noble field of Soviet academia and Western writing of history
Getty:
<Soviet history has no tradition of responsible source criticism. Scholars have taken few pains to evaluate bias, authenticity, or author- ship. Specialists have accepted "sources" that, for understandable rea- sons, are anonymously attributed (' 'Unpublished memoir of "), and treat them as primary. 2 Given the source difficulties, this tendency is understandable but not defensible. Because so much of the writing on the "Great Purges" is descended from, and based on, a rather uncritical acceptance of these accounts
David M glantz:
<The West ended up with a "german perspective of the war and it's only in the last 15 years that the Russian perspective has come out and all the battles the REd Army fought which were concealed for political reasons"
>>

 No.379265

All guilty. I don't care how many of them were rehabilitated later, the USSR was fully revisionist and led by traitors at that point.
>>

 No.379268

>>379251
>Specialists have accepted "sources" that, for understandable rea- sons, are anonymously attributed (' 'Unpublished memoir of "), and treat them as primary.
The irony being of course is that Getty is guilty of precisely that too.
>>

 No.379276

>>379265
how was it led by traitors when it was led by stalin, voroshilov, molotov, jagoda …
>>

 No.379279

>>379276
Kinda obvious he means rehabilitations that happened under cornman and later
>>

 No.379281

>>379251
Did you read the excerpts you poste, you asshat? Getty's point is that the trust people put into literature in the USSR, meant that, in the mid 80s and 90s, the claims of various anticommunist myth-spreaders went unquestioned. However this is a preface to the actual analysis of the archive documents and is Getty's personal evaluation of the situation, not a hardline fact as the rest of the paper and its citations display.
>Glantz
And? He was referring to materials made secret because of the Cold War which the USA actively promoted to push the Clean Wehrmacht myth and other garbage.
>>

 No.379282

>>379279
But Rehabilitation was initiated by Stalin and given to Beria, which is why many wrongly accused people were released and compensated for the miscarriage of justice.
>>

 No.379286

>>379282
Mate. Do you even read? He referred to DIFFERENT rehabilitation. Jesus fucking christ, why are you lot so clueless?
>which is why many wrongly accused people were released and compensated for the miscarriage of justice.
Most of the people were not released, but instead got reduced sentences because they still commited crimes but not antisoviet activity. You are mixing up different events from different times. Read a book.
>>

 No.379287

Building communism means mass arrests and shootings of people who may or may not be guilty of minor ofenses such as not taking the decisions of the politburo or the general secretary as edicts of god.

When you have a debate on whether to collectivize the agriculture or not, you simply throw into gulag all the ones who have a different opinion than yourself.

When you have a debate on whether NEP should continue or should immediately stop, the only solution is to put into gulag everyone who doesn't 100 % completely agree with what you think.

Also, how many people here heard about the Georgian crisis of 1922-1924 (when Lenin was alive still)
>>

 No.379290

>>379287
Weak bait, back to /pol/, shitlib
>>

 No.379295

>>379290
Building communims means throwing your comrade, who you fought shoulder to shoulder for 15 years, because once he was talking with a Menshevik in 1908 (at the same meeting you were present as well).
>>

 No.379297

>>379295
You are free to actually address the arguments presented in this thread. But i know you will not, because you have absolutely nothing to say. Seethe, it is entertaining to watch.
>>

 No.379300

There are no arguments in this thread, I have talked about the trial and the purges in general already.

When a guy says "not guilty" and then comes back the next day saying "guilty" it's not because the "cross-examination" has proven anything, only that they made a pinky promise they won't murder his kid and wife if he fucking confesses.

http://library.lol/main/B45D8F0264816C0FA4CB7F91A8AA8B7F

also, buharin also wrote some intruiging stuff while in prison
http://library.lol/main/BAA46ACD3A9834B4F87D2911D832A2D3
>>

 No.379302

>>379300
So much copium
>>

 No.379317

>>379302
Stalinist masterplan.

- kill all my comrades even after i've politically defeated them 5-10 years ago
- gather around me the brightest communism has to offer, such as Malenkov, Hruscev and many other giants of world communism who led us to Gorbachov and the downfall of the first and most powerful proletarian state in the history of our civilization
>>

 No.379331

>>379317
Cope, seethe etc
>>

 No.379359

>>379300
Bukharins widow acknowledges that Bukharin welcomed Ezhov into the head of the NKVD though on page 269-270 of the book you linked.
He knew that Ezhov was committing mass murder and the blood of the Ezhovschina is on Bukharins hands
The Ezhovschina was only stopped when Stalin was able to first strip Ezhov of powers, then maneuvre 'his man', Beria, at which point the repressions stopped and people began to be released
<One interesting fact that emerges from the primary sources now available - and, we note, available during the time Snyder was writing Bloodlands - is that Nikolai Bukharin, leading name among the Rightists and one of its leaders, knew about the Ezhovshchina as it was happening, and praised it in a letter to Stalin that he wrote from prison.
<Bukharin knew that Ezhov was a member of the Rightist conspiracy, as he himself was. No doubt that is why he welcomed Ezhov's appointment as head of the NKVD - a view recorded by his widow in her memoirs.(18 p.269/270 of the book you linked)
Bukharin knew that Ezhov was a member of the Rightist conspiracy, as he himself was. No doubt that is why he welcomed Ezhov's appointment as head of the NKVD - a view recorded by his widow in her memoirs. (18)
<In his first confession, in his now-famous letter to Stalin of December 10, 1937, and at his trial in March 1938 Bukharin claimed he had completely "disarmed" and had told everything he knew. But now we can prove that this was a lie. Bukharin knew that Ezhov was a leading member of the Rightist conspiracy - but did not inform on him. According to Mikhail Frinovsky, Ezhov's right-hand man, Ezhov probably promised to see that he would not be executed if he did not mention his own, Ezhov's, participation. This is documented in Mikhail Frinovskii's confession of April 11, 1939. Frinovskii was Ezhov's second-in-command.
< An active participant in investigations generally, Ezhov kept himself aloof from the preparation of this trial. Before the trial the face-to-face confrontations of the suspects, interrogations, and refining, in which Ezhov did not participate. He spoke for a long time with Yagoda, and that talk concerned, in the main, of assuring Yagodo that he would not be shot.
< Ezhov had conversations several times with Bukharin and Rykov and also in order to calm them assured them that under no circumstances would they be shot.(19)
<if Bukharin had told the truth - if he had, in fact, informed on Ezhov - Ezhov's mass murders could have been stopped in their tracks. The lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent people could have been saved.

<But Bukharin remained true to his fellow conspirators. He went to execution - an execution that Bukharin himself swore in his appeal for clemency that he deserved "ten times over" - without revealing Ezhov's participation in the conspiracy.


<This point cannot be stressed too much: the blood of the hundreds of thousands of innocent persons slaughtered by Ezhov and his men during 1937-1938, is on Bukharin's hands.

http://www.readmarxeveryday.org/bloodlies/ch06.html#18fnl
Bukharin's two appeals for clemency, both dated March 13, 1938, were reprinted in Izvestiia on September 2, 1992. They were rejected, and Bukharin was executed on March 15, 1938. I have translated them and put them online in English"(20)
>>

 No.379372

>>379359
Good. Now tell us the little story of who named Jezhov (Ezhov) to his position as head of NKVD and with what purpose?
>>

 No.379494

File: 1626357590433.jpg ( 163.35 KB , 677x1200 , 132_3_600.jpg )

>>369764
>based
-_-

>>369838
>In all likelihood some were guilty and some were innocent. During times of revolution, and even during peace, some innocent people get a bad deal. Anyone who incessantly harps on about innocents being swept up has neither the understanding required to properly engage in change nor the stomach.
The probability for you being guilty of a serious crime is always larger than 0 but smaller than 1.

Therefore, you should turn yourself in to the authorities.

>>369958
>He asked for the Archive to remain closed for 40 years
Ahahahahaha!
>>

 No.379561

>>369958
Holy FUCK could Trotsky have been ANY more of a fucking traitor???
>>

 No.379643

>>379286
>Do you even read? He referred to DIFFERENT rehabilitation.
Actually, he was extremely vague about what he was referring too, people call Stalin's USSR also revisionist because "muh Lenin puritanism".
>You are mixing up different events from different times. Read a book.
No, I'm being simple, I have read the books, faggot, don't be a pedant.
>>

 No.379649

>>379295
>bait this obvious
Back to reddit
>>379300
>only that they made a pinky promise they won't murder his kid and wife if he fucking confesses.
Except there is no evidence of that at all, and this was also addressed, see >>377288
>>

 No.379652

>>379494
>The probability for you being guilty of a serious crime is always larger than 0 but smaller than 1.
A smart-ass quip is not an argument, and neither is a garbage caricature
>>379372
Stalin as part of a decision made with advisors. See >>377288
<What is important here is that Khaustov admits the existence of a major conspiracy by Ezhov and concedes that Stalin was deceived by him. Ezhov admits as much in the confessions of his that we now have. Khaustov admits that Stalin acted in good faith on the basis of evidence presented to him by Ezhov, much of which must have been false.
>>

 No.379804

File: 1626368473341.jpg ( 103.46 KB , 476x457 , clown.jpg )

>>379145
>Look, either they were super-efficient killers that gulaged everyone, or they're incompetent and unprofessional; if you're going to be dogmatic stick to one.
NKVD weren't super professional in a judicial sense, as a prosecution side in a court of law.
Were they efficient and professional in currying out repressions? I honestly don't give a fuck, I guess it doesn't take much "professionalism" to round up a bunch of people and administer them a troika justice wholesale.

>there was plenty of evidence

Then give me that hard evidence. Don't give me fucking confessions form a prosecution side that not long after went full retarded and killed a whole bunch of innocent people.

>Moreover most of the purges affected political and military figures, not ordinary people

Bullshit. Furr agrees that in the purge a whole lot of innocent people were killed, he just makes Ezhov solely responsible with Stalin and the rest of the central committee all being gullible idiots, even tho there are nkvd execution lists with his signature.

>a 5th column

Go search for a fifth column under your bed retard. Ruskies and their never ending search for a "fifth column" man, totally brain dead.

>nor Russian posters talk like this

Какие-то проблемы чухло совковое? Ты же тут распинался дескать если не выдержал бутылки в жопе, то не коммунист. Ты можешь охуительные истории про неебаться какую профессиональную сторону обвинения рассказывать западным левакам которые уши развесили, но не людям которые знают реалии отечественного судопроизводства. Такая же падаль как ты оправдывает российский процент обвинительных приговоров, дескать такая охуительная у нас прокуратура и следаки, и в этом преемственность с совковым судопроизводством у нас как раз таки большая. Но ты давай и дальше всех кто с тобой не согласен клейми врагами народа и троцкистами, уебище необучаемое, так то ты точно всех убедишь.
>>

 No.379899

>>379804
Куча слов и ноль аргументов. Себе сказки на ночь рассказывай про страшных совков которые детей ели, шизик. В этом треде как и в куче предыдущих убедительно было доказано что судили этих гандонов за дело. Но так как аргументов у тебя нет, то только и остаеться что обсираться публично, повторяя один и тот же бред про то что все строилось исключительно на признаниях как сломанная пластинка. Хотя блять достаточно же открыть гугл и найти блять текст судебных заседаний чтобы увидеть что это бред.

Хули ты вообще на этой борде делаешь, нацик ебаный, пиздуй обратно на харкач или откуда ты там вылез.
>>

 No.380797

File: 1626400075682.jpeg ( 94.94 KB , 1080x720 , Так бля.jpeg )

>>379804
Сам Уёбывай, пидор
>I honestly don't give a fuck, I guess it doesn't take much "professionalism" to round up a bunch of people and administer them a troika justice wholesale.
So you admit that everything you've just stated is just your opinion based on what you care about, not what actual primary sources and accounts state? Good, though this suggests that the clown here is you, faggot.
>give me that hard evidence
It was posted, your harping about "muh confessions not being real" is inane and not an argument, especially when the WORLD was watching the proceedings and being privy to the documents presented as evidence by the prosecution, as explained for idiots already, a forced confession would not produce the detailed and excessively lengthy materials produced, as a framejob would only require a minimal amount for this. Instead we had speeches and declarations by people who were aware that what awaited them was execution for their guilt. Honestly, have you ever been at a trial before, let alone been under trial?
>Bullshit
No it isn't, the purges were specifically aimed at political and military figures, that's why it was a PURGE. It didn't involve ordinary people unless they were connected to politicians or military men.
>Furr agrees that in the purge a whole lot of innocent people were killed
Stop miswording him, he states quite clearly (as backed by the evidence posted repeatedly, that some innocent people did get caught up in it, because no judicial system is perfect, and given the scale of the trials, even a 1% innocent rate would be a few thousand people.
>he just makes Ezhov solely responsible with Stalin and the rest of the central committee all being gullible idiots
No that's not what he says at all you dumbfuck.
>there are nkvd execution lists with his signature
Yes, lists that were certain figures whose execution had to be signed off on by Stalin after their trials, it's the equivalent of the US president signing off on a decision by the Senate. As far as Stalin was aware the trials were done in good faith, given that Ezhov's purpose was to remove the taint aused by Yagoda's corruption and betrayal.
>search for a fifth column under your bed
>Ruskies
Ok retarded glowfag, the leather club is down the street, I'm sure they have more paint you can huff.
>Какие-то проблемы
<Бла бла бла
>не людям которые знают реалии отечественного судопроизводства
>как ты оправдывает
Чего блять? Вот точно Гугл Транзлятор подключил.
А про 'реалий' мамке раскажи, у меня дядька на Колыме отсидел 7 лет, а прабабку депортировали в Казахстан, и не кто не ныл. Перегибали палку? Иногда, но такое было трудное время и без компов не легко за всем уследить.
>давай и дальше всех кто с тобой не согласен клейми врагами народа
А это уже простое Копи-Паста, иди на хуй KamikadzeD
>>

 No.380899

File: 1626405361565.png ( 2.59 KB , 275x183 , download.png )

>>379804
>Go search for a fifth column under your bed retard. Ruskies and their never ending search for a "fifth column" man, totally brain dead.

Hot take: France was toppled by a fifth column. Where do you think they found all these people willing to form the Vichy government? Their inability/deliberate refusal to purge like the USSR lead to their instant defeat in 1940.
>>

 No.381225

>>380899
>Hot take: France was toppled by a fifth column. Where do you think they found all these people willing to form the Vichy government?
I don't think they were "fifth column", they were just opportunist faggots.

>Their inability/deliberate refusal to purge like the USSR lead to their instant defeat in 1940.

well, USSR still had people like Vlasov and a mass of deserters in 1941.
>>

 No.381234

>>381225
>well, USSR still had people like Vlasov and a mass of deserters in 1941.
And without purges there would be dozens of vlasovs. And desertion is a completely different thing and it wasn't even all that massive all things considered.
>>

 No.381239

>>379804
>search for 5th column under your bed
There you go, found it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II
The Nazis had some of the best espionage and diplomats. The entire of europe fell into their lap at the slightest touch of the Nazi army
But for some reason every faggot that was shot during that period was innocent
>>

 No.381293

File: 1626428003553.png ( 34.28 KB , 823x171 , Screenshot_20210716_163156.png )

>>

 No.381323

File: 1626431908024-0.png ( 667.26 KB , 796x906 , Molotov-ribbentrop pact.png )

File: 1626431908024-1.png ( 196.02 KB , 874x892 , Telegraph - Molotov Ribben….png )

File: 1626431908024-3.png ( 299.11 KB , 511x1500 , stalin and molotov based.png )

>>381293
That was based collaboration though

Non-based collaboration
>German forces crossed the border into neutral Denmark, in violation of a German–Danish treaty of non-aggression signed the previous year. After two hours the Danish government surrendered.

Based Collaboration
>The events of the summer of 1939 show the fateful consequences of Hitler's lack of statesmanlike qualities and a world-oriented political vision, and make him look very inferior to his Russian counterpart. With regard to political intelligence and political style, their relationshipis like that of a gambler to a chess grandmaster, and the assertion that the Furher fell like a schoolboy into the trap set for him by Moscow can hardly be exaggerated.
- Ernest Topitsch, Stalin's War, p.4

>After the conclusion of this treaty Hitler and Ribbentrop may have regarded themselves as statesmen of the highest calibre; instead their actions betrayed a frightening lack of political intelligence. Whereas Stalin had thoroughly pondered over the content and phraseology of the agreements, his opposite numbers were obviously incapable of carefully reviewing the consequences which might result for Germany from these fateful documents.

In point of fact, the two treaties fitted in perfectly with Soviet long-term strategy, to involve Germany in a war with the British and the French, make it dependent on Russia and, if the opportunity should arise, bring about it's extinction as an independent power.
>Far sighted as he was, Stalin was already thinking at this early stage of obtaining a favourable starting point for the realisation of such plans
-Ibid
>>

 No.381378

>>381225
>I don't think they were "fifth column", they were just opportunist faggots.
nah they were way worse, see Anne Lacroix Riz "Le choix de la défaite"
>>

 No.381386

>>381323
It wasn't exactly a collaboration. I was referring to shit like "secret" part of molotov-ribentropp pact about spheres on influence that is an absolute fake and to another fake about joint military parade. The usual liberal bullshit. And of course the page is missing shitload of actual collaboration from capitalist countries like Britain, USA and France.

But yes, MR pact was last ditch attempt to change the incoming war and it worked.
>>

 No.381722

>>381386
This. The secret protocol is absolutely 100% an anti-communist anti-Soviet fabrication the US "found" in the nazi documents.
>>

 No.381730

>>381234
Vlasov's justification is basically the same as every trot/anarchist/socdem tract against the USSR.
>>

 No.381737

File: 1626454611408-0.png ( 2.49 MB , 1860x1056 , ClipboardImage.png )

File: 1626454611408-1.png ( 106.51 KB , 320x243 , ClipboardImage.png )

File: 1626454611408-2.png ( 2.09 MB , 1600x1110 , ClipboardImage.png )

>>381386
>an absolute fake and to another fake about joint military parade
Bro there are literally pictures of it
>>

 No.381739

>>381386
the most obvious proof that the Secret protocols was fake bullshit is that they did not reveal them in the starting/middle years of the cold war, when they had west germany under them.
>>

 No.381779

File: 1626455745013.gif ( 1.76 MB , 400x206 , 008.gif )

>>381737
Lmao, the absolute state of stalinoids.
How can anyone take them at their word after they pull shit like this?
>>

 No.381792

File: 1626456053826.png ( 7.63 KB , 194x259 , images.png )

>>381737
>>381779
>HOLY SHIT GUYS THEIR SOLDIERS STOOD NEAR EACH OTHER AFTER TOPPLING THIS SHITTY REACTIONARY BRITSH PUPPET STATE THAT NOBODY LIKED!!!!!1111111 UNDENIABLE PROOF OF LE RED-BROWN ALLIANCE. THIS MEANS HITLER AND STALIN WERE CLOSE PERSONAL FRIENDS AND AGREED ON EVERYTHING AND COMMUNISTS ARE ACTUALLY NAZIS AND HORSESHOE THEORY IS CORRECT AND GEORGE ORWELL WASN'T A RETARD
>>

 No.381800

>>

 No.381804

>>381792
kek the anarchoids here are a seethin' cuz they had a lot of their boiz wanting to topple Cuba and they want to smeer MLs.
Guess what faggots, you will be ML in a year or two, enjoy your time in ignorance!
>>

 No.381810

>>381792
>NOOOO IT WASN'T A PARADE IT WAS JUST A GROUP OF UNAFFILIATED INDIVIDUALS BELONGING TO TWO NATION'S ARMIES STANDING IN THE SAME AREA!! NOOOOOOO!!!
>>

 No.381835

File: 1626457312635.jpeg ( 22.93 KB , 263x400 , we.jpeg )

>>381792
Nice goalpost moving soyposter. First you claim there was no parade, then you strawman your opponents hysterically when proven wrong.

Also I prefer Zamaytin, beautifully written and banned straight in the 1921 baby, hit a nerve of the newly formed one party "soviet republic".
>>

 No.382185

>>378869
I guess it depends on the university. In my neck of the woods I'm unaware of a single graduate program that doesn't have a minimum foreign language requirement.
>>378889
Again, I wasn't defending Getty.
>>

 No.382331

>>381737
Can you show me photos of joint military parade? Germany withdrawed forces under the watch of soviet commanders, then soviets entered the city. For some reasons there are no photos of joint parade, despite this event obviously being filmed.

Pathetic
>>

 No.382335

File: 1626470493091.jpg ( 535.03 KB , 739x739 , your meds.jpg )

>>

 No.382342

>>382185
>Again, I wasn't defending Getty.
You are dodging the question. You said that behaviour like this would get him stripped of institutional funding. I don't believe he is as of now. Actually, can you even show me an example of someone who lied about USSR history in favor of proky version of it and was stripped of any funcding or punished in any other way?

Getty is not even the worst of the bunch, seriously. The whole field is not about science it is about apologia and propaganda.
>>

 No.382344

>>382335
Nah, but i gladly will look at the photos of soviets and germans marching together. After all, it was joint parade, right? Photos above show nothing of the sort.
>>

 No.382354

Several questions from a well-meaning ML who wants to learn more about this field:

Did Nikolaev act alone in shooting Kirov?

Who was in contact with Trotsky and plotting against Stalin?

Were Zinoviev, Kamenev, Bukharin, Rykov, Krestinsky, and others all guilty and what for?

What was the role of the NKVD in this? What did Yagoda and Yezhov do and why were they killed?

What is the deal with the Tukhachevsky Affair? Is it confirmed that he made pro-German remarks and that the Czechs/French reported this to Moscow?
>>

 No.382359

>>382354
If you are really well-meaning, then you can A) read this thread, it definitely has answers to several of your questions B) read trial transcripts, though you have to be careful since i have seen mostly heavily edited versions in english language. Still, wouldn't hurt. Unfortunately there is no transcript of the first trial since it was purged under cornman, though there is some reconstruction of it's parts from newspaper publication of that time.
>>

 No.382415

>>381737
Debunked by Istmat here: http://wiki.istmat.info/%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%84:%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4_%D0%B2_%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5
There was no joint military parade. What there was is a formal ceremony between officers as the German army was withdrawing from Brest. The type of military formality that happens every single time two foreign armies meet.
>>

 No.382435

File: 1626474313040.png ( 11.65 MB , 3517x2900 , ClipboardImage.png )

This is how a joint parade should look like
>>

 No.382495

>>382342
You never asked a question until now; stop twisting my words. I said they would ideally be stripped of funding; I never said any academic actually has. I'm well aware of how much Anglosphere Russian history is full of clowns (just look at the 'Totalitarian' school). Maybe its just because I have more familiarity with the art history side of it, but I still think there's some decent scholarship being put out. Sue me; rejecting it wholesale is just ridiculous.
>>

 No.382506

>>382495
>You never asked a question until now
The question was implied. Unless you want me to start joking about your reading comprehension, don't try to pretend that you didn't evade it.
>I said they would ideally
So, not in reality, right? Why mention it then if not a single example can be provided?
>rejecting it wholesale is just ridiculous.
It isn't from a practical perspective. You can get some decent things from it if you are very educated yourself on this specific topic and can separate grain from chaff, but if you are not, it is better to just reject it as a whole rather then try and find a couple of pennies in this large pile of shit. Especially if you just want to get a broad picture on some stuff.
>>

 No.382520

File: 1626477955993-0.jpg ( 17.39 KB , 277x396 , 229936_60__41.JPG )

File: 1626477955993-1.jpg ( 93.43 KB , 583x600 , 476614_600.jpg )

>>381234
>And without purges there would be dozens of vlasovs.
well, there were dozens of Vlasovs. just check out who were the leaders of ROA and KONR. These people weren't some former White army cadres.

if you actually look at biographies of nazi collaborators then you will see mostly a bunch of opportunists and not some people who believed in the great ideals of national soycialism and who are prepared to do espionage for Reich.

>desertion wasn't even all that massive all things considered.

iirc there were 1,7 desserters that's not exactly a small number
>>

 No.382523

>>382354
>Is it confirmed that he made pro-German remarks and that the Czechs/French reported this to Moscow?
there is that story that president Beneš gave soviets some information on Tukhachevsky when Czechoslovakia signed a pact with the USSR in 1935. but it is not confirmed and there is a high probability that it is a myth.
>>

 No.382524

>>382520
*1,7 million
>>

 No.382525

>>382520
Obviously i meant that not only army under Vlasov would turn, we would have several of them and most likely in more important places and much more crucial time.
>ot some people who believed in the great ideals of national soycialism and who are prepared to do espionage for Reich
Are you implying that only faithful nazis would spy on behalf of Reich or what? That would be incredibly wrong assumption.
>iirc there were 1,7 desserters that's not exactly a small number
Less than that and given the conditions of the eastern front it not exactly a big number.
>>

 No.382547

>>382506
>Why mention it then if not a single example can be provided?
Because the field of Anglosphere Russian history in general extends well beyond those who've managed to get book deals (like Getty); some of the scholarship is worse, others are much better. I remember having this same conversation on Stalin biographies a couple months ago. Rejecting it wholesale on the false assumption that all burger academics supposedly don''t care to read or speak the language is retarded. It's pseudo-intellectual trite.
>You can get some decent things from it if you are very educated yourself on this specific topic and can separate grain from chaff, but if you are not, it is better to just reject it as a whole rather then try and find a couple of pennies in this large pile of shit.
In a field like Russian history, you have to take extra care in cross-referencing for reasons already cited; threads like these are a testament to that! It's not exclusive to this specific topic either. Everyone starts out wanting to get a broad picture, but if you're anyone like me, you'll eventually get to a point where you're pirating articles from academic journals or some shit. It's easy to find a 'couple of pennies'—like, there's nothing 'practical' about doing research. It's time-consuming and it'll piss you off. Better that than staying ignorant, though.
>>379145
Just now seeing this, sorry. Believe me, I wish there was a book (hence my initial snarky post); I appreciate the tl;dr and will look through the rest of the thread more closely.
>>

 No.382553

>>382525
>Are you implying that only faithful nazis would spy on behalf of Reich or what?
no, I don't. I am talking about concrete people. About amoebas like Laval, a person who can sign Franco-Soviet pact and then do appeasement policies with fascist Italy.

Nazis didn't need someone with similar ideology or someone who was unnecessary servile to them. They always put in the collaborationist administration some old burgeois cadres, who will do anything they are told because they are either afraid of them or because they are just people who cuck for any power, and who will also lie to themselves that they can soften the nazi policies. but usually none of those people was a german/ italian spy.

you can't solve nazi collaborationist question with repressions, that's not possible. you never know who will behave as an opportunist. and the case of the USSR showed that. Vlasovs, Bunyachenkos, Zhilenkovs and Kononovs survived the repressions. (plus there were a lot of jews sentenced to death during the processes and they wouldn't gain anything from nazi invasion)
>>

 No.383089

>>382520
Would've been a lot more without the purges. Compare the USSR to France, Holland or Norway. And there were former white guardists like Krasnov and Shkuro who joined the fascist invasion.
>>

 No.383225

>>382553
>you can't solve nazi collaborationist question with repressions, that's not possible. you never know who will behave as an opportunist. and the case of the USSR showed that. Vlasovs, Bunyachenkos, Zhilenkovs and Kononovs survived the repressions. (plus there were a lot of jews sentenced to death during the processes and they wouldn't gain anything from nazi invasion)
The most retarded shit in the world
Whilst the rest of Europe collapsed like a house of cards because of fifth columnists, crypto fascists and nazi sympathisers (Denmark falling in 2 hours/France falling in 6 weeks) it was only the Soviets that fought a long and brutal war then extinguished Nazism.
Literally the only country to enact repressions was the one that didn't crumble
Not even crumbling when the Nazis were 10 miles outside of Moscow.
The repressions worked and the famous Document 170 every ShitLib and trot cries about which called for the shooting of "active anti-Soviet elements": criminals, kulaks who had escaped labour camps who are actively committing sabotage, former kulaks who had been part of fascist/terrorist or bandit groups, Persons unmasked by investigators and whose evidence is verified by materials obtained by investigative agencies and who are the most hostile and active members of Cossack-White Guard insurrectionary organizations slated for liquidation and fascist, terroristic, and espionage-saboteur counterrevolu- tionary formations
etc.

Now even if 1 in 100 people shot is innocent thats still hundreds/thousands of innocent people shot. The trots, cuckservatives and ShitLibs focus on these innocent people and claim them to be the vast majority.
They were not.

Let's look at what bourgeois sources were saying at the time regarding the Great Purge and the elimination of the fifth column inside USSR

<On the train that day, that thought lingered in my mind. It was rather extraordinary, when one stopped to think of it, that in this last Nazi invasion not a word had appeared of “inside work” back of the Russian lines. There was no so-called “internal aggression” in Russia co-operating with the German High Command. Hitler’s march into Prague in 1939 was accompanied by the active military support of Henlein’s organizations in Czechoslovakia. The same was true of his invasion of Norway. There were no Sudeten Henleins, no Slovakian Tisos, no Belgian De Grelles, no Norwegian Quislings in the Soviet picture.

<Thinking over these things, there came a flash in my mind of a possible new significance to some of the things that happened in Russia when I was there. Upon my arrival in Washington, I hastened to re-read my old diary entries and, with the permission of the State Department, went through some of my official reports.
<None of us in Russia in 1937 and 1938 were thinking in terms of “Fifth Column” activities. The phrase was not current. It is com- paratively recently that we have found in our language phrases descriptive of Nazi technique such as “Fifth Column” and “internal aggression.”
<It is only within the last two years, through the Dies Committee and the F.B.I., that there have been uncovered the activities of German organizations in this country and in South America, and that we have seen the actual work of German agents operating with traitors in Norway, Czecho- slovakia, and Austria, who betrayed their country from within in co-operation with a planned Hitler attack.
<These activities and methods, apparently, existed in Russia, as a part of the German plan against the Soviets, as long ago as 1935.
<It was in 1936 that Hitler made his now famous Nuremberg speech, in which he clearly indicated his designs upon the Ukraine.
<The Soviet government, it now appears, was even then acutely aware of the plans of the German high military and political com- mands and of the ‘‘inside work” being done in Russia, preparatory to German attack upon Russia.
<As I ruminated over this situation, I suddenly saw the picture as I should have seen it at the time. The story had been told in the so-called treason or purge trials of 1937 and 1938 which I had attended and listened to. In re-examining the record of these cases and also what I had written at the time from this new angle, I found that practically eve^ device of German Fifth Columnist activity, as we now know it, was disclosed and laid bare by the confessions and testimony elicited at these trials of self-confessed ‘‘Quislings” in Russia.
<The extraordinary testimony of Krestinsky, Bukharin, and the rest would appear to indicate that the Klremlin’s fears were well justified. For it now seems that a plot existed in the beginning of November, 1936, to project a coup d’etat^ with Tukhatchevsky at its head, for May of the following year. Apparently it was touch and go at that time whether it actually would be staged.
<But the government acted with great vigour and speed. The Red Army generals were shot and the whole party organization was purged and thoroughly cleansed. Then it came out that quite a few of those at the top were seriously infected with the virus of the con- spiracy to overthrow the government, and were actually working with the Secret Service organizations of Germany and Japan.
-Joseph Davies (US Ambassador), Mission To Moscow https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.209203

<We were all horrified by that purge. We forgot the very meaning of the term. The dictionary defines "purge" as to "make physically and spirtually clean".

<That purge eliminated Russia's Fifth Column. I found no British or American correspondent in Russia who thought that the famous confessions made by Radek, Tukhachevsky, Bukharin, Rykov, Krestinky, Pletnov, Rosengoltz and the others had been extorted by torture.
<Under Soviet law these and other thousands who had been affiliated with them had been guilty of treason and deserved the death penalty.
<Had only the Low Countries and Poland and Norway and the other slave states eliminated their own traitors how much happier their fate would have been
-Quentin Reynolds (American journalist and ww2 correspondent), Only The Stars Are Neutral, 1943, p.93 https://ia902908.us.archive.org/9/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.58208/2015.58208.Only-The-Stars-Are-Neutral.pdf

<We may not understand the intricacies of Marxism, but we should have known that the grave Hitler has been digging for conservatives and democrats alike was intentionally made big enough to bury the Russians as well. Fortunately, unlike out diplomats, the Russians did realise the dangers and that is the reason for their ruthless suppression of fifth columnists.

<The executions which so horrified us and were termed enigmatic and barbaric, should have been seen in a different light by an intelligent diplomacy, particularly if they considered the fate of Norway and France and the role of the fifth columnists played in those two countries.
<A clever diplomat could have willingly admitted that a little well-directed shooting in France and Belgium on the Russian model might have saved Brussels, Oslo, Amsterdam and Paris.
George Sava, War Without Guns: The Psychological Front, 1943,
>>

 No.383228

>>382547
I see you didn't actualy answered my question here. You can't even give me an example of some porky academic getting punished for bad behaviour yet you still continue to push your anti-intellectual tripe that field that is nothing but propaganda has some merit to it. And no you fucking piece of shit retard, if you could actually read you would notice that i did not dismiss them "because the don't speak russian" thought it is not a point in their favor, i dismissed them because they all do same shady shit that Getty does. You are just trying to pretend like Getty is the only bad apple after i directly showed how he is being dishonest in his choice of sources. Fuck you shitlib.
>>

 No.383229

>>382553
>no, I don't. I am talking about concrete people.
Yes you do. That was basically the only thing in your post that could resemble an argument.

>you can't solve nazi collaborationist question with repressions, that's not possible.

History shows that you can. USSR was in a much better position in this compared to almost every other country that has german spies infesting them. Shove it.
>there were a lot of jews sentenced to death during the processes and they wouldn't gain anything from nazi invasion
I guess you are drinking that natsoc kool aid after all. Jews collaborated even in Germany and Poland. Ethnicity has nothing to do with profits. You are actually nmot a marxist, are you? Some sort of anarkiddie or shitlib?
>>

 No.383324

>>383225
Excellent post, Mission to Moscow is a very interesting read.
https://espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/moscow-trials/
>>

 No.383414

>>381737
not 1 of these photos shows a parade lmao;
>>

 No.383453

>>383414
The synthetic and anticommunist left do make me laugh
They piss in your face and tell you its raining

This i dont even attribute to malice though…They're just fucking retards

Look athis pair of retards for eg >>381779 >>381835
They can stare at a picture and because someones told them its a parade they negate what their eyes are showing them
Or perhaps they're too retarded to even know what a parade is?
The answer is literally a coin toss
>>

 No.383457

>>383414
Why are there cars driving past some officers stood on a podium surrounded by soldiers?
>>

 No.383461

>>383229
>Jews collaborated even in Germany and Poland
when they were facing almost certain death in concentration camps for the most part…
>>

 No.383476

Starting at 11:30
https://archive.org/details/1939-09-21-UfA-Tonwoche-473
>Nach achtzehn Tagen Krieg konnte das Oberkommando der Wehrmacht melden: "Der Feldzug in Polen ist beendet." Der Oberbefehlshaber des Heeres, Generaloberst von Brauchitsch, zeichnet besonders verdiente Soldaten aus.
>Am achtzehnten Tage des Feldzuges trafen sich in Brest-Litowsk die deutschen Truppen mit den von Osten anr�ckenden sowjetrussischen Formationen.
>Hier wurde nach kurzen Verhandlungen die Demarkationslinie im Einzelnen festgelegt.
>Nach diesen wichtigen Verhandlungen, die viele fromme W�nsche der Westlichen Demokratien zu nichte machten, wurde in Brest-Litowsk eine feierliche Form der Abl�sung gewählt.
>Die kommandierenden Generale der deutschen und sowjetrussischen Truppen nahmen gemeinsam den Vorbeimarsch der Formationen ab.
Translation
<After eighteen days of war the Wehrmacht High Command was able to declare: "The Polish campaign is over." The supreme commander of the troops Colonel General von Brauchitsch decorates the especially well served soldiers.
<On the eighteenth day of the campaign the German troops meet Soviet Russian formations advancing from the east.
<Here will the demarcation line be fixed in details after short negotiations.
<After these important negotiations that nullified numerous pious hopes of the Western Democracies, a festive form of settling the matter was selected in Brest-Litovsk.
<Die kommandierenden Generale der deutschen und sowjetrussischen Truppen nahmen gemeinsam den Vorbeimarsch der Formationen ab.The commanding generals of the German and Soviet Russian troops jointly reviewed the march-past of the formations.
What did the Germans mean by this?
>>

 No.383483

>>383229
>calls other people nazis
<anyways, back to the filthy jews backstabbing poland and germany…
>>

 No.383487

>>383089
>And there were former white guardists like Krasnov and Shkuro who joined the fascist invasion.
I mean yeah, but these people were in minority in the whole Vlasov movement. the old white emigres often refused to collaborate with Vlasov because he was a former communist
>>

 No.383497

>>383229
>I guess you are drinking that natsoc kool aid after all. Jews collaborated even in Germany and Poland.
uigha are you fucking high or something? do you realise that the Judenrat organizations weren't collaborating voluntarily? these people just wanted to save their ass from concentration camps.

you call people nazis but you yourself sound like your average polish nationalist whining about jewish nazis.
>>

 No.383509

>>383497
mmm what better way to save yourself from concentration camp than literally sending your kin to the concentration camps and at the end yourself as well
>>

 No.383550

>>383509
> literally sending your kin to the concentration camps and at the end yourself as well
yeah, it were the jews themselves who were sending them to camps and not the nazis
>>

 No.383570

>>383550
jews literally formed councils in Germany which decided who to send, they made all the lists and gave them to the nazis (they thought that it will save them from the fate they sent their kin into)
>>

 No.383640

>>383570
yeah, that's what I am talking about. but these people hadn't same motivation neither as Vlasovs or Quislings nor as the people who thought that they can make the nazi regime better. unlike most of europeans, jews were under direct existential threat.
>>

 No.383784

>>383640
That's actually literally motivation of Valsov, after his army got surrounded.

>unlike most of europeans, jews were under direct existential threat.

Regular jew perhaps, porkies weren't. Look no further than Soros. His family actually profited from it.

>>383497
You are quite retarded. You are the only one here who thinks in terms of race which is why i said stuff about drinking natsoc kool aid. I guess i got that right, since all you could do in response is "no u nazi!" despote me literally saying that ethnicity has nothing to do with profits. Truth hurts, right?
>>

 No.384110

>>383784
dude, could you please explain why jews would collaborate with nazis in the upcoming invasion? the same nazis who wanted them exterminated

this is such a fucking retarded point
>>

 No.384290

>>384110
Read a book, uygha. Imbecile shitlib like you shouldn't even be on this board.
>>

 No.384301

>>384110
Might have something to do with how Jews are scum who will sell out their own children for a chance at an extra shekel. Plus their holy books state that 6 million of their kind have to be purged in order to establish a clean Jewish race for the coming of the Messiah, hence why purebloods “miraculously” survived while mongrels didn’t
>>

 No.384309

>>384301
Go back to your filth cave, /pol/yp
>>

 No.384332

>>384309
Hard pass, the Jews benefited from Nazism and vice versa, exactly why would I side with them?
>>

 No.384350

>>384290
well, it's a good question. it is a reason why we talk about jews after all.

the original point was that repressions can't prevent collaboration and that a lot of people who senteced to death (or prison) during the Moscow trials were jews. and jews wouldn't have any motivation to support the nazi regime.
>>

 No.384419

>>383225
>The same was true of his invasion of Norway. There were no Sudeten Henleins, no Slovakian Tisos, no Belgian De Grelles, no Norwegian Quislings in the Soviet picture.
well, that's pretty uninformed take. just look up what was happening in Ukraine when the nazis came, or in Baltics or what did Crimean Tatars or Chechens do.

>Document 170

?
maybe you mean "Prikaz 00447" ?
>>

 No.384432

File: 1626555834647.jpeg ( 74.31 KB , 645x970 , 1617514738457.jpeg )

>>383784
>Look no further than Soros. His family actually profited from it.

<you are drinkin nazi kool aid XDDDD

>no u
<NOOOOO!!!! YOU CAN'T SAY THAT!!!

fucking kys, /pol/ homo
>>

 No.384436

>>383784
>That's actually literally motivation of Valsov, after his army got surrounded.
Vlasov hadn't spent a day in a POW camp. he wasn't forced to collaborate by condition, he started collaborating immediately.
>>

 No.384473

>Yagoda
executed for anti-soviet activity
>Ezhov
executed for anti-soviet activity
>Beria
executed for anti-soviet activity
>Abakumov
executed for anti-soviet activity

incredible. so this was the institution responsible for purging the spies, the saboteurs, the anti soviet elements, the vile dogs of fascism or some shit. yet it was full of antisovietchiks itself. curious
>>

 No.384544

>>384473
no you don't understand, counter revs were purging other counter revs that purged other counter revs, 4d russian roulette, Stalin was a genius!
>>

 No.384601

>>384473
The fact that the OGPU/NKVD was targeted for penetration and subversion by imperialists shows that all of Soviet society was permeated by the problem.
>>

 No.385679

>>384601
so the reasonable thing to do is to sentence 1 million people to gulag and shoot tens of thousands
>>

 No.385695

>>385679
If its the difference between winning and losing ww2….absolutely
>>

 No.385707

>>385695
>If its the difference between winning and losing ww2….absolutely
yeah, totally not false cause fallacy here. USSR only won because they killed so many people.
>>

 No.385769

>>385679
Guilty people, yes.
>>

 No.398723

>>384601
>The fact that the OGPU/NKVD was targeted for penetration and subversion by imperialists shows that all of Soviet society was permeated by the problem.
or maybe that the society was suffering from retarded spy-mania?
>>

 No.398732

>>385679
actually, everyone but Stalin was in gulag, tankie
>>

 No.398735

>>398732
actually, everyone but Stalin was a spy, anarkiddie
>>

 No.398736

>>398735
… which is why they were all in gulag, tankie
>>

 No.398738

>>398735
i know for a fact that 200 million people were in gulag for their political activities and being spies
including your mom
>>

 No.398743

File: 1627151982302.png ( 39.89 KB , 258x273 , 1478951539846.png )

>>

 No.398748

>>398743
yes, i am incredibly mad and upset
this is literally my face right now
after all it has been exposed that every person on te planet was gulaged for spy activity and many more shot
you got me :(
>>

 No.398753

the quality content of leftypol
mad?
post a wojak edit at someone and you won the argument because just look at how stupid they look in the charicature, lol!
true and genuine board culture, thank the mods for cultivating this
>>

 No.398757

File: 1627152600724.png ( 141.56 KB , 2688x2688 , 1344177706902.png )

Why is this thread such a mess?
>>

 No.398804

>>398757
because the trials were a mess
>>

 No.398823

>>398753
all the relevant argumentation have been made already by the people actually knowledgeable on the subject, there is nothing more to do except shitposting
>>

 No.398932

File: 1627159879154.jpg ( 144.63 KB , 640x480 , eV3zePYFV2w.jpg )

>1st Moscow Trial
<no material evidence, except false passport of Olberg and magazine "Byuleten' Oppozicii" found in Goltzman's suitcase
<the group is accused of preparing assasination of Postyshev and Kosior who were later "found" to be anti-sovietchiks and trotskyite spies
<epic story about hotel Bristol

>2nd Moscow process

<jews Radek (one of the authors of the stalin constitution, btw) and Trotsky were collaborating with nazi intelligence and wanted a war between USSR and Germany
<Pyatakov teleported himself to Oslo

>3rd Moscow Trial

<the group wanted to balkanize USSR because that would totally help them to rule over the territory
<Krestinsky claims that he hadn't gave his testimony voluntarily
<the group is accused of conspiracy against Lenin (especially Bukharin) by prosecutor Vyshinsky who was a police comissar in 1917 and was getting orders to arrest Lenin and was member of menshevik party up until 1920.

yeah, some cool and believe stories we have here, I am literally a stalinist now
>>

 No.398970

So, if Stalin was right then the most of people who did the October revolution were bunch of assholes? (except him and Lenin)

Same thing with his friends, colleagues and even authors of Stalins constitution?

wow, looks like Stalin was more obsessed with decommunization than you average ukrainian nationalist
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 No.399046

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 No.399049

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 No.399072

>>399046
>>399049
Woah look at all those traitorous 5th column reactionary trotskyist-fascist-bonapartist spies ! Good thing Stalin liquidated them so that the USSR was ready for the next war! With all these enemies dead it would probably only take 3 months of fighting since the enemy's foreign assets have all been destroyed, right?
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 No.399091

>>371613
I like how this comment got 0 replies and the thread expanded so much. I repeat my questi, why the fuck do you people care at all about this topic? It is purely just a discussion that brings no benefit, and is only for the purpose of being had for pepple to entertain themselves with fighting out takes. Why the fuck do you do this sorting of gnat shit out of pepper? My god, imagine what we could do if we put all this energy into building a real fucking movement and not just screeming wether mustache man bad or not.
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 No.399132

>>371613
>>399091
>you can only criticize Stalin for things I want!!!1
ok
>My god, imagine what we could do if we put all this energy into building a real fucking movement and not just screeming wether mustache man bad or not.
imagine expecting an imageboard to build a movement
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 No.399133

>>369958
All the trots became neocons in the 50s
Say no more
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 No.399136

>>399091
The debate has implications on organisation and authority inside of what could happen within said movement.
Basically, is repeating the structures of the Bolsheviks good? If Stalin was right about all these people, then nothing needs changing. If he was wrong then there's a serious internal threat.
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 No.399157

>>399136
Either the Bolsheviks had more traitors in them than actual comrades, or the an air of pathological paranoia swept through the organization and killed scores upon scores of honest revolutionaries and talent. Either way, some hard lessons, along with changes are an unavoidable necessity.
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 No.399164

>>399157
Yeah, there's far more to it than just Stalin, Bolsheviks and Russia. It's about so much more which is why people debate it to death.
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 No.400312

>>398823
They were already made like 10 similar thread ago tbh
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 No.400325

>>398823
>>400312
nah, it's just stalinoids refusing to accept reality
>>

 No.400340

>>400325
So are you saying that all of the Bolsheviks, except for Stalin and Lenin actually weren't Nazi spies, who wanted to destroy the USSR since 1905?
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 No.400346

>>

 No.400357

>>400325
All your bullshit has been debunked long time ago, especially one about "old bolsheviks". In fact it was done so in this very thread, but you libshit either don't read, or you are persitent in your delusion. You post some bullshit, get debunked, leave thread without answering and then return some time later to post same shit over and over again. It's quite pathetic, you know.
>>

 No.400369

>>385679
Necessary to remove the fifth column. After 1938, when Beria took over the NKVD, the numbers shot dropped enormously. It's important to remember local officials often showed their own initiative in rooting out traitors. A lot of people the Soviet state had to rely on in its early years could finally be rooted out.
>>398723
Undoubtedly some innocents were caught up in the crossfire but there were countless plots against the USSR during this period and before.
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 No.400376

>>400357
>All your bullshit has been debunked long time ago, especially one about "old bolsheviks"
yeah, and what was debunked about it? the only thing I've seen in this thread is claims that repressions totally helped USSR to win the war (and failing to explain how) and how there totally were material proofs to the guilt of le trotskyite-zinovievite-bukharinite opposition, but no examples of material proofs, yet no examples were shown

also, if you want to debunk the old bolsheviks myth, then debunk these images >>399046
>>399049. where did all these people go? to french riviera?
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 No.400386

>>400369
>Necessary to remove the fifth column.
>Beria
Beria literally admitted in 1953, that he was member of illegal anti soviet organization "Mussavat". looks like literally anynone in the party was the fifth column

>It's important to remember local officials often showed their own initiative in rooting out traitors.

so did local officials in Nazi Germany. Or anywhere else. snitching exists. so?

>Undoubtedly some innocents were caught up in the crossfire but there were countless plots against the USSR during this period and before.

yeah, but the problem is that Bukharin, Zinoviev, Kamenev or Radek weren't involved in any. They were innocent in most of the things they were accused of. Especially in collaborating with Nazi Germany and provoking it to start a war with the USSR.

The Great Purge was McCarthyism on steroids. Prove me wrong
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 No.400394

>>400376
>yeah, and what was debunked about it?
How about you just read? Reading is not your thing, isn't it?

> the only thing I've seen in this thread is claims that repressions totally helped USSR to win the war (and failing to explain how)

Then work on your reading comprehension. Just because the explanations do not conform to your idealist worldview, doesn't mean there are none.

>debunk these images

Do you think that people like Kamenev and Zinoviev, who basically exposed party's plans for October by printing them in a fucking newspaper are good examples of "old bolsheviks"? Is this the hill you want to die on? Explain to me how a good bolsheviks can do such things/

In the april of 1917 the party consisted of 30k memebers. By the october it was around 10 times as that. Why picture of a dozen people should be used to represent pruges? Cherry picking at it's finest.

>>400386
>Beria literally admitted in 1953, that he was member of illegal anti soviet organization "Mussavat".
Are you back again, faggot? You have yet to provide any evidence that wasn't introduce by fucking Yakovlev.

>yeah, but the problem is that Bukharin, Zinoviev, Kamenev or Radek weren't involved in any. They were innocent in most of the things they were accused of.

Yes they were. The evidence was damning and even Trotsky did not object to their guilt at the time, only that he himself was innocent.
>>

 No.400400

>>400394
Hm. But Trotsky is a proNazi liar and falsifier. Why should we believe him that they were guilty?
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 No.400403

>>400386
>Beria literally admitted in 1953, that he was member of illegal anti soviet organization "Mussavat"
He was arrested and executed with no defence by revisionists who led the USSR down the drain, what they say he said holds no weight. The Communist writer Bill Bland has written about this and argued quite convincingly that Beria was a committed Marxist-Leninist.
http://ml-review.ca/aml/BLAND/DOCTORS_CASE_FINAL.htm
>so did local officials in Nazi Germany. Or anywhere else. snitching exists. so?
Interesting that your first reaction is to compare to fascist Germany. Very Tim Snyder. In a proletarian dictatorship which involves all of the working class, revolutionary vigilance takes place at all levels. It's the same in Cuba today with local committees designed to root out counterrevolution. Communists make no excuses for our repression of the bourgeoisie and traitorous elements by the proletarian state.
>Bukharin, Zinoviev, Kamenev or Radek weren't involved in any.
The trials, which were conducted freely and fairly as even the American ambassador to the USSR stated, suggest otherwise. And frankly these people were of little use to communism.
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 No.400405

>>400400
It means that the evidence of their guilt was so damning that even capitalist cocksucker like Trotsky didn't think he could deny it.

Do you even understand how logic works, shitlib?
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 No.400406

>>400403
>The trials, which were conducted freely and fairly as even the American ambassador to the USSR stated, suggest otherwise. And frankly these people were of little use to communism.
Seriously we are going over this for like hudredth time already. I guess that is their tactic - post bullshit until people would be tired to debunk it and then conclude that they won.
>>

 No.400407

>>400405
But Trotsky was probably just lying and fueling this situation while he himself being the real guilty party, but managing to pin everything on his rivals
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 No.400408

>>400407
Take your meds.
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 No.400411

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>>400394
>nooooo you can't read!!!!1
no u
>doesn't mean there are none.
then where are they? where is your material, materialist?

>nooooooooo they weren't bolsheviks because I don't like them!!!!!1

ok, retard

> Kamenev and Zinoviev, who basically exposed party's plans for October by printing them in a fucking newspaper

no, they didn't, lol

>Cherry picking at it's finest.

<showing photo of the first soviet government and the highest ranks of the army and komsomol is cherrypicking

ok retard 2


>Are you back again, faggot? You have yet to provide any evidence that wasn't introduce by fucking Yakovlev.

do you have some daddy fetish for Yakovlev, retard?

read this and then talk, cretin http://istmat.info/node/22226

>The evidence was damning

it was so damning that they relied only on testimonies, lol
>>

 No.400413

>>400408
Says the person who thinks that Bukharin/Zinoviev/Trotsky was an ally of Hitler and helped plan Barbarossa as early as 1917, was planning to murder Lenin and wanted to destroy the USSR and the party.
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 No.400421

>>400403
>He was arrested and executed with no defence by revisionists who led the USSR down the drain
the mussavat thing was the only thing he admitted at the trial, he refused every other accusation.

funny, how these retarded trials without any actual evidence are bed when it's done by "revisionists"

>nooooooo you are Tim Snyder

ok

>In a proletarian dictatorship which involves all of the working class, revolutionary vigilance takes place at all levels.

gibberish. just say that snitching and political trials are good when it's done by guys you like

>even the American ambassador to the USSR stated

yeah, the trials were good because american ambassador said it, ok
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 No.400426

>>400411
>no, they didn't, lol
They literally did. In the newspaper "Новая жизнь" at 23 of October, two weeks before revolution.

You are either completely retarded or this is just some pathetic attempt at trolling. In either case, you have been btfod to the point you need to deny actual events happening. No point in actually arguing with you any further till you at least admit this.

>read this and then talk, cretin http://istmat.info/node/22226

By 8 of august beria was most likely already dead. Unlike defendants of the moscow trials he recieved no cross examination, no open trial. nothing like this. It's funny how you screech about "show trials" in that case, but this testimony you take at face value despite it being much more suspicious in every regard. Typical liberal double standards.

>it was so damning that they relied only on testimonies, lol

So you will have no problem actually showing this with counrt transcripts, right?
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 No.400431

>>400413
Zinoviev and Kamenev literally exposed bolshevik's plans for revolution in 1917. Trotsky's CV is even worse than that.

You can deny reality all you want, but take your meds at least.
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 No.400436

>>400421
>funny, how these retarded trials without any actual evidence are bed when it's done by "revisionists"
No, what is funny is how you can claim that open trials done in presense of the foreign ambassadors and journalists are fake, but closed trial with no witnesses can be relied on. You just exposed that you will take any "evidence" that will support your conclusion, regardless of wherever it is true or not.
>>

 No.400456

>>400426
>They literally did. In the newspaper "Новая жизнь" at 23 of October, two weeks before revolution.
they only said that they are against violent uprising. how is that "revealing the plans of the party", dear retard?

>By 8 of august beria was most likely already dead.

take your meds, lol

>So you will have no problem actually showing this with counrt transcripts, right?

So you don't have problem to point out in the protocols where they use material evidence?

http://istmat.info/node/59103
http://istmat.info/files/uploads/52434/process_antisovetskogo_trockistskogo_centra_1937.pdf
http://istmat.info/node/40262

>nooooo it wasn't an open trials

i don't care if the trials were open or not, you imbecile. I said that Beria denied every accusation agianst him during the trial, except the mussavat thing, so there is no reason to not believe him. except maybe MUH YAKOVLEV!!!1
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 No.400458

>>400421
>the mussavat thing was the only thing he admitted at the trial, he refused every other accusation.
Where did he admit it? His position was that he worked under instruction from local communists. And as the whole thing was behind closed doors it casts doubt on the whole affair. The Khrushchevites heaped endless lies on the Stalin period and Beria was the main target for his role. Beria was the one who ended the actual wreckers in state security and did an excellent job in ensuring the USSR had nuclear weapons.
>funny, how these retarded trials without any actual evidence are bed when it's done by "revisionists"
Because there's a difference between trumped up secret executions of genuine Marxist Leninists and those of anticommunists.
>gibberish. just say that snitching and political trials are good when it's done by guys you like
Nothing to do with my personal likes and dislikes but the necessity of class rule. Frankly compared to the early years of the Cheka, the trials of the 1930s look very soft indeed. If you want to call workers defending their state snitches then so be it. Better that than letting the scum roam freely.
>yeah, the trials were good because american ambassador said it, ok
It reflects what was actually happening at the time, not what bourgeois "historians" and prostitutes of capital say 80 years later behind
mountains of anti-Soviet fabrications . Same with the "invasion of Poland". At the time it was not perceived as such.
>>

 No.400468

>>400456
>they only said that they are against violent uprising. how is that "revealing the plans of the party", dear retard?
Are you really daft or are you pretending very well? They exposed the intention of bolsheviks to overthrow Provisional government. If it wasn't so fucking incompetent and unpopular it may have cost bolsheviks revolution. You are a fucking idiot.

Those faggots should've been shot right there.

>take your meds, lol

after you, schizo

>So you don't have problem to point out in the protocols where they use material evidence?

So, you can't. Good to know that you have no argument actually.

>i don't care if the trials were open or not, you imbecile.

I know that you don't. You only care if it suits your purpose. Like i said, double standards.

The trial was performed after a military coup it was a closed trial without any unaffiliated witnesses to see it. I can dismiss it without second thought.
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 No.400482

>>400431
The did not. Thry resigned the CC and wrote thst the party shouldnt do revolution. They were then soon back onboard and started working according to the party line. What does a political conflict in 1917 have to do with the 1936 situation.
>>

 No.400484

>>400421
Not only the ambassador, but also Trotsky
>>

 No.400510

>>400482
>The did not. Thry resigned the CC and wrote thst the party shouldnt do revolution.
Imagine you are planning military uprising IN SECRET. Then some guy publishes article in a newspaper saying "Hey, we shouldn't do military uprising". What do you call it?

>They were then soon back onboard and started working according to the party line

They wormed themself back in because they supported Lenin on Brest peace. They shouldn't have been let back in, obviously.

The point i made is that those "old bolsheviks" had a history of actual betrayal of party and communism so it's not all that surprising that they did it again later. And obviously it's not just Zinoviev and Kamenev, it is true for most of the other "old bolsheviks" (which is nothing but a trot meme btw).

The real question is not "how could they have betrayed revolution" but "how the fuck party let them havy important position after their numerous fuck ups". The answer is that a) bolsheviks had to compromise because the lacked administrative resources so they wanted any barely coimpetent person on board, since even with that they were already stretched all over the place. Good part of new government was former mensheviks, SRs and even whites b) they were inspired by French revolution very much, to the point where they tried to call any happening of their times by the names from French revolution times (i.e. termidor, bonapartism), they didn't want to make same mistake of purging too much and ending up killing each other so they erred on the side of coution too much and forgave where they shouldn't have. I mean, they let white guard general Krasnov out on his FUCKING WORD OF HONOR that he wouldn't participate in military action against bolsheviks anymore. I don't think i need to mention that it failed miserably. Not only Krasnov participated in civil war and even in wwii, but even his sons and grandsons particiapted in communist killing in LatAm later on.

>Frankly compared to the early years of the Cheka, the trials of the 1930s look very soft indeed

It is exactly opposite imo. If you read trials like процесс Промпартии or процесс Главтопа, you would see that perpetrators are getting off with but a slap on their wrist. I think it is exactly why the nedd of large scale purges arised. If bolsheviks were not as retardedly humanist and soft in the 20s they wouldn't need those purges in 30s.
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 No.400516

>>400468
>They exposed the intention of bolsheviks to overthrow Provisional government.
yeah, because bolsheviks were totally hiding their intention to overthrow the government. Especially after April theses and the "July days". nah, Kerensky wasn't suspecting anything, he was waiting for Kamenevs article.

>So, you can't. Good to know that you have no argument actually.

you have none. because there are was no material evidence at the court : )

>I know that you don't. You only care if it suits your purpose. Like i said, double standards.

I wasn't talking about that at all, little illiterate moron : )

>>400458
>Where did he admit it? His position was that he worked under instruction from local communists.
you can read this. his actual position was that he was working for them, but did nothing wrong. he also refuses the accussation that he had contacts with the british intelligence through "Mussavat". he also admitted that Maisky was tortured (beaten) during one of his interrogations.

>Beria was the one who ended the actual wreckers in state security and did an excellent job in ensuring the USSR had nuclear weapons.

he was also first to release thousands of GULAG prisoners and rehabilitate people who sentenced in the "Doctor's case". weird. Kruschev is bad for doing this but Beria is ok?

>If you want to call workers defending their state snitches then so be it.

gibberish again. you can call any snitching "defending the state".

>It reflects what was actually happening at the time

it reflects a personal opinion of someone who wasn't even insider. Personal opinion of anyone isn't a proof of anything
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 No.400518

>>

 No.400534

>>400516
>yeah, because bolsheviks were totally hiding their intention to overthrow the government. Especially after April theses and the "July days". nah, Kerensky wasn't suspecting anything, he was waiting for Kamenevs article.
You never read April theses, didn't you? You haven't read anything from what you refer too, it seems. April theses did not call for overthrowing the Providional government. It called for "no support for Provision government" and for power to soviets (it means councils). God, i hate you fucking historylets.

There is also a difference between "they are gonna maybe attack you some day" and "they are preparing to attack already". The later would cost bolsheviks reovlution or at least a lot more lives if the Provsional government wouldn't be so popular that they only could get the support of woman's battalion and a couple of companies of junkers. And even they surrendered as soon as they saw who is coming for them.

Conclusion - you don't know shit about history of revolution.

>because there are was no material evidence at the court : )

Shitload of it, but you refuse to read. No sruprise.

>I wasn't talking about that at all

Work on your reading comprehension, liberal shitstain. You tried to dodge the fact that you rely on conclusions of a kangaroo court while trying to argue against fair and square open trial with unaffiliated witnesses. I caught you on this. You have no actual standards of evidence, you use what suits your conclusion only. Another liberal btfod.
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 No.400538

>>400456
>I said that Beria denied every accusation agianst him during the trial, except the mussavat thing, so there is no reason to not believe him.
He literally denies that too.

ВОПРОС: Таким образом, вам всегда было вполне очевидно, что мусаватизм является агентурой английского империализма?

ОТВЕТ: Да.

ВОПРОС: Таким образом, активно сотрудничая в мусаватистской контрразведке, вы хорошо понимали, что являетесь вместе с тем сотрудником английской разведки?

ОТВЕТ: Я это отрицаю.
>>

 No.400548

>>400538
he denies that he was collaborating with the britsh intelligence not mussavat, lol

>>400534
>There is also a difference between "they are gonna maybe attack you some day" and "they are preparing to attack already".

<«Взять на себя инициативу вооруженного восстания в настоящий момент, при данном соотношении общественных сил, независимо и за несколько дней до съезда Советов было бы недопустимым, гибельным для дела революции и пролетариата шагом»


yeah, they literally talk about concrete date and hour and totally not speak in vague terms, you cripple.

how is that different from april these, highly literate smartass?

>Shitload of it, but you refuse to read. No sruprise.

there is none. you just refuse to read it :)

>I caught you on this.

You caught yourself shitting in your pants, lol. it was you who started talking about le open trials not me, lel
>>

 No.400566

>>400548
>he denies that he was collaborating with the britsh intelligence not mussavat, lol
Why are you so stupid? NOWHERE in this documents he admits on working with them. He was asked a loaded question. You are truly shit for brains.

>yeah, they literally talk about concrete date and hour and totally not speak in vague terms, you cripple.

You don't need a specific date, all you need to know is that they are planning to do that as soon as they could. It is enough. It was enough for provisional government to try and muster all military that they could. Thankfully it wasn't amount to much, like i said earlier.

>how is that different from april these, highly literate smartass?

Very different. For starter, there is not talk about military uprising in april theses, you illiterate mongoloid.

Again, you show that you just can't read to save your own life.

>there is none. you just refuse to read it :)

Fake passports, weapons, letters, money trails etc. But we already established that you don't actually read documents you refer to. Like in case of Beria being a spy.

>it was you who started talking about le open trials not me, lel

So, do you actually admit Moscow trials being legitimate? Otherwise i don't see what is the excuse you are trying to make here.

You are already btfod on all your pathetic excuses for arguments. Why keep shitting yourself in public?
>>

 No.400567

>>400516
>you can read this. his actual position was that he was working for them, but did nothing wrong. he also refuses the accussation that he had contacts with the british intelligence through "Mussavat".
Assuming the document is accurate, it's possible he was acting as a double agent within it. He was quite a cunning man. Nonetheless by 1953 he was obviously a firm communist. Which brings to the next point.

>he was also first to release thousands of GULAG prisoners and rehabilitate people who sentenced in the "Doctor's case". weird.


http://www.lalkar.org/article/3403/the-doctors-plot-a-presentation-made-by-paul-cannon-to-the-stalin-society-in-london-in-december-2019
>It was Bill Bland’s contention that Beria released the Doctors as part of a broader and more general overhaul of a number of other decisions that had included the arrest and purging of Marxist-Leninists. That seems sensible to this writer. It was also comrade Bill Bland’s contention that this situation was a trick, a ‘feint’ played on Beria to release a group of revisionists quite rightly suppressed. It was the only way to undo the unjust purges which had been directed against the Marxist-Leninists.

Plenty of Marxist Leninists opposed to the revisionists were likely killed by the Khrushchevites, not just in the USSR but the likes of Bierut abroad as well.

>gibberish again. you can call any snitching "defending the state".

Not sure why you have such a grudge against workers exericisng vigilance. Every serious communist must be on the lookout for bourgeois influence. The Cheka existed for a reason, and it's this reason the USSR had the very effective Smersh, also led by another ally of Beria, Abakumov.

>it reflects a personal opinion of someone who wasn't even insider.

Given the usual lies the bourgeoisie heaps on the trials, it's telling that their first hand witness who was actually there deemed it fair. That holds some weight. Being an insider doesn't automatically grant one special knowledge especially if there's no secrecy and clandestine action.
>>

 No.400572

>>400567
>Assuming the document is accurate, it's possible he was acting as a double agent within it.
Nowhere in document Beria admits on working with musavatists. This fucker can't even read his own "proofs" properly.
>>

 No.400575

>>400516
>it reflects a personal opinion of someone who wasn't even insider.
If the trials were conducted without any evidence, like you claim, how much of an insider a person like Davis or Pritt (both experienced lawyers) need to be to actually understand that the trials are a sham if they are actually being present at those trials?
>>

 No.400598

>>400510
>It is exactly opposite imo. If you read trials like процесс Промпартии or процесс Главтопа, you would see that perpetrators are getting off with but a slap on their wrist. I think it is exactly why the nedd of large scale purges arised.
I was mainly talking about the actions during the civil war and intervention. Understandably they didn't have the time for lengthy trials.
>>

 No.400627

>>400598
Sorry then, i misunderstood you. Still, even then they were a bit soft. Krasnov release alone is a proof imo.
>>

 No.400634

>>400566
>Why are you so stupid? NOWHERE in this documents he admits on working with them. He was asked a loaded question. You are truly shit for brains.
you are retard. he was working in mussavat, either as double agent or not, both sides confirm this, lol. you are a cripple :)

>Very different. For starter, there is not talk about military uprising in april theses, you illiterate mongoloid.

yeah, because according to Lenin, "revolution" is always peaceful. you are illiterate cripple :)

plus you didn't explain, how the vague text of Kamenev and Zinoviev was actually a betrayal. In which world is saying that "violent uprising woudln't help us at this moment" a snitching for cops and helping the counterrevolution? Also, redactor of "Novaya Zhizn" was Maxim Gorky was he a counterrevolutionary for allowing such to be printed in the newspaper?

>Fake passports, weapons, letters, money trails etc.

there were no weapons brought to the trial, brainlet.
and the only time the one fake passport and magazine "Byulleten Opozicii" was mentioned was in my post here, lol>>398932
(inb4 it wasn't posted by you, it was posted by Yakovlev!!!1)
but a passport and a newspaper aren't a proof of the things they were accussed. there is no evidence of them collaborating with Germany and Japan, there is no evidence of them doing a sabotage, there is no evidence of them assasinating anyone. keep coping. :)

>So, do you actually admit Moscow trials being legitimate? Otherwise i don't see what is the excuse you are trying to make here.

that I didn't talk at all about trials being bad for being open/closed, lol. that's what you were accusing me of ,moron. looks like you are lost in your own cretinism.

>Why keep shitting yourself in public?

he said after he shat his pants for the sixth time
>>

 No.400640

so where are the fabled proofs of sabotages, assasinations, conspiring by nazis and all of the other things done by the trotskyist opposition? not a single one was presented.

seems like the trials were fake.
>>

 No.400642

>>400575
>If the trials were conducted without any evidence, like you claim, how much of an insider a person like Davis or Pritt (both experienced lawyers) need to be to actually understand that the trials are a sham if they are actually being present at those trials?
<NOOOOOO!!!!1 THEY ARE LAWYERS THAT MEANS THE TROTSKO-NAZI CONSPIRACY WAS REAL!! LAWYERS ARE NEVER WRONG!!!
>>

 No.400662

>>400567
>rehabilitation of the doctors was a plot against Beria
meds. now.
>>

 No.400663

>>400634
>you are retard. he was working in mussavat, either as double agent or not, both sides confirm this, lol. you are a cripple :)
Show me where he explicitly agrees to that. The only thing in that document is him answering the loaded question and only rejecting part of it. It does not constitutr as admission.

>yeah, because according to Lenin, "revolution" is always peaceful. you are illiterate cripple :)

Way to shift goalposts. April theses say nothing about revolution, baby lib. Only about power to soviets and rejection of Kerensky's government.

>plus you didn't explain, how the vague text of Kamenev and Zinoviev was actually a betrayal.

I did, you just put you fat fingers in your oily ears and screamed "lalalala can't hear you". They exposed the intention of bolsheviks to organize military uprising which lead to Provisionary government having time to prepare for that.

Answer me this, if it wasn't a betrayal, why Lenin asked for them to be removed from CC after that? And they were removed. Was he an illiterate cripple like me or what?

>Also, redactor of "Novaya Zhizn" was Maxim Gorky was he a counterrevolutionary for allowing such to be printed in the newspaper?

He didn't do a good job obviously. Another try to deflect and shift goalposts.

>and the only time the one fake passport and magazine "Byulleten Opozicii" was mentioned was in my post here, lol

So apparentely there was evidence. You said before that there was absolutely none. So which is it? Or are you again just using whatever arguments that are suitable at the moment?

That guy is an idiot lib just like you. He is wrong there was a lot more than that. But you don't really care anyway.

>that I didn't talk at all about trials being bad for being open/closed, lol. that's what you were accusing me of ,moron. looks like you are lost in your own cretinism.

I will explain to you like i would to a slightly retarded toddler. Open trials are more legitimate than close trials because there are unaffilliated witnesses. So you can't rely on a conclusions of a closed trial made by perpetrators of a military coup but at the same time rekect any conclusions of an open trial conducted before representatives of a rival nations, who were professional lawyers. It's called double standards. You either apply same standard to every piece of evidence or to none at all. You just take some document that is suited for your position but reject those that don't, for example you say that moscow trials didn't have material evidence and only worked with testimonies, but you are completely fine using a testimony of Beria without any material evidence. You are not working from evidence to conclusion, you are working from conclusion to evidence. And it ABSOLUTELY DOESN'T MATTER if you mentioned the trials being closed or open, what matters is that you cherry pick your sources. You can only prove me wrong by providing specific standards of evidence that you use that would show Beria trial being more legitimate compared to Moscow trials.

In conclusion, you are a pseud.
>>

 No.400664

I only recently finished reading "On The Opposition" by Stalin recently.
It documents all the CC meetings of 1924-1927 which were the years of the fight against the "Left Opposition" as Trotsky, Kamenev and Zinoviev were all still in the Central Committee.

You see Stalin er on the side of caution nonstop especially with the Oppositions use of French revolutionary language like "thermidor" etc.

Anyway… Even as far back as 1927 Trotsky/Zinoviev and Kamenev were hoping on an invasion to Soviet Union for them to come to power. These talks were public and the CC would've distributed these to all party members at the time. So you see even in public in 1927 (when they were still in the CC and not thrown out the party) the Left Opposition was inclined to foreign invasion of the USSR.

<Until now it was difficult to suppose that, low as it had sunk, the opposition would waver on the question of the unqualified defence of our country. Now, however, we must not only assume, but assert, that the attitude of the present leaders of the opposition is a defeatist one. How else is one to interpret Trotsky's stupid and absurd thesis about a Clemenceau experiment in the event of a new war against the U.S.S.R.? Can there be any doubt that this is a sign that the opposition has sunk still lower?


<Until now it was difficult to suppose that the opposition would ever hurl against our Party the stupid and incongruous accusation of being a Thermidor party. In 1925, when Zalutsky first talked about Thermidor tendencies in our Party, the present leaders of the opposition emphatically dissociated themselves from him. Now, however, the opposition has sunk so low that it goes farther than Zalutsky and accuses the Party of being a Thermidor party. What I cannot understand is how people who assert that our Party has become a Thermidor party can remain in its ranks.


<Until now the opposition tried "merely" to organise separate factional groups in the sections of the Comintern. Now, however, it has gone to the length of openly organising a new party in Germany, the party of those counter-revolutionary scoundrels Maslow and Ruth Fischer, in opposition to the existing Communist Party in Germany. That stand is one of directly splitting the Comintern. From the formation of factional groups in the sections of the Comintern to splitting the Comintern – such is the road of degradation that the leaders of the opposition have travelled.

Stalin, JOINT PLENUM OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE AND THE CENTRAL CONTROL COMMISSION OF THE C.P.S.U.(B.), July 1927

http://www.marx2mao.com/Stalin/JPCC27.html
Can anyone elaborate on the context and meaning of the comment " Trotsky's stupid and absurd thesis about a Clemenceau experiment in the event of a new war against the U.S.S.R." ?
>>

 No.400679

>>400642
Do you have an actual argument? They were professional lawyers quite respected in the field. My argument was that if as you claim the trial was conducted without any evidence whatsoever, you don't need a professional lawyer to see that it's a sham, but there were actually several of them present. How do you explain them not noticing this? "They were wrong" is not really an explanation, it's a cope.
>>

 No.400986

>>400662
A deceit, yes.
>>

 No.401183

>>400663
>Show me where he explicitly agrees to that.
here
https://istmat.info/node/22301
and here
https://istmat.info/node/22146

when asked about who send him to the job in the mussavatist counterinteligence, he isn't able to name anyone. he being an asshole english agent might as well be a Khruschevite fantasy, but it only shows that Krushchev utilised very well his experience from 1937/38 when he was a dindunuffin fighter against trotskyites :)

>I did, you just put you fat fingers in your oily ears and screamed "lalalala can't hear you". They exposed the intention of bolsheviks to organize military uprising which lead to Provisionary government having time to prepare for that.

you didn't explain anything. you put your fat fingers in your oily ears and screamed "lalalala can't hear you" and ignored the fact that there were the already mentioned "July days" and that the bolsheviks were never hiding that they want to overthrow the provisional government. you also failed to prove how is saying "there are comrades who want a violent uprising" giving an echo to government?

>NOOOOO YOU MOVE THE GOALPOSTERINOS!!!!1

<LOL, DO YOU ACKSHUALLY THINK LENERINO WAS STUPID?
I don't give a shit about his intelligence, unlike you I am not a retarded cultist :)

>the only evidence brought to the court were a magazine and a false passport. this however doesn't prover the sabotages, the assasinations, the collaborations with foreign powers like Nazi Germany

<LOL, XDDD ARE YOU CHANGING YOUR POSITIONS??? THIS EVIDENCE TOTALLY PROVES A TROTSKO NAZI CONSPIRACY!!1 CHECK MATE
retard

>mucho texto about open trials

don't care. didn't read. keep talking about your open trials, I've already told you I don't care. but it is futile to explain you this, you are a fat cripple

>In conclusion, you are a pseud.

In conclusion you have down syndrome
>>

 No.401185

>>400679
>They were wrong" is not really an explanation, it's a cope.
"They liked the court" is not really a proof of anything, it's a cope when you can't prove that the whole trotsko-nazi conspiracy is a made up shit.
>>

 No.401373

>>401183
>https://istmat.info/node/22301
<Между тем Вам хорошо известно, что в мусават[ист]скую разведку я был послан партией и что вопрос этот разбирался в ЦК АКП(б) в 1920 году в присутствии Вас, т. Стасовой, Каминского, Мирза Давуд Гусейнова, Нариманова, Саркиса, Рухулла Ахундова, Буниатзаде и друг. (В 1925 г. я передал Вам официальную выписку о решении ЦК АКП(б) по этому вопросу, которым я был совершенно реабилитирован, т. к. факт моей работы в контрразведке с ведома партии был подтвержден заявлениями тт. Мирза Давуд Гусейнова, Касум Измайлова и др.) Тов. Датико, который передаст Вам это письмо, расскажет подробности.

>https://istmat.info/node/22146

<В 1920 году в адрес бывшего в то время секретаря ЦК КП(б) Азербайджана Каминского поступило заявление о моем сотрудничестве в контрразведке в пользу мусаватистов. Это заявление было предметом специального разбора на Президиуме ЦК АКП(б), и я был реабилитирован.
<По совету Гуссейнова я подал заявление начальнику контрразведки об увольнении с работы и был уволен беспрепятственно. Истинной причиной моего ухода из контрразведки являлось то, что эта контрразведка стала полностью муса-ватистской.

Do you even read the stuff that you post? You do you just hope that everybody here is as much of an illiterate brainlet as you and will just take you at your word? He was there literally at the behest of the party Hummet (which later became part of the soviet government) and left after it became fully musavatist.

>ignored the fact that there were the already mentioned "July days" and that the bolsheviks were never hiding that they want to overthrow the provisional government.

I already said that it is a completely different thing. Warning the enemy of the imminent military uprising is a betrayal, clear and simple.

Again i will ask you, if it wasn't a betrayal why were they removed from CC after that? Why was Lenin angry with them if it was an allright thing to do? You tried to deflect this question because you have no answer.

>didn't read.

We already established that.

You have been btfod on every position that you held. You refusal to admit that matters about as much as flatearther's or creationist's rejection of science.

>>401185
>"They liked the court" is not really a proof of anything
The fuck is "liking the court" has anything to do with it? The question is why unaffiliated and hostile people with experience in this field did not notice such a glaring flaw in the trial like lack of any material evidence whatsoever? How do you explain that without making them retards or crypto stalinists?
>>

 No.402767

>>398757
Because liberals can't stop crying and Stalin is making them asshurt yet again because they have the legal and political understanding of the trials of amoebas.

>>383476
It was a formal event of the Germans abiding by the updated treaty of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and handing over areas that were agreed upon as belonging under Soviet influence. They marched out and the USSR marched in.
A formality of diplomatic agreement for the sake of PR, nothing more.
>>

 No.402773

>>383457
The Soviet delegation with the Nazi delegation is seeing off the German forces and LATER the incoming Soviet forces, this is neither a parade nor is it a united action, but a formal diplomatic posturing of the area being passed from German hands to Soviet hands.
>>

 No.402778

>>382524
>1.7 million deserters
Where the hell did you get that number? The collective collaborationist military forces under German service didn't even reach half a million
>>

 No.402786


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